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Call for Demeter-related questions


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31 minutes ago, Fembot68 said:

To be honest the only way I see the game taking off is going back to pre .23. Buffing engines or making them smaller.  finally  Stop the punish the player behavior!   It just makes people leave. 

This was the absolute best game since SWG  by a wide margin pre .23  The only thing it needed was more content. 

 

I agree by 100%

Game has lost its track and became punishing simulator.

NQ Game designers: please reconsider about what you are doing.

 

- Call To Action – Say NO to territory taxes -

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First, well done NQ for this update. Please don't listen to people who contradict the changes that Demeter is going to make, because they see continuity only as things stand now, with few players, and don't understand that it is a persistent universe that will welcome maybe millions of players in the years to come and will have to persist for many years.

 

Will there be an increase in the number of asteroids due to the removal of nodes from the planets?

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QUESTION: 

Are you trying to punish PvE, New, and Solo players? First the miniscule number of PvE Asteroids, and now the taxes on territory that yield less ore per hour than you can mine per 5 second scoop currently. 


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Based on the numbers from PTS, you need 20-30 territories and many more miners to yield a steady flow of resources

All this is going todo is assure is that the inflated ore market becomes more inflated, and that smaller orgs, solo players, and new players have virtually no chance to ever progress, and force people into just doing hauling missions, which in turn forces them to risk PvP Conflict, which with the new changes increases the chance of now being not able to replace what you lost.

I understand this is a civilization building game. To have a civilization you have to have groups, large groups, even nations or mega corporations. But if you remove the ability to make an impact as an individual, or even be able to function self sufficiently to a good degree, what's the point? 

What is the attraction for a new player?  "Welcome! Now pick one of 5 mega organizations to join, or spend the next month collecting your daily reward to build your first ship. By the way, if you want a Territory not on Sanctuary, you are going to need to find a way to make more money, because the daily reward won't even pay for your taxes for one territory."

Honestly I have rarely said anything about the game updates. Even schematics. I enjoyed the challenge of working hard to build something. But honestly, if these extraction numbers stay anywhere in the neighborhood where they are now, I honestly think my time will be better spent elsewhere. This is not a threat, or me generally just whining. I love this game, I truly do, but this will literally suck the enjoyment of the game right out of me. 

You have the ability to create and maintain what is likely the best MMO in a generation - Don't waste it on bad  decisions. Listen to your player base, what remains, learn from the many people who have left. When Beta hit, the first couple months were amazing, despite the bugs. When you looked at Dual Universe on a streaming site, it was loaded with people building, PvPing, exploring, and enjoying the game, with thousands of people enjoying watching them.. But if you look now, you see the same few streamers, with maybe a couple dozen viewers, if anyone is online at all.

Listen. Learn. Debate. Act. Do better.
 

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Existing deployed territory units have incurred the usual exponential deployment costs. By changing to a recurring tax, how is the current deployment cost integrated with the new tax? For example, a 4 million Quanta deployment fee paid one month before the beginning of this new tax for that same territory? 
 
Possibly refund Quanta equal to the difference between what was paid prior to the Demeter update and the new tax, pro-rated by the length of time the territory unit has been deployed.
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Since with Demeter update planet based active mining (digging & mining) would no longer be available, most miners would go for asteroids. Currently the number of asteroids in safe zone is very few.

 

So will we see an increase in safe zone asteroids and/or will there be an increase in the overall amount of asteroids that would spawn weekly. 

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Hi NQ, 

For me the value of the Mining in L/h is sooo ridiculus ! in ONE HOUR 1/2 scoop of traditional mining ? how to build something or create something ? 
the atmo break stacking is the onlty way to have enought break without kill the ship design !! please leave it !

thanks for your feedback !

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Territories will get a permanent value because of the mining units but there is no territory warfare yet and Alioth will never have that. So territories can't be taken from other players and some players that don't have scanners or don't like that gameplay can't rush for territories and are left behind. So why will sanctuary get equal territory values and Alioth or any of the other planets in the save zone won't?

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7 hours ago, Fembot68 said:

To be honest the only way I see the game taking off is going back to pre .23. Buffing engines or making them smaller.  finally  Stop the punish the player behavior!   It just makes people leave. 

This was the absolute best game since SWG  by a wide margin pre .23  The only thing it needed was more content. 

Whining over schematics is so overblown. Get over it FFS.

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3 hours ago, Joxico said:

Hi NQ, 

For me the value of the Mining in L/h is sooo ridiculus ! in ONE HOUR 1/2 scoop of traditional mining ? how to build something or create something ? 
the atmo break stacking is the onlty way to have enought break without kill the ship design !! please leave it !

thanks for your feedback !

Well…. With so little ore being mined in the future will mean we won’t be hauling as much so smaller ships needing fewer atmo brakes. NQ rocketstrategery. ?

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I have so much time in this game and really enjoy it and the only issue is territory tax cost. i have 21 tiles and not all in 1 place. a few on different planets. I enjoy the build of the game, but 1 million a week. No way i can keep up with this. Our organization is only 3 of us and we will probably stop playing this game if this sticks. 21 million a week? Thats Crazy. I really hope this changes alot because i really want to continue playing DU.

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After seeing the video and getting hyped for DU again I almost resubbed my account to come back to the game. (only been gone since Apollo issues).  I was like now this, this is the right direction.  Now after reviewing with my org the details on the test server I am no longer hyped. No longer impressed and no longer even considering for a moment about returning to DU if these changes go live.  

Not only will this destroy literally every build I have in the game and remove them permanently (I don't make 27 million a week in profit on anything) but as someone who has health issues, there is no way I can sustain my building enjoyment vs the tax rate.  NQ asked players to BUILD THE WORLD so there was stuff here when the release happened so that new players would see a world full of builds. Now with taxes the world will be barren.  Did someone just take a 2 week vacation with their family for the holidays? Oh great all of their factories, builds, etc have been taxed and unpaid and now simply gone.  They return after a good family outing to find out that NQ has deleted everything they worked for due to taxes.  That ends their enjoyment of the game, and they move on to other games. 

Even mobile afk games have enough buttons to press to keep people playing games like AFK arena for years.  Come on.  You get so close to something good, something that hypes the community only to throw in some STUPID last minute thing that completely destroys your reputation as a game developer. Its too much for any White Knight of NQ to deal with.

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________
 

What Demeter COULD have been.

-Auto-mining and more asteroids resulting in more ore in the economy.
-Time saving feature allowing players who build to have a constant supply of ore (although low) to build the world with

-Beautiful builds arising that function better and have less lag due to the ground rework

-Rebalanced Ore economy due to surplus from players not using the ore (or orgs mass mining to supply markets)

-Voxel tools making building with voxel easier, saving more time for players.

-More time saved = more builds = more pvp content as people have time to have fun in DU. (since they have to mine less)

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

What Demeter IS GOING to be;

 

-Auto-mining costs more than the ore that is mined. (tile with 500L/hr hematite generates 2.1m in value to bots in a week, 1m cost to own the tile, likely 1-2m to ship the ore if not on Alioth in warp cells, saved to 400k if slowboat)

-With the increase in ore stabilizing the ore market, the lack of ability to pay the taxes results in NO ore on the market

-Players who aren't "Hardcore" and are "Casual" or have real lives losing their builds

-Ships now cost so much that the ore will never be attainable for the ships to be built.

-ALL ships PRE-Demeter become INVALID

-All Ship designers pre-demeter leave DU when this releases rather than completely overhauling everything they ever did in DU since September. (see Apollo update results)

-PVP will die off completely as orgs/pirates will not be able to afford the taxes on the ore they need to repair their ships and players will not risk hauling anything valuable without warp due to the taxes consuming 90% of the value of the ore before you lift off the planet with it.


_____________________________________________________

What should NQ do then?!

 

-Remove taxes from this update.

-Remove brake changes from this update

-Research how to implement "decay systems" into your game properly.

-Remove weird ass mechanics from Auto-miners that not a single person has said was positive. Wtf even is this. 


_____________________________________________________

Suggestion on HOW to implement TAXATION for CLAIMATION.

 

-Players place the core, receive a pop up that asks the type of tile it will be and selects one of the following options;

  1. Residential Tile (Housing and cool looking builds with no functionality) Minor tax (150k/week) or No Tax (already paid upfront)
  2. Industrial Tile (Designed for Industrial tiles with factories) Medium tax (300k/week)
  3. Mining Tile (Designed for Mining Units) High Taxes (450k/week)
  4. Commercial Tile (Designed for selling goods) Taxes paid off sales (10%-20%) directly from dispensers.

This will allow players to choose what they want to do;

 

To further elaborate- Residential tiles cannot hold industry units.  Industry Tiles could have a maximum # of allowed assemblers, Mining Tiles could be the only tiles that allow autominers to be functional, and Commerical tiles are the only tiles that allow use of dispensers.  Residential tiles could be green, Industry tiles yellow, Mining tiles Red, and Commerical tiles blue on the map.  

 

This would allow players to identify the tile type in the map and see the various commercial tiles around the worlds and encourage them to go shopping. (boosting economy)  Which highest traffic ones could eventually end up with market areas (as previously mentioned at the end of Alpha)

WAR DECLARE SYSTEM- This suggestion would tie into future features like the War system as orgs could identify mining tiles or commercial tiles of their enemy orgs while at the same time leaving alone those massive Residential builds that everyone loves to visit that won't gain them any profit for attacking. 

 

This would also allow a decay system to be put in place for people who just leave the game for "too long" and would remove many of the towers that exist of people who haven't played since 0.23.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________

 

TLDR:  If NQ implements taxes/brake changes to DU, the game will die fully. These changes don't increase the time for FUN, they remove the FUN entirely.  NQ I strongly urge you to PAY ATTENTION to this update more than you did the last 2 and LISTEN to these ONLY TWO REAL complaints from the community and X them out before this goes live. 

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Ok NQ time for you to put your money as you are trying to save where your mouth is, we the community have I think expressed our feelings toward this now looming update and we want to hear your thoughts on what feedback we have provided thus far. The ball is now in your court let us hear from you!!

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Simply leave the "tax" as is currently with territory unit deployment costs. This way territories are purchased when they can be afforded without fear of loss. If an ongoing tax must be applied, make it a "Mining Tax", due only when ore is extracted and based on the amount of ore extracted.
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So come to find out unless someone can correct me on this the snap shot was taken around 18 to 19 Oct, while the vlog was put out on 21st Oct. In that vlog NQ-Deckard said they WOULD BE taking a snap shot of the live server so that all players CURRENT builds will be in the PTS so you can test and see if your constructs are buried. Well if you lie about the little things how can we believe you on the big stuff.

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1 minute ago, ReconDo17 said:

So come to find out unless someone can correct me on this the snap shot was taken around 18 to 19 Oct, while the vlog was put out on 21st Oct. In that vlog NQ-Deckard said they WOULD BE taking a snap shot of the live server so that all players CURRENT builds will be in the PTS so you can test and see if your constructs are buried. Well if you lie about the little things how can we believe you on the big stuff.

 

VLog was recorded earlier in the month - they even say so in the video, just not specifically when

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11 hours ago, DropNod said:

and don't understand that it is a persistent universe that will welcome maybe millions of players in the years to come and will have to persist for many years.

Sorry, but with all the changes on PTS for Demeter, that will NEVER happen. We saw a ton of builders leave after 0.23, DU never recovered from that. Even the last couple of months many long time builders have gone on a break from DU. When their subscription expires and they try to return, all their bases will be gone. Folks in the know already will not resubscribe (EVER) and folks that didn't know will charge back their subscription fee via their credit card company (besides the subscription fees there are added costs for that for NQ).

 

NQ might eventually wind up with a monthly active player-base of maybe a few hundred-thousand, just like EVE. Just like EVE, DU is a niche MMO. But if that would ever happen, they'll need to be around for a decade and a half, just like EVE. Development of DU goes slow, has many ups and downs, many winding paths, and many backtracking. The strength of EVE was always that you could come back, your stuff would always be there, except of course if you build in PVP space, but all your stuff in npc stations would always be there. Your ships would always fly, the meta might change, you might not have the most optimal fits, but it would work. With the Demeter changes we would only have the stuff left on your starter tile (if they don't change that as well) and any ships there might very well no longer fly and any scripts on it might be broken, even if it flies, it might crater at any moment... But wait you say, what about Space Core Units? Currently they might be fine (but also broken on PTS), but if everyone moves to space, NQ is going to do the same thing to Space Cores as they are doing now to Static Cores...

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So the taxes, brakes, limitations of new miners, amount of ore /h, old scans have all been debated with varying opinions on how to deal with the issues. I think most of us in this community if that is what it is and we are trying to building feel the same on most of these:

 

Brakes -  should have told us, no one likes surprises unless its surprise you won a million dollars

mining units - mechanics need more time 2 weekends and poof here ya go is not enough 

Ore pool - again needs more time to develop discussion 

Scans - to have a level playing filed for all players ditch old scans, I know players spent countless hours as I have scanning tiles but take yourself out of it and look from a new player perspective as they will be a disadvantage after this update and will only stick around a short time if they join at all

Taxes - I have a question not sure anyone has asked, what are these taxes for? Whom do they go to? Is there some benefit for players i.e. a special event put on by NQ supported by these taxes where players compete for building ships or static constructs and win quanta or special in game items for participation. Hint if you use the taxes collected for a purpose then people may get behind the tax as it could potentially benefit the player base in some way

 

I am sure there are things I have missed I am just tired of beating the same dead horse, if any one has anything to add please feel free or to debate these ideas discussion is the only way to make effective change.

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Another question:
 
Are there plans to tax PvP content like you are PvE content? It seems only fair that pirates and other PVPers have to pay out of pocket to recore ships they destroy, or when they strip the elements, or empty the containers, that were built and paid for by the taxes of Territories and the slow mining placed on those territories.

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