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All things in balance.


BlindingBright

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I love DU- and IMHO this game is in a better place than it's been since I started playing right after beta launched.  NQ has started to turn things around, is it perfect? no. Is it improving? mostly! Does it still need work? well it's still beta haha

When missions came out, it opened up the flood gates of quanta for many small-to-large orgs. It was profitable to run Aphelia missions in the safe zone, and in pvp space as a solo player.  Currently with the inflation in the market on ore prices quadrupling in a matter of months.... causing fuel costs to skyrocket, it's nearly impossible to turn a decent profit for running aphelia missions anymore... and I see a ton less people  taking them/delivering at Market 3 on Madis as time goes on.

Meanwhile, asteroids come out- with them giving us something to fight over... high tier ore that's in short supply planet side. Activity flourishing, finally orgs have some new targets and possibly something to actually fight over. With it, spawning an entire player-driven war of sorts, creating player driven content and contention. Though, in time- the price of high tier ore has decreased to the point of roid hunting/mining loosing it's profitability- with nearly the same hour of time spent mining an asteroid a player can make on a planet mining T1 / T2(and not even meganodes....), not even including the risk of loosing a ship.... a ship that was ultimately dug out of the "ground" by hand..... and for many not worth the risk.

The missing piece? autominers, they're coming soon, people are getting ready for them and old players are starting to have their ears perk up a bit again... and probably one of the hardest to balance. From land being horded/claimed in mass- to how much they'll mine per hour.... and price of creating them.  And while any suggestions may be too late, I would urge... air on the side of /more/ I'd personally like to see this game move from spending countless hours mining- to spending countless hours creating and growing the player made content in the universe.  

With enough ore supply orgs could finally have the resources to expand without burning out members on the "grind", it'd allow for more people to get into PVP- with my hopes to allow orgs an easier way to gain ore and fleet fields of ships to be destroyed... so not every major PVP loss feels like hours of your life gone. This PVE content could help balance the needs of PVP, bringing lower tier ore prices down- making roid hunting and high tier ore mining more viable again... and in doing so balance the price of fuel/mission system to be more viable again as a solo player.

So am excited for this next path, and hope that it brings some much needed balance to the game.

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3 hours ago, BlindingBright said:

I'd personally like to see this game move from spending countless hours mining- to spending countless hours creating and growing the player made content in the universe.

This is what many of us has been asking for a long long time.

But with the exception of the upcoming auto mining, all actions from NQ, has been to hide building/creativity behind an increasingly large wall of grind. And the by now infamous 0.23, being the final straw that broke the camels back and made many players quit the game (and probably a big reason why we are now getting auto mining).

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13 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

This is what many of us has been asking for a long long time.

But with the exception of the upcoming auto mining, all actions from NQ, has been to hide building/creativity behind an increasingly large wall of grind. And the by now infamous 0.23, being the final straw that broke the camels back and made many players quit the game (and probably a big reason why we are now getting auto mining).

All I know is the grind of post 0.23. I didn't get to take advantage of cheap blueprints, or resources glitches I heard happened before hand... and have grinded... a lot. For some of it I love the grind, and weirdly mining is enjoyable if a bit hard on RSI.... which at one point I got from mining 20 hours in a day.  

I'd like to think/hope NQ is working to reduce the grind and are aware of it burning peeps out, and hoping autominers will be a bit of a relief and hopefully spark a renaissance for DU. 

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Let's hope so, because depending on how you count they are currently burning out a third wave of players.

And I don't think they can except many more waves of new players wanting to play the game.

 

And grind is of course is not the only reason why players leave. But it is worth considering that PvP'ers have a tendency to "burn brightly" with multiple accounts and then switch games rather quickly, while the creative crowd on the other hand will stick around for a long time if you give them the right tools to express their creativity. And the creative side will also slowly improve the overall game in the process by generating user content. Proved NQ gives us tools to make content that adds worth to other players also. Like player driven markets, better large scale building tools, more advanced user generated/scripted missions, more ability to affect the game using LUA etc.

 

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With al these prices going up, the schematics become relative very cheap. And so now I see less people dive into the market to buy something, as making them yourself has become much easier; We get more quanta for our mined ore and so can buy schematics easier.

Ive seen that lots of things are not (or barely) available anymore on the markets because players can make everything themselves. 

 

And so we are almost back at pre-0.23

We will just keep on balancing.

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Only way to get back to pre-0.23 is to remove schematics.

 

It was made very clear by JC  that the purpose of schematics is to limit industry. So if the market is currently up and making schematics relatively cheap, it also means there will be more industry that eventually will flood the market with products and pull prices down making schematics more expensive again.

So schematics is still a time-gating mechanics designed to limit industry, which in the end also means it adds grind to building and creativity.

 

So the question is more if the industry pre-0.23 was sustainable long term, and how NQ can remove grind without destroying the economy.

 

One such suggestion that NQ never acknowledged, is that we could use the ground we dig in as dirt cheap materials for large scale static building, that would be balances out with some limitations like weight/strength that would make then unsuitable for use on dynamic constructs.

 

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If only someone had warned you all that removing the bot orders was the same as removing the only market regulation that this game had. 

 

You all wanted this. You all wanted the market to freely move with the supply and demand. Even though i gave you several examples of how that would not work.

 

Now swallow it quietly and start your statement with "im sorry for pushing for bot orders to be removed" 

 

Ores need to be redistributed with 100 times less quantity. 

Ores need to respawn. 

Bot orders should exist to control extremely excessive demand or supply speculation in all products.

 

 

If no one wants to mine. Because its the most painfull gaming experience ever made in the history of video-games. Or because of some other reason. 

Then ppl would buy ore from NPCs. 

What is wrong with this???? 

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5 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

If only someone had warned you all that removing the bot orders was the same as removing the only market regulation that this game had. 

 

You all wanted this. You all wanted the market to freely move with the supply and demand. Even though i gave you several examples of how that would not work.

 

Now swallow it quietly and start your statement with "im sorry for pushing for bot orders to be removed" 

 

Ores need to be redistributed with 100 times less quantity. 

Ores need to respawn. 

Bot orders should exist to control extremely excessive demand or supply speculation in all products.

 

 

If no one wants to mine. Because its the most painfull gaming experience ever made in the history of video-games. Or because of some other reason. 

Then ppl would buy ore from NPCs. 

What is wrong with this???? 

You have clearly not played other MMOs, where you are forced to grind rep and countless hours to make useless crap to level up your crafting profession of choice, then of course grinding to gather mats to make potions and other stupid things you use throughout various fights, etc. 

 

Mining is so non-painful when you compare it to killing 9,000 rabid bunnies or crazed trees. 

 

Anyway, the mindset is extreme for a number of people of whom I can't imagine any MMO making them happy. 

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So you decided to focus on that part instead of using this opportunity to talk about the game economy issue. 

Good for you for dodging this in the exact same way your m8s did 1 year ago. Creating this entire situation. 

 

Hope you enjoy grinding bunnies in your old mmo after DU closes up. 

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6 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

So you decided to focus on that part instead of using this opportunity to talk about the game economy issue. 

Good for you for dodging this in the exact same way your m8s did 1 year ago. Creating this entire situation. 

 

Hope you enjoy grinding bunnies in your old mmo after DU closes up. 

To be candid, the economy doesn't bother me that much. With greater diversity of making quanta, fewer people are mining so supply/demand... etc.

 

I am solo and primarily self sufficient. I buy ships, I make my quanta, I make the main things I need to make. 

 

I keyed in on you comparing mining to the "its the most painful gaming experience ever made in the history of video-games," which is so radically over the top I wrote what I did. I mean... come on.... 

 

There isn't a single MMO in existence that does not have resource gathering as a key gaming element. It's how you get what you need to make what you need or want. Schematics are no different from recipes, rep, experience, etc. 

 

So, that is why I keyed into your mining perspective. ;)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Doombad said:

You have clearly not played other MMOs, where you are forced to grind rep and countless hours to make useless crap to level up your crafting profession of choice, then of course grinding to gather mats to make potions and other stupid things you use throughout various fights, etc. 

 

Mining is so non-painful when you compare it to killing 9,000 rabid bunnies or crazed trees. 

 

Anyway, the mindset is extreme for a number of people of whom I can't imagine any MMO making them happy. 

I have scanned, mined, hauled and sold more ships than I can keep track of- and am okay with the grind largely... I solo grinded most of a warp beacon line before ore prices/inflation hit. The issue is, it's not for everyone- and the more or less singular grind of mining isn't enough to keep people engaged, and unlike eve you can't easily multi-box while mining... and mining, for most, is less interesting than gathering mats in other MMO's. I know many people that have left due to the /grind/ after taking on large projects and burning out. The game starts to feel like /work/ vs fun for most. 

I will say, the positive of the ore markets being this inflated- is least schematics feel less painful for most getting into factories. Weirdly balancing it out a bit. 

I've played most major MMO's since Everquest- from DAOC, to SWG- and onto modern games like ESO and New World.... The thing that keeps me here in DU is the amazing open ended sandbox nature of the game, which none of them have. DU is a creative paradise for space lovers, and has sooo many things people love engaging in, but tend to get burnt out on the grind(along with all the bugs, and beta headaches)

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At the moment, you can see an enormous grind at NewWorld. There, however, it is tolerated and seen as a way to reach the goal of skilling professions in order to get equipment and consumables.
But in DualUniverse there is no real goal, you don't have any equipment to improve, you don't need food or potions or gems or.....
One has no choice of ores-plant-herbs-trees, fishing, hunting, lacing, ....es generally lack "professions to specialise in. In DualUniverse I can build a propeller but also engines, toilets, other ship elements. But anyone who wants to can do that. But what do you need all that for anyway? For many players, T1 ores are enough to build voxels from in order to then implement their building projects. Everything else makes no sense, because you don't have to find and fight monsters, there are no dungeons, raids, open-world bosses,... so what's the point of collecting higher-value ores - if you don't need them?

The only thing to do now would be to call it "PvP" - but what for? Only a small part of the community is interested in PvP, as in other games. The PvP in DualUniverse is not even good or balanced. If you have the meta, you win. If your opponent also has the meta, the one with more meta ships or those who currently have fewer bugs (shield bug, warp bug) wins.
But what exactly happens in PvP? Broken down, it only destroys and shifts resources that previously had to be collected at great expense. War is very expensive, so you have to be able to afford PvP and put a lot of time into the game.

DualUniverse itself is for me still in an alpha state and therefore far away from a beta or even further away from a release that would really attract a larger player mass and keep it permanently. There is simply an insane lack of game content, tools and balance. I won't mention that the performance is also a major construction site for now - I think everyone is aware of that anyway.

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On 10/11/2021 at 2:02 AM, BlindingBright said:

I've played most major MMO's since Everquest- from DAOC, to SWG- and onto modern games like ESO and New World.... The thing that keeps me here in DU is the amazing open ended sandbox nature of the game, which none of them have. DU is a creative paradise for space lovers, and has sooo many things people love engaging in, but tend to get burnt out on the grind(along with all the bugs, and beta headaches)

 

This is what attracted me to DU, too -- the fact that it was bold enough to try something different in the tragically formulaic world of MMOs. 

 

But there's a reason MMOs are so cookie-cutter...It's because of the high cost of development -- that means investors, and investors want the fundamental mathematics of your product to make sense.

 

That means designing a game around churn to some extent, which means implementing tried-and-true gaming metaphors. I have no idea how NQ secured investors without any real concept of churn or even a fleshed-out design.

 

Even today, does the game have a real design? Yes? So how it territory war and avatar combat supposed to work, if it's all planned out...? Or are they still flying by the seat of their pants with design choices, thinking they can just rebalance as they go...? 

 

If they got 1,000,000 subscribers tomorrow they'd be down to 100,000 subs by the end of the month (if that, even). 

 

It's too bad because it will make investors even less willing to take a risk on a bold new IP and the MMO genre clearly needs innovation -- I just wish DU had planned their design instead of relying on a novice that "had some ideas" and believed he could flesh them out as he went.

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2 hours ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

 

This is what attracted me to DU, too -- the fact that it was bold enough to try something different in the tragically formulaic world of MMOs. 

 

But there's a reason MMOs are so cookie-cutter...It's because of the high cost of development -- that means investors, and investors want the fundamental mathematics of your product to make sense.

 

That means designing a game around churn to some extent, which means implementing tried-and-true gaming metaphors. I have no idea how NQ secured investors without any real concept of churn or even a fleshed-out design.

 

Even today, does the game have a real design? Yes? So how it territory war and avatar combat supposed to work, if it's all planned out...? Or are they still flying by the seat of their pants with design choices, thinking they can just rebalance as they go...? 

 

If they got 1,000,000 subscribers tomorrow they'd be down to 100,000 subs by the end of the month (if that, even). 

 

It's too bad because it will make investors even less willing to take a risk on a bold new IP and the MMO genre clearly needs innovation -- I just wish DU had planned their design instead of relying on a novice that "had some ideas" and believed he could flesh them out as he went.

Shouldn't turn investors away, if anything- it's a strength right now due to how different it is in the MMO space. New World surprised the industry and showed people are hungry for new MMO's.... a genre that I think many overlooked for battle-royals and the cookie cutter rehashes. Have seen a few smaller MMO's get angel investment on the heels of New Worlds giant launch.

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It depends on which investors were really attracted in the case of DualUniverse. My guess is also those who are more interested in the server technology behind it than in the game that you run as a demo, so to speak.

 

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