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DEVBLOG: MINING UNITS 101 - Discussion Thread


NQ-Deckard

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1 hour ago, Raiivein said:

We have over 7000 scans, we worked hard for those scans, but you don't want to give us an advantage, fine.

 

I have totally maxed mining and terraforming talents. I can get through the dirt and mine literally millions of liters of ore a day, by myself.

 

Under the new structure, with limited calibrations, how can anyone with 1 account ever hope to amass anything? I have 6 accounts. All six accounts calibrating synergized mining units will take more than a week to mine what I can mine in an hour now, free mining on any planet.

 

Unless you plan to DRASTICALLY reduce material costs or enact a way for us to mine more efficiently with our own time investment, you are setting a hard cap on what can be mined that is minuscule compared to what we can mine now. And now we have to pay taxes to even mine.

 

And asteroids in PVP space is not a replacement for planetary mining. Also why are you refunding mining talents if you can still use them on asteroids?

 

I understand you had a database issue, believe me my high end computer struggled to dig what I dug. But you have gutted the core game play of this game and created a hard cap on the resources an individual or small group can gather while increasing the cost to do so.

 

I think our manual mining single scoop record is about 525L. Please tell me how going from 300-400 tier 1 every 5 seconds is going to be replaced by 100L an hour? I guess if I only mined 3 minutes a day it is an improvement. But as someone who's personal record was almost 6 million ore in one day, your new system leaves a lot to be desired particularly from those that are will to put in the time and effort to get ahead.

 

Your new system will promote lots of accounts and afk game play. May be good for subscription sales, but is horrible for the game in the long run. All hexes will be claimed. Then after you finally get a good hex you will enact pvp and make us defend it 24/7.

 

You all have your sights set right down the crapper and are destroying the gather/crafting aspect of this game which draws the majority of your existing fan base. You want to cater to the PVP community because PVP games have the highest player base.

 

Problem is your PVP interface is frankly boring. Compared to the likes of Elite Dangerous PVP feels more like an arcade game and less like a space simulator.

 

Frankly I don't care about PVP besides the obvious and inevitable march towards PVP everywhere with making it very difficult to manufacture what is needed to even PVP effectively.

 

So mine forever to make items that you will allow anyone to destroy.  Add a tax because you can't figure out how to create a functional economy.  Having bots buy ore sets a cap on what anything is worth.  Make it difficult to mine and the cost of ore goes through the roof making the manufacture of anything not worthwhile.

 

I hardly play this game anymore if it is because of the pending operations while digging the the dirt or because I see the writing on the wall that you a making a slow methodical march towards and all out PVP MMO when that is not the community that is bolstering your subscriptions.

 

Sure watching someone that talks like a used car salesman that has had too much coffee create explosions on the screen is more fun to watch then the player that spends days, weeks even months mining and creating structures and ships that I know you will eventually allow the first to annihilate the second in the hopes it will sell more subscriptions.

 

Good luck with that. 

you can mine over 2-3 mill liter ore on 1 h? wow mate.. you looks like a hero?

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While I am a care bear, I think the idea of automated mining is an interesting one, so long as they give us something to balance to loss of play time for care bears, like more things to manufacture. Wheels and pistons would be excellent but I think I am dreaming on that.

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1 hour ago, Feriniya said:

You are from Eve, I see by your avatar ... Well, in Eve, too, the resources are endless :) And I will reveal even more mystery - in all MMOs the resources are endless, yeah .. If you did not know.
 

And the mining of miners will not allow you to have more than 48 miners per character, which will give you + -150,000 liters of ore per day, which even a week it will be several times less than you would dig with your hands. And finding tiles and tiles with a sufficient number of t3 + is no longer so and easy as you described to yourself here. So you obviously did not attend the PTS and did not try to figure out how it all works .. not to mention the decrease in the mining efficiency after 2 days.
 

Do not worry that there is a lot of ore, here people worry that there will be little of it.

 In Eve you spend time to collect resources. With this design (once you deploy your setup) you just passively conjure them without sinking time. Thats whats meant by "infinite resources"

 

The Eve experience dictates that people can and will acquire dozens of alts if it means low effort passive income. Not just ingame income but also illegal RMT income. Eventually 48 miners worth of monthly ore will approximate 7 dollars which sounds extremely cheap to me.

 

People are worried they wont be able to mine large quantities. They do not see yet ore will be so abundant you will just do a couple of missions then buy huge quantities off narket, from people who mass deploy the passive miners.

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1 hour ago, Feriniya said:

you can mine over 2-3 mill liter ore on 1 h? wow mate.. you looks like a hero?

I can mine 100k an hour free farming on any planet, on a super I can mine 400k an hour if it is tier 1.  I had a Saturday that I mined nothing but supers for 18 hours. We had quite the backlog.

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I am not a huge fan of Demeter patch and the new coming features. But well, Demeter it's like the winter, you can hate it but it will still come.

Here is my feedback:

First you really need to improve communication:
I can understand that wiping the scans will make everyone at the same level on Demeter, but you can't say 1 month ago "Old scan are valid" and then flip your mind and change that.
We are playing a lot of hours by week and making plan on the future. Like in all MMO I have played, when a patch comes you prepare yourself for it. People have taken time to scan planet to get more scan to be prepare for the patch. 

One way of dealing with that could have be. "we are wiping scans older than x months".
Doing that you are preventing people that have prepare the patch to have loose all their time and for people that have very old scans, it's very easy to justify the removing of them.

Ore extraction should be more rewarding:
Some people were complaining about mining, I can understand that. But in other hand, because it was boring for some people it was rewarding for some others.
I lost the count on how many mega-node I have extracted, but every mega-node I have pulled out was very rewarding. 
First you had to scan for it and finding one was giving me a lot of joy every time.
Then when you finally mined it you were happy to have a very clean hole and a lot of ore in your pocket.

My new gameplay will be only pressing 2-5 buttons and waiting.... and waiting again. 
So every litter of ore will worth nothing in term of reward. 

New gameplays are more and more boring:
When a patch come in a game, you expect to have more content in terms of things interesting to do.

On patch 0.23:
You have introduce the schematics and it had a huge impact on the players. In term of gameplay it was not a new content, it's a restriction on current content. 
And with the exploits that some people had access (cheap schematics), you have added a huge gab between some players.

On patch 0.25:
You have introduce the mission system. First I was thinking, great it will add some content. But it's turned to be boring as hell.
Taking your container, pressing you key auto-pilot and waiting for 3h and thanks to the PvP (content made by player), we were able to kill some haulers. But you have stopped that also, by saying that using a spy on a ship was illegal without giving any alternative to PvPer to track ship in long distance.
And with the VR "exploit" you have let people get so many money that now the game is totally unbalanced.

On patch 0.26:
You have introduce asteroid mining and PvP shield. Again, first I was enthusiast with asteroid mining. But after having tested it I was very disappointed. It takes a lot of time, for a very tiny reward.
By doing that you are restricting the asteroid mining to people that can play more than 3h straight. 

And PvP shield have introduce so many bug that PvP was not playable for many weeks. And now that they work, it has reduce the creativity of people when it comes to build PvP ship. We are back to the cube meta (well now it's a rectangle).


On patch 0.27:
You are removing ground mining by replacing that with an afk mining.

Exploit should be fixed faster:
On every game you will have exploits, but the good game company try to fix them fast.

You should play more the game:
When we are watching the QA, many things that you say are disconnected from what game is. And you know should be more invested in what happening in your game. A good exemple is Sesch not knowing who Gottchar is.
If you were playing more the game you would see what people are doing, what they are expecting, etc...
Like in PvP, there is no way that you have done PvP. You would have change that directly.

Some positivism:
- Lately, it seems that you are listening a little bit more the community. That's a good point.
- You have done an awesome job on some relooking, making the game more beautiful.
- You have fixed some big exploit (stacking, warp)


Kind regards

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Bolus vs Basal

 

Automated mining is Basal.  Slow continuous predictable drip.  I have no problem with that.  Bolus is the large amount peak for immediate need.  They are eliminating Bolus except for PVP asteroids.  That is my complaint.  Sure having auto miners that allow my friends that log in a few times a week feel productive great.  But when we want to build rare engine super hauler, we get in the hole and start digging until we are done.  No longer an option.  There is more ore on any hex on Madis then any asteroid.  But now we have to go fly out into space and compete for the simplest of resources if we want more than the slow drip.  We will need to risk our ships just to be able to build ships.

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13 hours ago, NQ-Deckard said:

Fixed the 100/50 ~= 4 in the wording of the text! :)


Deckard, respectfully I don't understand why the tiles resource pools don't have values in increments of 50's or 100's whatever a L mining unit is worth when optimally calibrated... no one wants to lose 79L's per hour... but they don't want to throw down a mining unit for anything less that 100% optimal output.

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6 hours ago, Raiivein said:

I can mine 100k an hour free farming on any planet, on a super I can mine 400k an hour if it is tier 1. I had a Saturday that I mined nothing but supers for 18 hours. We had quite the backlog.

For sure.. but dont forget when you sleep and etc is continue mine.. And before you mine you need find it.. you not calculate this also.  And dont forget.. before t4 t5 also can easy mine.. now no.. and after 6-7 month same coming with t2 t3.. and after 1 y.. t1.. any way we need some system like this.. Also it can allowed for NQ control economy

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6 hours ago, Olmeca_Gold said:

 In Eve you spend time to collect resources. With this design (once you deploy your setup) you just passively conjure them without sinking time. Thats whats meant by "infinite resources"

 

The Eve experience dictates that people can and will acquire dozens of alts if it means low effort passive income. Not just ingame income but also illegal RMT income. Eventually 48 miners worth of monthly ore will approximate 7 dollars which sounds extremely cheap to me.

 

People are worried they wont be able to mine large quantities. They do not see yet ore will be so abundant you will just do a couple of missions then buy huge quantities off narket, from people who mass deploy the passive miners.

I do not really agree, EVE existed for 15 years with POS that dug the moons themselves and the player did not do anything for this AT ALL .. And now the citadels, they do not require anything .. they drag the resource themselves, a week after which you just collect the resource for 1 -2 hours. Planetary production, in Eve, also requires almost no action from you. And yes all of them - never finished. So .. DU doit now exactly the same.. so EVE not really good example if you wanna other system. But the miners will not be mining continuously, they will also need to be restarted and "run" the mini-game - which is roughly equal to planetary production in EVE.

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15 hours ago, Cergorach said:

@NQ-Deckard Don't take this personally, because this is a NQ issue, not a Deckard issue. But maybe NQ should just in the future shut the hell up on the forum, Dev Blogs, Discord, Twitch, and YouTube. Because everything that is said is just worth sh!te.

 

I just spend a LOT of the weekend on scanning AFTER it was said that scanner results would be kept.

 

DU Players be like: "NQ, communicate more!"

Also DU Players: "NQ, shut the hell up."

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14 hours ago, Torsten said:

This pisses me off. Not so much because of the scan wipe, I'd be happy either way. I'm pissed because less than a month ago (Oct 20th to be precise) you said that old scans would still be good. Then you turn 180 LESS THAN A MONTH LATER and say they wont

 

If you haven't decided, let us know you haven't decided. That's fine. Some things need careful consideration and feedback before making a decision. Don't plaster a big "Confirmation: Old scans will still be valid" and then double back on it as soon as you get a bit of push-back. Stick to your decision.

 

 

15 hours ago, Cergorach said:

I have no issue with it happening so much as that was stuff from the past, people will have profited from most of it (or not). The problem I have with it is, they first say one thing, then they do a 180... People have been preparing for the Demeter changes since the announcement, including scanning. They've created expectations and that is what bothers me.

 

NQ did the one thing that we, as players, kept asking them to do. Listen to our Feedback and implement it.

 

After the MAJORITY of players wanted them to remove old scans, they listened to our Feedback, and now you are complaining about them listening to the majority feedback of the community, and even lying that the majority did not want scans to have to be redone.

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44 minutes ago, decom70 said:

 

 

NQ did the one thing that we, as players, kept asking them to do. Listen to our Feedback and implement it.

 

After the MAJORITY of players wanted them to remove old scans, they listened to our Feedback, and now you are complaining about them listening to the majority feedback of the community, and even lying that the majority did not want scans to have to be redone.

 

Hypocrisy?

 

Majority? You have no data to back it up. All you got is a lot of unhappy people giving feedback that they didn't like their decision. Anyone happy with keeping the old scans went on happily with their day knowing that NQ said "Confirmed: Old scans will still be valid" There was no reason to try give feedback on that since it was a "done deal". Feedback like this will always be biased towards the negative

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1 minute ago, Torsten said:

 

Majority? You have no data to back it up. All you got is a lot of unhappy people giving feedback that they didn't like their decision. Anyone happy with keeping the old scans went on happily with their day knowing that NQ said "Confirmed: Old scans will still be valid" There was no reason to try give feedback on that since it was a "done deal". Feedback like this will always be biased towards the negative

 

Even the mere likes on the posts in this thread, approving of the removal of scans, show that more people that peruse these spicy threads agree with the removal of scans, then disagree. Besides, you first claimed that most people disagree with this change, so the burden of proof lies on with you.

 

There were sufficient discussions about the removal of scans here on the Forum, and that it should be done. More players wanted them gone, and also brought better arguments, at least in NQ's Opinion (and mine obviously). If you suddenly stop partaking in the forum, aka don't voice your opinion on it, and other peoples opinions, that is a you problem.

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It is an alpha/beta. If it was purely about saving the real cost of mining, NQ could just turn off mining and set up some NPCs as an ore output. No one would have to do any more scans or dig through the area or generate traffic with MiningUnits.
If it's purely about financially bridging the time to release, this would at least be the more pleasant choice for everyone. At the same time, players could then build more and enter PvP more quickly if the loss of the ships in the test phase is not a loss, because you can go to the NPC and get new ores.
At the moment I just don't understand what exactly NQ want to achieve with their decisions, as everything together doesn't make sense.
Maybe they should make an honest schedule for 2022/2023, publish it and then go and collect another round of money. Then sell annual packages with bonuses to have financial security for 2-5 years. At the time, I asked if you wanted to sell tiny moons for players as a secure zone. No taxes, no ore on it, but tied to the account and the purchased supporter package. Purely as a "style item on which players can build their own base in space as a tiny safe zone.
I wish NQ would treat us like equals and not like stupid customers that they just take the money from. Many of us are here to support this game and hope it will be a great SPiele. However, it seems that we are not being allowed to participate in the game and development at all and the point of the alpha/beta is hardly given.
In the end, players have nothing to lose, but NQ may lose many jobs. So I ask you to take players who want to help seriously. Listen to them and have a round of talks once a week. Not just a video from your side, but a real conversation between NQ and players. There are many possibilities, be it just a lifestream on twitch that we can join and talk to you. Is it so hard that we can work together to make the game successful?

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17 minutes ago, decom70 said:

 

Even the mere likes on the posts in this thread, approving of the removal of scans, show that more people that peruse these spicy threads agree with the removal of scans, then disagree. Besides, you first claimed that most people disagree with this change, so the burden of proof lies on with you.

 

There were sufficient discussions about the removal of scans here on the Forum, and that it should be done. More players wanted them gone, and also brought better arguments, at least in NQ's Opinion (and mine obviously). If you suddenly stop partaking in the forum, aka don't voice your opinion on it, and other peoples opinions, that is a you problem.

 

Your first problem is that you're trying to extrapolate what is said on the forums to be the views of the general playerbase. That has never worked in any game. Ever. Have you ever herd the term "the silent majority"? That's because most players don't partake in forums they just play the game. You're behaving like the 20 to 50 people on the forums are the entire playerbase, but if that was true NQ would be bankrupt a long time ago.

 

The way this was originally presented, as in "Confirmed: Old scans will still be valid" makes any kind of forum discussion on the matter completely biased against that. Players who agree have no reason to come to the forums to voice their anger because they are not angry. This is the root cause. NQ should never have confirmed something this controversial that they might change. If something is controversial and require feedback it needs to be presented as such

 

I have never claimed that most people were against removal of scans. I did say that most people that were angry were angry because NQ first said one thing and then did another. But I'll give you that I don't have proof of that either, only the impression I've gathered talking to people and reading the forums. That however does not relive you of the "burden of proof" to your claim that a "MAJORITY" of players wanted the scans gone and I look forward to reading that

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we will be clearing all scan results from the game when Demeter goes live...

 

Wait.... WHAT???

 

This means all the f**king hundreds of hours we spent on finding precious ores and the paying of f**king hundreds of millions of quanta in tax to own those territories AND the investments of buying the multiple f**king territory scanners AND building f**king special ships to do the scanning will ALL be in vain... THANK YOU NQ! with this decision you listen to the cry babies who will drop out of the game if they don't get it their way. They will always be dissatisfied... AND NOW you will loose a lot of veteran players spending so much wasteful energy and time and quanta on improving their status in DU. I think you underestimate the impact... RIP NQ.

 

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9 hours ago, Olmeca_Gold said:

People are worried they wont be able to mine large quantities. They do not see yet ore will be so abundant you will just do a couple of missions then buy huge quantities off narket, from people who mass deploy the passive miners.

 

This, very much. It's something NQ does not yet seem to realize.

also, the new mechnic is not just passive income, it is fairly easy to script and automate to the point where all you do is jump in a ship once a week and drop/dump ore on the markets. High volume passive ore generation sold at cut throat prices will still yield a good bit of quanta which can then be sold through RMT for well beyond the cost of the account and using free GFN accounts so not even needing to invest in expensive hardware to run the game.

 

This mechanic wil be end up being much much like EVE SP farms

 

EZ money.. Goldsellers Assemble..

 

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6 minutes ago, Jake Arver said:

 

This, very much. It's something NQ does not yet seem to realize.

also, the new mechnic is not just passive income, it is fairly easy to script and automate to the point where all you do is jump in a ship once a week and drop/dump ore on the markets. High volume passive ore generation sold at cut throat prices will still yield a good bit of quanta which can then be sold through RMT for well beyond the cost of the account and using free GFN accounts so not even needing to invest in expensive hardware to run the game.

 

This mechanic wil be end up being much much like EVE SP farms

 

EZ money.. Goldsellers Assemble..

 

Who is supposed to buy the ore? There are then only those who fly many missions who have quanta to buy ore. Will these players be enough to supply all the other players with quanta?
I rather think there will be an ore shortage. I can no longer deliver 200-500kl to the market every day to cover demand. How much kl do I get with how many MininUnits a day?

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10 minutes ago, Saedow said:

This means all the hundreds of hours we spent on finding precious ores and the paying of hundreds of millions of quanta in tax to own those territories AND the investments of buying the multiple territory scanners AND building special ships to do the scanning will ALL be in vain... THANK YOU NQ!

 

  1. You do realize that from your perspective the scans would be useless post Demeter anyway right?
  2. You do realize that his was announced as such weeka ago right?
  3. You did watch the VLOG where NQ explained that ore distribution will change and what you see now wil no longer be there right?
  4. You do understand that many now crying over this actually have other reasons to do so right?

 

Right?

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9 minutes ago, Torsten said:

 

Your first problem is that you're trying to extrapolate what is said on the forums to be the views of the general playerbase. That has never worked in any game. Ever. Have you ever herd the term "the silent majority"? That's because most players don't partake in forums they just play the game. You're behaving like the 20 to 50 people on the forums are the entire playerbase, but if that was true NQ would be bankrupt a long time ago.

 

What the majority of the playerbase on the forum thinks, is a strong Indicator for the entire rest of the playerbase. You cannot blame anyone for going against a silent majority, if they refuse to speak up.

 

12 minutes ago, Torsten said:

 

The way this was originally presented, as in "Confirmed: Old scans will still be valid" makes any kind of forum discussion on the matter completely biased against that. Players who agree have no reason to come to the forums to voice their anger because they are not angry. This is the root cause. NQ should never have confirmed something this controversial that they might change. If something is controversial and require feedback it needs to be presented as such

Yes, players who agree always have a reason to come here. As with literally every single update, there are people liking certain features, and not others. This also gets discussed on discord, which would not only be another indicator for them that this is being discussed, but it is also another place where NQ reads feedback. Same balance of opinions there, everytime I had lurked through it.

 

16 minutes ago, Torsten said:

I have never claimed that most people were against removal of scans. I did say that most people that were angry were angry because NQ first said one thing and then did another. But I'll give you that I don't have proof of that either, only the impression I've gathered talking to people and reading the forums. That however does not relive you of the "burden of proof" to your claim that a "MAJORITY" of players wanted the scans gone and I look forward to reading that

You are right with that first sentence, I must have mixed your comment up with someone elses.

People are always angry, no matter what NQ does. At this point, it is impossible for them to not get a mixed reaction, no matter what they do. And it, in parts, loops back to my second argument.

And with the majority of players wanting it gone, well, that too, loops back to my first point. If the majority of Forum users are against it, that is a major Indicator for the Rest of the playerbase. If not? Then NQ cannot be faulted for speaking up, or listening to feedback. Only for changing their decision so late.

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5 minutes ago, Jake Arver said:

 

  1. You do realize that from your perspective the scans would be useless post Demeter anyway right?
  2. You do realize that his was announced as such weeka ago right?
  3. You did watch the VLOG where NQ explained that ore distribution will change and what you see now wil no longer be there right?
  4. You do understand that many now crying over this actually have other reasons to do so right?

 

Right?

 

1. If I understood correctly from seeing one of the vlogs they said the scans would still be valid as to the ores that were scanned, not the quantity of course. NQ said the existing scans would still be valid... they said it...

2. I put time in playing the game, I don't have time to cry on the forums each day...

3. See 1.

4. No I don't understand, I think atleast 60% of the all the territories all over the galaxy haven't been scanned. There is still good stuff to be found. Let the players who worked their asses off keep their territories with the precious ores on them.

 

Right?

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Try the transscript I provided here and check your facts @Saedow ..

 

 

Many are crying becasue they full well understood the loophole NQ was creating by not removing scans and started preparing for this by scanning as much as they could.

While the existing distribution and volumes would no longer be valid, they would have an instant/remote view of the availability and volume of the actual ore in the tile without even going there. You could have been scanning tiles which are currently occupied and if they turn out to be valuable, wait it out to see if the owner does not pay their taxes.

 

The level of possible exploits in leaving the scans in the game is insane and NQ really had no choice but to remove them. They intially did not realize this it seems but now do, so they made the correct call and changed their minds.

 

Fair enough, throughout this their communication was terrible but they always said current ore distribution would change.

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8 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

Who is supposed to buy the ore? There are then only those who fly many missions who have quanta to buy ore. Will these players be enough to supply all the other players with quanta?

The general principle is that if there are too few players mining ore, then demand will result in ore prices increasing. And high ore prices would be and incentive for more players to start mining ore, which leads to more ore production and decreased prices. And so it goes round and round.

 

But...  For this self balancing system to function, there must also an ecosystem with other alternatives for players. Stuff to do while not mining that is actually fun to do, multiple ways to earn and spend money.  And this is the part that is lacking, and makes the DU economy and game as a whole not work.

 

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3 hours ago, Feriniya said:

I do not really agree, EVE existed for 15 years with POS that dug the moons themselves and the player did not do anything for this AT ALL .. And now the citadels, they do not require anything .. they drag the resource themselves, a week after which you just collect the resource for 1 -2 hours. Planetary production, in Eve, also requires almost no action from you. And yes all of them - never finished. So .. DU doit now exactly the same.. so EVE not really good example if you wanna other system. But the miners will not be mining continuously, they will also need to be restarted and "run" the mini-game - which is roughly equal to planetary production in EVE.

 

 

1) Passive moon mining in Eve was mostly controlled by cartels. People did spool many alts and spent effort to control them, There are severe differences in balance though. The resources gathered with passive moon mining was only good for a fraction of all the items to produce in the game (only tier 2 ships). DU passive mining lets you extract all resources needed for everything. And then, the amount of available t2 ore was limited with the number by all the moons (and most moons were bad). DU has the number of hexes as limit, but the ore output potential of all hexes is multitudes higher than the total ore all players need. T2 ore in Eve was still scarce despite passively accumulating. People couldn't limitlessly produce all the ships (even if t2) they want which is what will happen in DU. On top of all that, CCP actually decided passive moon mining was a bad idea, and removed it.

 

2) Citadels getting moon chunks ready for fracking does not make it passive income. You still have to actively mine it like you mine any other resource.

 

3) You might think PI is a passive income source, but it actually requires a lot of active time (clicks and hauling) to acquire wealth. If you spent 40 hours a week doing PI across as many characters as you need, you still actually earn significantly less than, say, 40 hours a week of wormhole ratting. I have 80 accounts in Eve and trust me the math is solid on this. The "calibration" mechanic will not similarly limit the DU passive mining.

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