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DEMETER Q&A VLOG - Discussion Thread


NQ-Deckard

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My only concern is the "talk" about the total wipe for the release. I'll be honest by saying that's unfair for people like me who have multiple accounts and pay for all of them (couple hundred $$) and then will be wiped out at the end of the beta phase. Especially when some other people received hundreds of beta keys for free during all the duration of the beta.

 

When I clicked on "buy 6 month subscription" for all of my characters, I had no indication that my characters will be wiped out at the end of the beta. Otherwise, believe me, I would never have subscribed. I'm sure this is not from a bad intention but because NQ remains undecided on the finality of a possible wipe for the release, several people just like me still paying subscriptions without properly playing Dual Universe but only for skilling the characters. That being said, I will greatly appreciate a final statement about the possible characters wipe for the release. That will make a big difference for me if I continue to pay or simply move forward.

 

Everyting else is a big thumbs up, including the price increase.

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Watching the video, it would appear to me that there are so many, we don't knows, maybe after demeter, we are not sure yets and other phrases, that show this patch SHOULD NOT be released yet.
Not only is this patch VERY ALPHA, it is also very undecided. At this point you have to wonder if this is to save costs, maybe they should shut down the public servers for another year and restart with an alpha, when they are ready. 
Also wipe on release????? That has to be a mistake. How is the question of a wipe for release on the table? 

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21 hours ago, Morgathys said:

My only concern is the "talk" about the total wipe for the release. I'll be honest by saying that's unfair for people like me who have multiple accounts and pay for all of them (couple hundred $$) and then will be wiped out at the end of the beta phase. Especially when some other people received hundreds of beta keys for free during all the duration of the beta.

 

There is a wipe and then there is a wipe..

 

I would agree that resetting everything is not something NQ can ever get away with again. Once they started charging subscriptions that option really was removed and honestly it would not be needed.

Personally, I do expect there to be an eventual wipe where NQ will reset the world, including removing constructs. You would have a blueprint for the constructs in your inventory and your accrued skill points would be returned to the points pool and not be lost.


I'm pretty sure at the time NQ thought they had no choice but to start charging a sub while at the same time they knew full well the game was (and is) far from in a state where that is without its issues. The game really is still very much in Alpha and as we see now with Demeter, deep and impactful changes are being made. The "funny" part for me is that the way NQ talks about changes and how they implement hem really lines up perfectly with being in Alpha stage where stuff changes, gets taken out, will be unbalanced and generally not yet "come together". Their choice to go to "beta" with what really is an alpha stage development game was a mistake.

Demeter is a good example of why the choices NQ made were not the right ones. Had they still been in closed Alpha, it would have been trivial for them to implement these changes combined with a full wipe even. What is happening now is bad on several fronts, not in the least the one where those who benefitted from gain from exploits can now start using those funds to grab any and all tiles they can and have infinite resources for as long as they play. Some players have enough funds to pay takes for years and years on many tiles and hardly notice. Big organisations can, based on what NQ said, grab and hold massive numbers of tiles through their members and not pay tax on any of them ever.

DU is still very much in a phase where these things are planned and initially implemented, there is no balance and no cohesion yest. And that by itself really makes the "beta" label meaningless. once more there was a "we do not know yet, we have to see, we will refine after" in the vlog.. All that would be fine and expected during Alpha. For a game that is supposed to release next year sometime though, that is really not a good sign.


So yes, expect a wipe is what I'd say/suggest. But expect a wipe where may need to start over while you do retain your constructs as blueprints and will retain your talent points. And those two alone would give you a massive leg up when that wipe happens against those who join at that time which is fair enough seeing how you did subscribe early.

 

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5 hours ago, FryingDoom said:

Also wipe on release????? That has to be a mistake. How is the question of a wipe for release on the table? 

This is also a huge concern for me. All the assurances of the past are up for grabs. That combined with the announcement of price increases with the Demeter release (thus pushing to buy now for a year), that means alarm bells are going off, loudly! I can understand price increases to a certain extend, but if you want to inspire confidence, do that a month or two after the Demeter release. I was already hesitant to extend my four accounts for another year at the end of the year since the first Demeter video, that concern waned a bit as I saw options and the probable release before the holidays. I can no longer wait and see without a significant price hike. So I either take a risk now and spend money for another year for four accounts or just wait and see and either spend significantly more on subscriptions or just reduce the amount of subscriptions I have (or just quit all together)....

 

If a full wipe is done at launch, without compensation for subscription fees and time spend in game, I'm done. Hell, I might be pissed off enough to see if we could take legal action, based on statements made by the CEO in public videos at beta launch...

 

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21 minutes ago, Jake Arver said:

 

There has never been an assurance or commitment of "no wipe" by NQ though.

Exactly. As much as people want to try and ignore it or even the idea of it The Full Wipe for release is definitely a possibility and is up for debate not only between the community but NQ internally also.
 

However currently nothing is set in stone. Myself does not want a full wipe on release because of the amount of work and effort put in by players over the beta period. With that said Beta has had its fair share of balance issues making it almost necessary to make the wipe happen. Imo in order to curb the need for a complete full wipe next year some actions from NQ needs to happen now to stop the Beta advantages.
 

A scan data wipe on Demeter release is an obvious must and also something needs to be done to curb the mass mission runners from gaining such large sums of quanta in single mission flights. 100’s millions in quanta of rewards should only be achieved by a convoy of ships not a single afk pilot. Taking action sooner than later means less chance of an economic wipe being needed. 

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4 minutes ago, Physics said:

A scan data wipe on Demeter release is an obvious must 

 

I'd agree. in the first Q&A NQ pretty much said the existing scans remain valid, in the latest one they clearly said otherwise.. just removing all scans really woudl be the best route here, if only to prevent some with lots of cash to just go and claim any and all tiles they have scans for and preserve unlimited resources that way


 

  

6 minutes ago, Morgathys said:

Dont let people pay a monthly subscriptions then... wtf

 

While I would not disagree there, at the time you subbed, the fact that NQ never ever said "no more wipes" was quite clear. It's true some in the community did, do and will try to say otherwise, but he facts are pretty straightforward here. If anyone who says anything different is asked to provide a link to a statement by NQ, they will not be able to produce it as it does not exist.

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@NQ

 

So, credit where credit's due. The vlog's are a nice step up from hardly any communication.

Also, the base territory unit (BTU?) without tax seems like an acceptable solution, as long as we get enough of them.

 

But.. If this BTU feature is not ready for when demeter goes live, then you are yet again going to do the type of rushed release mistake you have done so many times before.

I.e. by the time the BTU feature get released,  the damage would most likely already be done since demeter without BTU would force players to login and pay tax on tiles.

And we all know from experience that it would not be a matter of days or even weeks from demeter and until the BTU is ready.

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Doombad said:

It was stated a number of times there would be no more wipes.

 

You say it was stated several times, so where? please provide links to two of these times where NQ said there wil be no more wipes as a statement of fact.

 

NQ has said they have no intention of doing a wipe but will if the situation calls for it. The have never said "There will be no more wipes."

NQ-Entropy on a video blog said "We prefer to not wipe. But it can happen that something causes damage in game to the extent it is not avoidable to do at least a partial wipe"

 

As I have said previously, I can see the point of not doing a full wipe anymore as in everyone starts over with nothing and gets to keep nothing. Worst case (and IMO unavoidable at some point prior to release), NQ will wipe the entire world, will provide blueprints for your constructs in your backpack and will return your accrued talent points to the pool.


From the discussion around the mining talent points on the latest VLOG it's obvious NQ really does not understand why some are asking for a full respec. Their arguments against it are really papethin and frankly irrelevant. The changes in mining do not _just_ impact mining TP. A player may well want to keep the existing mining talents as mining on asteroids still uses the old mechanic, yet they may want to move talent point sfrom other talents to apply to the new ones. NQ seem to not get that.


NQ also does not get the argument around wipes in the community and what's worse, they refuse to make a choice themselves either way. As long as they don't, the discussion will continue. Yes, they will always see some unhappy but at the same time by being indecisive, they cause both sides to remain unhappy. And that they seem to not want to get and their lack of ownership in this matter si not helping, especially since I am pretty sure they full well realie that a wipe as I described above is unavoidable.

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1 hour ago, Jake Arver said:

While I would not disagree there, at the time you subbed, the fact that NQ never ever said "no more wipes" was quite clear.

 

What you mention doesn't make sense, you just can't make people pay every month for every toon and then erase everything and say that NQ never ever said "No wipes"...

The "full wipe" is not a default value, especially when you're paying for a product.

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1. The reason players want full skill reset is that mining only reset doesn't give everyone an equal playing field, and you have grossly changed the primary way to earn quanta.
2. NQ-PANN says if you have fully optimized your resource pool you will profit over tax. Issue #1 means a builder is less capable of doing that, 
3. The economic impact of Dementor means people aren't largely buying designs like they were even at a 75% discount, cause we are all mining and hoarding quanta.

- This update is highly advantageous for those already skilled for activities that previously net them a lot of profit to begin with.
- Meanwhile it heavily punishes players creating content that invested their points into making honeycomb and building materials they needed to build.
- Additionally, if you were a builder that was trying to work on large player made locations, you are also being shafted.

What I made in quanta as a builder over 3-4 months, miners could LITERALLY make in 3-4 hours if spec'ed into those skills. Now you are taking my land, crippling my ability to earn in a new economy, and punishing me essentially for dedicating my time to making "player created content". Something I did cause I wanted to draw more people into this game...

@NQ-Pann your statement that "people don't like change" is heavily contextual. We as players would LOVE more ways to earn quanta, more reasons to interact as players, new content etc. What players don't enjoy is fundamentally de-stabilizing changes that threaten to wipe away a couple years of work, because we didn't play according to NQ's new vision of the game.

If you can't avoid chicken and egg mistakes with the autominers & DSAT, how can you ever hope to realize the devastation you are unleashing on the player base by combining taxes at a time you are fundamentally overhauling the entire economy.

 

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1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

But.. If this BTU feature is not ready for when demeter goes live, then you are yet again going to do the type of rushed release mistake you have done so many times before.

 


You sir, are 100% on point! Willy Nilly changes, and switch flipping, and BS off the cuff bandaids that won't be available before many players bleed out.

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2 hours ago, Morgathys said:

 

What you mention doesn't make sense, you just can't make people pay every month for every toon and then erase everything and say that NQ never ever said "No wipes"...

The "full wipe" is not a default value, especially when you're paying for a product.


No one is talking about or expecting NQ to "erase everything", That would be a bad idea.  A (partial) wipe as I described above is IMO unavoidable at some point before "release" and anyone who played prior to that wil have the advantage of being able to restart and rebuild quickly and with a well balanced talent set which can also be respecced to suit the then current state of the game.

Arguing that NQ started asking money for access while they full well know there may be a need to at least partially wipe one or more times over the following few years is fair enough.

Arguing that fact AFTER you started paying for a sub while the information of the possibility of that potential event is known to exist however is not.
 

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1 hour ago, Creator said:

@NQ-Pann your statement that "people don't like change" is heavily contextual. We as players would LOVE more ways to earn quanta, more reasons to interact as players, new content etc. 

 

I agree that this was poorly worded. I think they see complaints and believe "our players just don't like change", because with almost every change they've announced people have complained. 

 

But that isn't so much a problem with us (except a few idiots) as a a problem with...almost every change being poorly conceived, and with the general lack of stability in terms of the game's overall direction. 

 

They seem really surprised that people don't enjoy their alpha-style of development where they throw changes around with no plan just to "test them out".

On a paid game.

That's been in dev for 7+ years.

 

They should have left this style of dev behind a long time ago. No more "well, we're not sure...this is just a first iteration..." -- that doesn't work in a paid product at what is apparently late-stage beta. The nature of the product should be much more stable now, but they are constantly changing the core of what DU is. 

 

Nobody is mad that the game is changing, we all want the game to change.

 

Are people mad that the poor planning around changes means their scans will become defunct? Sure. Is that anyone's fault but NQ's? Obviously not. It isn't that players are "divided", it's that NQ has created these catch-22 situations by not planning ahead and never getting out of "early alpha" development processes. 

 

I think with these videos...they should talk a lot less.

Keep it focused.

Write a script.

Give us the important information quickly, then elaborate more.

Don't let your opinions about the player-base leak into the content. It really underscores how NQ doesn't completely understand how professional studios run their development. They expect us to all be cool with this early-alpha "play it by ear" method that isn't conducive to MMOs and certainly not paid subscription MMOs. 

 

They just don't seem to understand their own product. 

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8 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

 

I agree that this was poorly worded. I think they see complaints and believe "our players just don't like change", because with almost every change they've announced people have complained. 

 

But that isn't so much a problem with us (except a few idiots) as a a problem with...almost every change being poorly conceived, and with the general lack of stability in terms of the game's overall direction. 

 

They seem really surprised that people don't enjoy their alpha-style of development where they throw changes around with no plan just to "test them out".

On a paid game.

That's been in dev for 7+ years.

 

They should have left this style of dev behind a long time ago. No more "well, we're not sure...this is just a first iteration..." -- that doesn't work in a paid product at what is apparently late-stage beta. The nature of the product should be much more stable now, but they are constantly changing the core of what DU is. 

 

Nobody is mad that the game is changing, we all want the game to change.

 

Are people mad that the poor planning around changes means their scans will become defunct? Sure. Is that anyone's fault but NQ's? Obviously not. It isn't that players are "divided", it's that NQ has created these catch-22 situations by not planning ahead and never getting out of "early alpha" development processes. 

 

I think with these videos...they should talk a lot less.

Keep it focused.

Write a script.

Give us the important information quickly, then elaborate more.

Don't let your opinions about the player-base leak into the content. It really underscores how NQ doesn't completely understand how professional studios run their development. They expect us to all be cool with this early-alpha "play it by ear" method that isn't conducive to MMOs and certainly not paid subscription MMOs. 

 

They just don't seem to understand their own product. 


I like your post here, and if you are going to quote a line then include the whole thing not just a section and tell me I worded it poorly in the opener. We essentially said the same thing I just didn't get as detailed.

 

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3 minutes ago, Creator said:


I like your post here, and if you are going to quote a line then include the whole thing not just a section and tell me I worded it poorly in the opener. We essentially said the same thing I just didn't get as detailed.

 

Sorry, I mean that Pann's response was poorly worded, not your post. Miscommunication. 

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3 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

 

Sorry, I mean that Pann's response was poorly worded, not your post. Miscommunication. 

Oh shit, no worries then... we are good, and yes agreed. I have many issues I take with Pann's communication and while I have nothing against her as a person as I don't know her... her commentary is quiet inflammatory to me as someone heavily impacted by these changes.

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There is a big part of me that wants this game to succeed.  When Demeter was announced, however, I pretty much wrote this game off.  Just watched the video, and here is my feedback:

1.) LOVE the idea of the "headquarters" on each planet idea that won't be taxed.  Thank you for listening to the massive feedback.  The video explained a great point that there would a lot of land grabbing.  While I do agree with this, If tiles pay for themselves with the auto mining, I'm not really sure how that's going to discourage or stop the land grabbing.  Think that idea needs to be a little more fine tuning... but NQ is headed in a better direction there.

2.) I'm not a big fan of paying a sub to be a beta tester.  There was a point in game history that game companies actually paid their beta testers, not the other way around.  Sure, I understand that NQ needs money, and with all the recent news and updates, NQ looks to be screaming that they are running out of money fast.  However, I'm not sure why NQ is the only beta game I've played that is charging a sub.  Can someone correct me if this is a common thing in beta games?

Given that the players are creating the content in this game, and a lot of people are sitting on the sidelines waiting for the devs to create something more to do in the game, I kinda think the price increase is another smack in the face to players.  I get it... NQ needs money desperately.  How do other small game companies pull it off with their games without charging a sub for beta games?

3.) Mistake or covering your ass, I'm just happy the airbrake change isn't being lumped into the Demeter patch!  Pretty sure you would have another exodus had that been included.

4.) I do appreciate the vlog updates giving more insight and communicating these things to the players.  Glad to see NQ is interested in feedback and getting closer to getting on the same page as the players.

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18 hours ago, Jake Arver said:


Overal thoughts..

"Not expected outcome" on PTS changes was funny. It just shows NQ does not know their own product or their community very well
 
Geometry reset not main issue. Of course not, it is fairly minor and really roo small an action
 
The argument to not allow respec of talents is silly, NQ is basically still in alpha and making big changes here which justifes a full respec. The argument that you do not want to allow a respec every patch is not valid here as this is a major patch with deep changes.
 
Why is NQ saying the scans remain valid when they will not be as per this QA. 
 
Unlimited ore now? That ends the need for many to ever leave Alioth and will make big orgs and those with deep pockets thanks to exploits mass claim tiles from their existing infrastructure and availability of ships. Also, with T4/T5 ore now beiong nore sparse and on outerplanets, once big orgs grab them they have unlimited supply. This change pretty much undermines the core of DU from my POV
 
The typical "you do not understand" dismissal of valid concerns about mining (locations). "once you understand it wil lbe easy" mean you do not actually listen to yoru communities concerns.
 
Lovely how Pann pretty much describes alpha state game development (put something out htere and see how it works). NQ should really readjust their develolp;ment state an dbe honest about it.
 
Wipe/no wipe should not be a matter of discussion for NQ, changes like coming now during development ask for a wipe and NQ should grow a pair and pull the trigger on a wipe.

 

TAXES

  • Of course taxes are a big issue. It's a sensible idea, badly designed. Again, NQ being seemingly surprised by this shows they really do not hink these things through on a level beyond their own bubble.
  • Taxes "to avoid land grabbing" was funny, I laughed so hgard. It will actually drive it as people with a lot fo currency will do exactly that to secure their unlimited supply of ore. Which is the very reason why a full wipe is needed on such a massive shift in core game design.
  • Aquisitioning static constructs on a tile once the ownershipo expires and is claimed by another player makes sense but there needs to be a longer period for which you can pay taxes. If people have to be absent for longer they need to be able to not have to get back to the game while they can't OR be able to assign others to pay the tax while retaining ownership.
  • Allowing one tax free tile per player will allow big orgs to combine tile ownership of members and own massive swats of tiles at no cost. This needs to be addressed/balanced.

 
PRICING:

  • Frankly.. I called this one and do not see much of an issue with it. I do not expect it to make much of a difference now though, it woudl have if these prices were what NQ started with
  • The spin on the price increase is hilarious "you can still pay $7/month but you need to pay for a year in advance". In other  words, "please make a long term commitment to the game"
  • The pricing uses insane exchange rates in some cases

 
COST CUTTING

  • The spin from Pann on the cost cutting by NQ is silly and shows a complete misunderstanding of the comments she refers to. It pretty much also exposes the massive disconnect there is between NQ and the community.
  • NQ needs to stop making excuses and trying to spin their need to cut cost as a positive.


Lastly;
People saying a NQ staffer should "die in a fire" in any sort of way should result in an insta ban and it should not be laughed off during a Q&A. I've been berated and threatened by NQ staff with bans for far, far less. Pann should kow better with her background and experience than to put that out here and downplay it.

I think you nailed every part of this spot on... including the stupid comment someone made to Pann. 

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6 hours ago, Jake Arver said:

Arguing that fact AFTER you started paying for a sub while the information of the possibility of that potential event is known to exist however is not.

 

Well.. I disagree when you are saying that potential event is known. Some players phantasm do not become a well known fact by default as much as a discussion in the forum... most of the players do not even look at the forum either...

 

A clear disclaimer saying that characters progression will be erased when the game will be released during the account creation or during the subscription process should have done the job properly.

 

3 hours ago, FalloutWB said:
  • Of course taxes are a big issue. It's a sensible idea, badly designed. Again, NQ being seemingly surprised by this shows they really do not hink these things through on a level beyond their own bubble.
  • Taxes "to avoid land grabbing" was funny, I laughed so hgard. It will actually drive it as people with a lot fo currency will do exactly that to secure their unlimited supply of ore. Which is the very reason why a full wipe is needed on such a massive shift in core game design.

 

It is important for the continuity of the game over time to have this kind of mechanisms. Otherwise, in 10 years from now some people will still own territories without never playing the game again while other active players could have been interested by these same tiles.

 

Implementing reccurent taxes is the perfect way to avoid this kind of situations which require to be active to maintain the territories.

Cash sink is also an important part to keep an healthy economy, you should know that If you played Eve online regarding the plex price.

 

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1 hour ago, Morgathys said:

A clear disclaimer saying that characters progression will be erased when the game will be released during the account creation or during the subscription process should have done the job properly.

 

No it would not as it is not a GIVEN this may happen as much as it is not guranteed it won't. Making such disclaimers wil generally get overlooked anyway.. Most poeple do not even read terms and conditions or even disclaimers like this.

The big issue here is that NQ in my view advertised the game to be in a state it is not at the time they opened it up last year. Their pretence this is a beta game is very obviously not justified to say the least. From that I feel that for hte state the game is actually in, which is still early alpha really, things like wipes, in any form, are to be expected.

 

And even then, over the time you hav subbed there have been many clear signals by NQ that a wipe is never off the table, why did you extend your sub knowing that? And in case you say you did not know, then honestly that is on you as the discussion here and the content about this in the NQ blogs and announcments has been pretty cleear.

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7 hours ago, Jake Arver said:

And even then, over the time you hav subbed there have been many clear signals by NQ that a wipe is never off the table, why did you extend your sub knowing that? And in case you say you did not know, then honestly that is on you as the discussion here and the content about this in the NQ blogs and announcments has been pretty cleear.

 

Reading your posts you seem to want to speak on my behalf and on NQ behalf. No I got no signal at all as I just started to follow DU forum and listening NQ videos.
Keep in mind that your understanding and your expectations is only on you, it's a good thing because you seems not aware how a game development and marketing works.

 

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