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ELEMENT STACKING NOW PROHIBITED - NQ FEEDBACK PLEASE


Draqolas
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Dear NQ,
I'm actually very happy about the change and the fix, and want to thank you for that.
However, as a buyer and not creator i'm actually worried about the lack of planning over big part of community.
Most of buyers have no idea whether our ships have stacked elements or not!
Also what about situation when engines touch each other (thanks to unintended mechanic) but are not in the same position.
From what i am aware in order to put some elements closer and look nicer, they have been moved closer to each other using the broken mechanic, is this also a subject of moderation?
Lastly, Can you create the list of constructs that have overlapping elements so the community can fallow it up and take care of their ship?
I think this change require cooperation from both sides so please help us help you.
Would be nice if NQ would visit player ship stores and check every ship and inform community which construct have overlapping elements, because i think some people will start to panic.
Thank you for reading.

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I'll add that some things have massive hit boxes. For example L stabalizer and AGGs. Placing these first will result in the next thing being inside of their hitbox. Maybe a hitbox fix is on the way but until then maybe clarify what counts as stacked NQ? I know the intent is to get rid of the 10 engines in one spot but with ships at stake its good to be 100% clear

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I agree, we need some more clarifications on what is considered stacking, since there are currently many fringe cases where you get elements slightly overlapping just by placing them normally without trying to exploit the system. One solution for old builds could be a notification in build mode, telling you if there are elements that is considered stacked.

 

But going forward with new builds it should be simple. NQ say they have fixed the issue meaning whatever you are allowed to while building, that is not obviously a bug is fine.. Right?

 

My point being that if stacking is prohibited but still allowed by the build system, your result will be insecurity and confusion among players.

 

Another problem is the opposite, where the build system will place elements so that they are not touching and there is visible space between them.

 

And... While on the topic it would be nice if you could freely place and intentionally overlap non-functional elements like for example plants for cosmetic reasons. And this is something we actually could to in early builds.

 

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I dont think any clarification is needed. 

Stacking is against the rules. 

If you bought a ship with stacked elements you should have to explain it to NQ or/and suffer for it. 

 

I have seen topics like this for this last year. 

A rule is applied and the infractors, that know they are breaking the rule, try to come up with a interpretation of the rule that gives them margin to continue to break the rule. 

 

Everyone that has stacked items knows or can easily find out. 

There are places to see the element count. 

If you cant be sure if a ship has stacked elements, dont buy it and/or dont use it. 

 

But you are definitely not allowed to pleaded ignorance and continue to break the rules..... 

 

Got it? 

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3 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

I dont think any clarification is needed. 

Stacking is against the rules. 

If you bought a ship with stacked elements you should have to explain it to NQ or/and suffer for it. 

 

I have seen topics like this for this last year. 

A rule is applied and the infractors, that know they are breaking the rule, try to come up with a interpretation of the rule that gives them margin to continue to break the rule. 

 

Everyone that has stacked items knows or can easily find out. 

There are places to see the element count. 

If you cant be sure if a ship has stacked elements, dont buy it and/or dont use it. 

 

But you are definitely not allowed to pleaded ignorance and continue to break the rules..... 

 

Got it? 


No i don't get it, and your ignorance is just painful. 
Just as @CptLoRes wrote, it's not so simple, for example you can put engine on an element that takes half the voxel, and because of it you can put element closer by half voxel.
So just because u never build construct that looks like ship, doesn't mean others don't.
Some creators could put element closer by 1 or 2 voxels which visually does not stack, but in reality was stacked with currently considered exploit mechanic.
On top of it there is a lot of ships with hidden elements, full of various elements next to each other and without a tool from NQ we are not capable of knowing whether elements are stacked or not. 
I'm actually surprised that alpha backer doesn't know that.
We are not talking about situation where 2 excact elements are in the same place, we are talking about situation when elements are next to each other, and visually they don't touch.

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56 minutes ago, Draqolas said:


No i don't get it, and your ignorance is just painful. 
Just as @CptLoRes wrote, it's not so simple, for example you can put engine on an element that takes half the voxel, and because of it you can put element closer by half voxel.
So just because u never build construct that looks like ship, doesn't mean others don't.
Some creators could put element closer by 1 or 2 voxels which visually does not stack, but in reality was stacked with currently considered exploit mechanic.
On top of it there is a lot of ships with hidden elements, full of various elements next to each other and without a tool from NQ we are not capable of knowing whether elements are stacked or not. 
I'm actually surprised that alpha backer doesn't know that.
We are not talking about situation where 2 excact elements are in the same place, we are talking about situation when elements are next to each other, and visually they don't touch.


That's 100% BS.
Do you understand? BS! 
And I have been building ships that look like ships for several years now, And I use arrows to place my elements, but exploitable bugs.

We all know that S happens and that some block may overlap another in a non exploit build.

 

Like stopping in the middle of the highway is against the rules. A Cop may stop and ask you what's the matter. And if you have a plausible justification for stopping, you will have no issues.

In the same way. If your element is slightly overlapping, NQ may ask you some questions about it and may ask you to change it. But you will never get an immediate permanent ban because of this.

 

What we are talking is about NQ having the right to investigate your case or having to be quiet about your abuse.

 

It's not "ignorance" it's "too much experience dealing with exploit kids in several games"

Here is what a normal person does:

"I just read that there is a rule not to go right"

"I should start going left all the times"

Here is what a exploit kid does:
"i just read that there is a rule not to go right"

"but what is right?"
"is 45ºs to the right, right? Probably not, only 90ºs is right. how about 89º?"

"what if i was already going right?, can i continue?"

"what if i collide and my ship turns right? can i continue?"

"This needs explaining, because I want to go right by some exception to the rule!!!"

 

So the rule does not need any explaining.
The rule is: Dont stack.

 

You as players have to try your best to not stack and may need to explain if NQ queries your ship.
NQ has to act according to how serious was the stack.

What I can guarantee you is that no random player will be banned because of a 1 voxel overlap without a warning.

Now stop making excuses to exploit.
 

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Bro i don't want to talk with you, don't talk here please.
I refuse to talk with person that refuse to reason with logical argument from several people and ignore most of my reply just in order to confirm your own bullshit.
I checked discord and du creators, your non existent in terms of building ships.
But i guess creating flying brick is what you call BS.

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3 hours ago, Draqolas said:

Bro i don't want to talk with you, don't talk here please.
I refuse to talk with person that refuse to reason with logical argument from several people and ignore most of my reply just in order to confirm your own bullshit.
I checked discord and du creators, your non existent in terms of building ships.
But i guess creating flying brick is what you call BS.

Dude

1 You don't get to tell me where i should or should not talk. Feel free to not reply to me without the "drama queen last word" 

 

2 i dont have to explain to you my experience in designing ships. Neither it has any importance in following rules. 

 

Stop making excuses and dont exploit. 

If you find yourself breaking the rule, explain what happen to NQ. 

If you are really innocent, there will be no problem. 

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I have quit the game as have everyone else I know of.  This game has been dying since .23 and they are making another PUNISH THE PLAYERS initiative that very well might drive the last nails in the coffin!     During .23 you lost more than 40% of the player base on the first day. why did NQ not learn from this ?   O well this game had so much potential which is now squandered.   

 

Here is my feedback for @nq    You have been and are tone deaf.   The reason so many of us quit playing the game is you kept nurfing engines and mining.    Then you add all these animations that cause even more lag without giving us a way to turn if off!    Stacking elements is the only way we had to not create huge engine walls.  if you start deleting peoples ships without warning including the ones NQ promoted you will only loose more players!   I am so glad I don't play this game anymore because NQ is going to kill it.  Here is for the VOCAL Minority in the game.  Keep it up and help NQ kill the game.  Most of us have moved on now so we don't care. 

 

Good bye DU  it was fun while it lasted.   

 

 

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What the hell is meant with element stacking?

 

placing windows side by side and they actually overlap at the edges as you are building a triangle?

placing 10 containers against eachother? placing 4 ailerons on top of each other?  placing 2 landing gear beside each other? placing a break on a hover? placing an adjuster on an engine? placing an adjuster on a brake/window/cargo/etc?

 

We need clarification

 

Edited by Aaron Cain
Making post more political correct so carebears and other folks dont get offended
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2 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

Well, nice to see another expoid NQ probably wont do anything against but in case they actually do, what  is meant with element stacking?

 

placing windows side by side and they actually overlap at the edges as you are building a triangle?

placing 10 containers against eachother? placing 4 ailerons on top of each other?  placing 2 landing gear beside each other? placing a break on a hover? placing an adjuster on an engine? placing an adjuster on a brake/window/cargo/etc?

 

We need clarification

 

You are correct this only illustrates how little they know their own game.   if you place a few engines side by side then place another large element right behind them say  an AGG.  If you do this in certain ways you can no longer replace those engines because they are "overlapped"  even if you did not "stack" them they are indeed overlapping.   

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2 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

What the hell is meant with element stacking?

 

placing windows side by side and they actually overlap at the edges as you are building a triangle?

placing 10 containers against eachother? placing 4 ailerons on top of each other?  placing 2 landing gear beside each other? placing a break on a hover? placing an adjuster on an engine? placing an adjuster on a brake/window/cargo/etc?

 

We need clarification

 

 

 

It seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

None of that is "element stacking" unless you used an exploit to do it.

 

If the element can be placed in the position that it is in, using the standard method, as in the element is blue, and you click, and it is placed, then that is ok.

 

If other methods were used to place the element, methods that completely sidestep all the placement rules, even if you only used the method to slightly overlap an element, that's not ok.

 

 

 

 

 

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We are not talking about obvious exploit stacking with many elements at the same position with 100% overlapping.

 

The problem is the many, many ways you can get elements to partially overlap at the edges ect.  just by placing then normally on voxels etc.

I.e. normal building where you are just trying to place elements as close as possible for cosmetic reasons.

 

And so we need to know exactly what NQ considers stacking to be. And if they mean any kind of slight overlap at all. The fallout is going to be huge, since that would mean pretty much all constructs ever built in the game.

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8 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

We are not talking about obvious exploit stacking with many elements at the same position with 100% overlapping.

 

The problem is the many, many ways you can get elements to partially overlap at the edges ect.  just by placing then normally on voxels etc.

I.e. normal building where you are just trying to place elements as close as possible for cosmetic reasons.

 

And so we need to know exactly what NQ considers stacking to be. And if they mean any kind of slight overlap at all. The fallout is going to be huge, since that would mean pretty much all constructs ever built in the game.

 

 

I'm saying that there is a clear way of determining what is a "slight overlap" and should be fine, and what is "stacking", and that is the method used to achieve the placement.  There's no reason to think NQ would have any issue with anything that didn't require an exploit to achieve.

 

It would be nice if they would clarify how they plan to enforce this, but i don't think they will, because that would only help people trying to keep doing it.

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26 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

We are not talking about obvious exploit stacking with many elements at the same position with 100% overlapping.

 

The problem is the many, many ways you can get elements to partially overlap at the edges ect.  just by placing then normally on voxels etc.

I.e. normal building where you are just trying to place elements as close as possible for cosmetic reasons.

 

And so we need to know exactly what NQ considers stacking to be. And if they mean any kind of slight overlap at all. The fallout is going to be huge, since that would mean pretty much all constructs ever built in the game.


It's quite obvious that they just implement a double check with the same check mechanic that was already implemented.
They did not change the way elements appear in red(colliding) they just fixed the exploit that allowed ppl to stack items.
If you placed your items without any exploit, moving those left and right, with the arrows and seeing if it was blue or red, then nothing will happen to your ship or to you.

 

This entire conversation about hit boxes of an AGG was never mentioned by NQ on their statement. They not consider now an AGG like a big box instead of a cylinder. The "item is colliding" algorithm was not changed.
What changed was the fixing of the exploit that allowed players to completely ignore collisions.

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37 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

Just to clarify, I based my comment on the assumption that measures against element stacking would be automatic, i.e. that the game knows when elements overlap and can delete the offending ship (or destroy the offending elements) without human intervention.

 

Because I assumed that the only reason why it wasn't enforced before is precisely because NQ hadn't implemented such an automated system yet. What else would be the reason? And what other reason to suddenly start enforcing it now?

 

If on the other hand NQ plans on doing all this manually in response to player-submitted tickets, and judge it on a case-by-case basis according to common sense and reason, then all I have to say is... BWAAHAHAAAHAAAAHAAAAA!!!!11

 

 

 

I don't think it would be possible for them to automate something like this, without deleting 90% of the ships in the game in the process.

 

Would it really be so bad if they simply stopped the exploit and firmly asked everyone to get rid of their stacked ships if they have any?

 

If the choices are losing/rebuilding 90% of the legitimate ships in the game, or a few nerds flying around stacked ships until someone eventually reports them.  I'll take the second option.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

Would it really be so bad if they simply stopped the exploit and firmly asked everyone to get rid of their stacked ships if they have any?

 

In a way, that's what they are doing.

They said the exploit is fixed with next patch and ppl using stacked items should remove the stacked items or else.

The only thing between this and what you hoped is to remove the "or else".
But how "firmly" would they be asking without the "or else"?
Should they say "please" 3 times?
Should day say that a kitten is sad?

There is a topic, long before this one, saying that using exploits is a bannable offense.
This is clearly an exploit......

I think doing it this way is actually going too soft on players.
If I was NQ I would roll some exploiter heads with some permanent bans.

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9 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

In a way, that's what they are doing.

 

Oh that's what i meant, i think that's exactly what they're doing.  And the "or else" is good too.  I'm just saying they don't need an automated system, "or else" is good enough.

 

But i don't think anyone should be getting banned over this.  I mean right now no one has done anything against the rules at all.  NQ basically promoted it by announcing that it was possible and that they weren't considering it an exploit.

 

They also announced that it wouldn't always be possible and that ships with stacked elements wouldn't work eventually, so i have no idea why anyone was buying or selling ships like that.  But that's just poor judgment, not exploiting.

 

The only thing that would be considered an exploit here would be knowingly keeping a ship or a blueprint, after Ares, with elements that were stacked using the exploit.

 

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There s one thing about deleting Ships that does not sound right.

If you have one old ship and do the debug. But you miss one Item => poof. No way to find in advance the Item.

One way to eliminate the Bugged Ships woulbe to make them not Moving, flying or anything, only maneuver to place them in a museum.
Even the Containers, if they are bugged, you an declare them to 0,0m³ capacity.

There are lot nice looking constructs that will dissaper and not only become useles.

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