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Discourse on changing the skill tree mechanics.


Zarcata
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I would like to propose a change in the structure of the skill tree for DU to create more individual skill possibilities for the players.
At the moment I see that many players use the same basic skills, not because they want to, but because the talent tree says so, in order to get to higher level opportunities.
But in the basic idea of the game there should be real specialists, so I think that the current situation limits these possibilities very much.
The skill trees should be more in-depth and the further you skill into them, the more worthwhile bonuses should be unlocked. There should not be the same bonus per tier level (T1 =+2%, T2 =+2% T3=+2%), but more bonuses the further you skill. (T1 = +0.2%, T2 = 0.6%,.....T10 = +6%)
In terms of time and bonuses, you really have to decide in the long term whether you want to concentrate on rare engines or rather on advanced engines, and there should also be a decision on size, i.e. whether I want to produce S-M-L-XL engines as a producer.
At the moment, you can skill through everything relatively quickly and then simply produce everything with full bonuses.  That's too fast and doesn't leave any gaps in the market to really specialise.

The same system could be introduced much earlier in the production chain. Why should a producer of engines be able to skill the whole line himself and get all the bonuses out of it without outside help?

Why can't you, for example, introduce an enormous difference in production and quality at the very bottom, in ores, in refinement, in screws, pipes, intermediate parts, structural parts? 

It would be nice if engine producers had to rely on other players. from whom do I buy screws, from whom steel or stainless steel, which player offers me the best quality or the best price. if I can set up and skill everything myself within a short time, it will remain a solo game and players will build up enormous solo factories over the course of the game and, as is currently the case, only distinguish themselves by a price war on the market, who sells his product and how far below value.


Since I cannot judge how well the translators work, here is my original.

 

Quote

 

Ich möchte für DU eine Änderung der Struktur im Skillbaum vorschlagen, um mehr individuelle Skillmöglichkeiten bei den Spielern zu erschaffen.
Momentan sehe ich, dass viele Spieler die gleichen Grundskills nutzen, nicht, weil sie es wollen, sondern, weil der Talentbaum es so vorgibt, um an höherwertigere Möglichkeiten heranzukommen.
Im Grundgedanken des Spieles sollte es aber wirkliche Spezialisten geben, daher denke ich, dass die momentane Situation diese Möglichkeiten doch sehr stark begrenzt.
Die Skillbäume sollten mehr in die Tiefe gehen und je weiter man dort rein skillt, desto lohnenswertere Boni sollten freigeschalten werden. Dabei sollte es nicht den gleichen Boni je Tier-Stufe geben (T1 =+2%, T2 =+2% T3=+2%), sondern mehr Boni, je weiter man skillt. (T1 = +0,2%, T2 = 0,6%,.....T10 = +6%)
Es sollte sich zeitlich und vom Boni her so ausgehen, dass man sich wirklich auch langfristig entscheiden muss, ob man sich auf Triebwerke der Stufe rare konzentriert oder doch lieber auf Triebwerke der Stufe advanced, ebenso sollte es eine Entscheidung der Größe geben, also, ob ich als Produzent dann S-M-L-XL Triebwerke herstellen möchte.
Momentan kann man alles relativ schnell durchskillen und produziert dann einfach alles mit vollen Boni.  Das geht zu schnell und lässt auf dem Markt keine Lücken, um sich wirklich zu spezialisieren.

DAs gleiche System könnte man aber schon viel früher in der Produktionskette einführen. Wieso sollte ein Produzent von Triebwerken die ganze Linie selbst skillen und alle Boni ohne fremde Hilfe da rausholen können?

Wieso kann man zb eine enormen Produktions und Qualitätsunterschied nichts chon ganz unten einführen, bei den Erzen, bei der Veredelung, bei Schrauben, Rohren, Zwischenteile, Strukturteile. 

Es wäre schön, wenn man sich als Produzent von Engine auf andere Spieler verlassen muss. von wem kaufe ich schrauben, von wem den Stahl oder Edelstahl, welche Spieler bietet mir die beste Qualität oder den besten Preis. wenn ich alles selbst binnen kurzer Zeit aufstellen und skillen kann, wird es ein Solospiel bleiben und Spieler werden im Laufe des Spieles enorme Sologigafabriken aufbauen und sich wie aktuell nur durch einen Preiskampf am markt unterscheiden, we sein Produkt wie weit unter wert verkauft.

 

 

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NQ pretty much copied the skill system used in EVE. Well, the top level, they forgot about most of the intricate inter-dependencies in that system.

 

That said, the 80-20-20-80 system they adopted is fairly standard, what is misaligned is the modifier applied to the training time.

 

What the above means is that you train 80% in 20% of the time and the the final 20% in 80% of the time needed for the complete skill. That is pretty standard in passive training MMO games.

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On 9/14/2021 at 7:18 AM, Zarcata said:

I would like to propose a change in the structure of the skill tree for DU to create more individual skill possibilities for the players.
At the moment I see that many players use the same basic skills, not because they want to, but because the talent tree says so, in order to get to higher level opportunities.
But in the basic idea of the game there should be real specialists, so I think that the current situation limits these possibilities very much.
The skill trees should be more in-depth and the further you skill into them, the more worthwhile bonuses should be unlocked. There should not be the same bonus per tier level (T1 =+2%, T2 =+2% T3=+2%), but more bonuses the further you skill. (T1 = +0.2%, T2 = 0.6%,.....T10 = +6%)
In terms of time and bonuses, you really have to decide in the long term whether you want to concentrate on rare engines or rather on advanced engines, and there should also be a decision on size, i.e. whether I want to produce S-M-L-XL engines as a producer.
At the moment, you can skill through everything relatively quickly and then simply produce everything with full bonuses.  That's too fast and doesn't leave any gaps in the market to really specialise.

The same system could be introduced much earlier in the production chain. Why should a producer of engines be able to skill the whole line himself and get all the bonuses out of it without outside help?

Why can't you, for example, introduce an enormous difference in production and quality at the very bottom, in ores, in refinement, in screws, pipes, intermediate parts, structural parts? 

It would be nice if engine producers had to rely on other players. from whom do I buy screws, from whom steel or stainless steel, which player offers me the best quality or the best price. if I can set up and skill everything myself within a short time, it will remain a solo game and players will build up enormous solo factories over the course of the game and, as is currently the case, only distinguish themselves by a price war on the market, who sells his product and how far below value.


Since I cannot judge how well the translators work, here is my original.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes.

 

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I dont see many scenarios where an engine producer is going to say I am going to buy your screws instead of produce my own.  Because in most scenarios they are going to tell a friend or an alt to produce those screws. 

 

There are no blocking skills in DU. IE in allot of games you  need to train pre skills before you can train end skills. IE you need to train frigates before you train battleships, you need to train battleships before you train carriers, you need to train carriers before you train dreadnaughts....... While there is a limited aspect in this in DU.  Because of the extreme 80/20 rule in DU, the prereqs can be completed in token amounts of time.   Meaning a DU player can get into dreadnaughts in a fraction of the time that a player who specialized in frigates and battleships and carriers and then gets into dreadnaughts. Although the first one will have a token amount of skills in BS carriers and dreadnaughts.   This is not a bad thing as it allows players to do what they want and actually allows diversity instead clones. 

 

The biggest disadvantage to this is you get situations where anyone can get into producing engines quickly although not as efficiently.  IE player A gets to level 4 in all the skills needed to produce an engine, and player B gets to level 5 in all the skills needed to produce an engine.  Meaning it cost player A 110 credits to produce an engine and it costs player B 100 credits to produce an engine. Even thow player B spent 4 times the amount of training time. 

 

Next up lets talk about diversity in the skill tree.  First of all there is no real diversity in the skill tree. It looks more like a west virginians family tree. You have  ore refining, Ingot smelting, and Intermediary parts productivity. Those are the only 3 classes of skills that effect manufacturing. (besides, fuel, ammo, honeycomb, Scrap).  All other skills are time skills. 

 

This means a player can get to 100% in manufacturing in about 15,000,000 skill points for all T1 products.  Or 90% in T1 manufacturing in 4,000,000 skill points. 

 

Beyond intermediary parts productivity (a 1 week train). there is no skills that will make you better at producing screws than someone who produces engines. Basically meaning if your max skill to make engines, you max skill to makes screws (well 1 weeks of training and you are, and your going to need that skill anyways for the other parts of the engine). 

 

Now you might say, but what about all the efficiency skills.  Those are only time savers and have little bearing over the cost of production. Because you can always add a second machine if the first one is not producing fast enough.  Granted this might change once power comes into play. However realistically I dont think power requirements is going to change this mentality that drastically. The only way they could do that is if power requirements where pretty steep. And if they make it to steep, it will result in the hate/exodus that the schematic patch brought us. 

 

They could introduce affinity skills.  Something like every 50,000,000 skill points you earn you get an affinity to spend.  Which would increase any skill you have to level 5 by 10%. IE say you took the affinity of iron ore refining. Normally you get a -15% (-15.92% because DUmath) to input material required for refining iron ore. Having an affinity in that skill would give you a -16.5 (-17.51% dumath) to input material required for refining iron ore.  

 

This would help diversity as a whole. but its not enough to result in an engine manufacture to buy screws instead of making them.  This is because the screw maker is going to make screws at 95% cost of someone who is not specialised in screw making. But he is going to sell it at 120% what a non screw maker can produce it at. Resulting in the engine maker being able to produce the screws cheaper then he can buy them.  

 

And even if you added in some skill that made it that much cheaper to make screws. The engine manufacture is just going to have a buddy or an alt make those screws.  If anything such specializations are going to limit small industrialist, since large industrialist are going to be able to pool together many players with many different specializations each step of the way. 

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