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Concern about the future of the game


shadowfyre2

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I am beginning to worry about the game.  I am not into PVP. I don't care if people fight each other but I don't have the time to be a hard core gamer. I have never been able to develop the skills to compete in pvp nor can I keep up with the equipment necessary to be more than a fly on a horses back in such combat.  With the Asteroid patch, the developers seem to be proud that they have added another way to force people to "fight over resources".  They also have said they aren't planning NPC's into the game before release.  I wanted to try to earn some credits so I could complete my heavy hauler by mining an asteroid today.  The asteroid was being camped by some pirates which destroyed one of my ships (I had one docked on my main ship so at least they didn't get the light hauler).  I found the ship was so destroyed it wasn't even recoverable on my map.  I can't make enough credits to continually create my ship.  I can't play the game enough to compete against pirates.  I can't even afford a shield nor guns for my light hauler to protect myself.  Is this the future of the game?  Are the developers making it so if you're not a pirate, or part of a large corporation, you are restricted to level 1 or 2 areas of the game, missing out on 60% of what this game has to offer?  Is this game going to be nothing more than hard core gamers killing anyone they can?  This will ruin the game for me.  I worry about when they add the static construct pvp into the game.  Will I be restricted to the 3 planets in the safe zone then?  They don't have a resource regeneration in the game at this point so the planets aren't going to be able to offer me anything to make credits or enjoy the game much past where I am now.  If the focus of the development of this game is all about adding things in the game to force combat, I am running out of places to explore, things to build, and the capability to even build ships(many of the elements aren't even for sale anymore and the means to create an industry line requires credits and ore which are camped by pirates, as per the developers design)  I believe this game has a lot of potential, but the direction of forcing pvp on those who aren't interested in pvp and not able to survive the space battles the developers envision will create a universe full of pker's and ruin the game for me.  It worries me.

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Only level 1 and 2 asteroids are in the safe zone. Confining me to level 1 or 2 content. As for making credits in mining, there's not much to be had in t1 or t2 ore anymore without a heavy hauler and that takes credits to build. I don't mind the pvp love the developers are handing out but it feels like they want to force pvp battles with their statements about fighting over resources and not adding pve content before release. My worries are there. I don't want to be a part of pvp yet that's where all the content is and will be for a while. Not that I mind if there are those who want to be pirates, but my concern is being forced into pvp or not being able to enjoy the game. For example  the ship that was destroyed isn't even on my map so I can recover and fix it. That's feature is a game breaker for me. I'll venture out beyond the safe zone but not if I can be decimated to the point I don't even have a ship to rebuild. 

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Dont worry !

I was in the same position as you but without having to go in pvp area to mine or loosing any ship. Started in safe places and outer planets with warp cells use. You can actually acquire EVERY tier ore or better do missions with or without an org to maximize your wealth . Better with an org .

After all i am turning to pvp because i now have a fortune to spend...^^ :D  AND there must be a way that players and orgs can vomit their wealth in the field of chaos ...

 

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I agree with some but also disagree with other. 

 

I agree that the game should be more friendly to non pvp players and/or lone wolfs. 

NPCs are a must. Talent bonus should be lower, specially for "on placing" to reduce big org advantages. 

 

But i disagree with your repulse to PVP. 

This is a PVP oriented game. People should be heavily rewarded for facing PVP. 

 

The trick is to make a game where non PVPers have a harder life but not an impossible life. 

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That's where I am right now however they are adding dynamic vs static construct and take that safety away. Plus, without the resource regeneration,  the ore is harder and almost impossible to find. When the game goes lives, planetary resources will become nonexistent. 

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When I started following the game years ago, the purpose of the game was to make a realistic universe. If its all about pvp, it's not for me. And after watch games in the industry for over 20 years, it will become a niche game. Maybe that's the new vision for the developers. To make a game with massive space battles. This is different from where it was when I was so looking forward to the game pre alpha. Thus my worries. Such potential only to cater to hard core pvpers because without being hard-core,  this type of game, a game where you have to build up wealth,  will be unplayable to those who have a job and can't play daily or want to be lone wolves.  And these potential gamers are part of a real universe. 

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They needs npcs but they also can't restrict level 3 and 4 content to the pvpers.  I don't mind it taking longer to build my wealth when avoiding pop, but it is beginning to feel like I'm being locked out of content because I can't play much and am not a part of a large organization 

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It was not supposed to be. In the beginning it was made very clear that PvP was only one of the 6 pillars, and not any more or less important than any of the other pillars.

I.e. one of the main selling point of DU was "make your own game" and that included not having to focus on PvP as a main part of the game.

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My point exactly. They were promising a full game for non pvpers. it is beginning to feel like I'm being locked out of content because I can't play much, not interested in pvp, and not a part of a large organization.  I'm hoping that the rest of the game is coming. I'm  worried they are focusing on pvp so much the rest of the pillars are centered around supporting pvp rather than building a robust universe.

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1 hour ago, shadowfyre2 said:

I'm  worried they are focusing on pvp so much the rest of the pillars are centered around supporting pvp rather than building a robust universe.

 

Oh please. That would be a first, and a welcome one at that. Every other game of this ilk, except perhaps Eve, has been dominated by the PvE-centric ideals.

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Might be because the games that cater too much to pvp end up failing because most pvp gamers are into games like modern warfare. But then again if that is the focus of this game, it's not the game for me. It's in its beta testing phase. I am stating concerns I have about the game and how the game feels from the point of view of a casual non pvper. If they want to lock gamers like myself out of the game, they are developing it. Maybe it will succeed,  maybe not. I'm stating my experience. 

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I think you are taking it the wrong way.

You can always risk a small ship in PvP.


For 3 million quanta you have a small full space cargo ship S.

(at this price you can find a token sold by another player) => https://du-creators.org/

 

In 2 hours of playing on Alioth you can farm for + 10 million quanta.

Pvpers are not on the asteroids 24 hours a day. By playing intelligently you can find some that are not busy. Of course from time to time you will lose a ship.

 

But now that you mine on asteroids in under an hour you can bring back an Alioth for over 20 million quanta!

The loss of a 3 million ship does not seem like the end of the world.

Otherwise please, the pvpers have nothing on the game.


Asteroids are the first time that we have resources in the PvP area and you already want to take them away from us ...


I am not asking for the end of the safe zone, not asking for non-pvp in the game.

 

Do not dislike what many think, re-read the kikcstarter and the different devblogs from a couple of years ago.
NEVER did he mention all of those safe areas in the game.


It will have to be hard core and full loot.
You have the best chair the PvErs. Let us enjoy our gameplay crumbs ...

Otherwise the asteroids of level 1 to 2 allow to have ore from tier 4 to tier 5.

I don't understand why you absolutely want to harvest T5 ore and selfishly destroy the PvP gameplay of hundreds of players.

 

You don't seem to have time to warp beacon, you don't go to PvP zone to need item T5 (no exotic weapon, no need for scrap for pvp repairs ...)

You complain that you can't do things that you never plan to do anyway ...

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7 hours ago, shadowfyre2 said:

I'm being locked out of content because I can't play much and am not a part of a large organization 

 

This "content" basicly just several additional ships parts you may use.

 

You can as well just buy them, saving up on daily money/Т1-Т2 ore sales and forget about whole trouble (no need to mine all ores or do all chain of things for them). Thing is, if you not pvper or into some organizational affairs, solo player with not much playtime, basicly only content you have:

 

1) hauling NPC missions

2) playing around voxels/lua until you die from old age

 

Nothing else to do in game for you, realisticly.

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Look people,  before I get attacked for being a care bear,  let me give my ideas that I would like to see in the game...the original intention were 6 pillars:exploration,  building,  economy,  rpg, pvp combat,  and social.  Each was supposed to be equal. Right now they have building,  economy (although I am finding that lacking on some areas), and pvp. Social should come at release though. So far it feels like the economy and building is only for supporting pvp.  Maybe that's because they are focusing on pvp right now. What attracted me to the game back then, however, was building, exploration  and rpg.  To me, rpg is more than pirates and prey. With the lack of any evidence that the other pillars will receive any attention,  the statements that there probably won't be any npcs at release and the game tentatively scheduled to be released next year, I am questioning if the game will be for me.

 

I think there would be a way for pvpers to coexist with rpgers.  Maybe establishing a 3 part universe where the outer parts are lawless, the safe zone on the inside and a large section in-between be limited pvp. Maybe have it patrolled by boss level enforcers or something. Set up a bountyhunter system so if someone was killed without returning fire they could contribute to a bounty to be place on the shooters head. The price, in comparison to the other pirates would establish a notoriety system which would determine how much information is given about that pirate, ie weapons of their favored ship for the higher leveled. or location. Next put a quality on the ore. The higher the quality,  the better the element made. IE a rail gun with a higher damage or better accuracy.   Then put the better quality in the lawless areas. This would allow rpgers to develop their elements but they wouldn't be as good as those who took the risk. As well, the higher quality ore could justify a higher asking price. I think quality shouldn't be considered for blueprints so someone could possibly make a better ship than the creator intended by collecting higher quality voxels and elements. Last change i would make to pvp is set up outposts to control the disputed areas. Here the controlling corporations could restrict or loosen the limits of the pvp in their sphere of influence but opposing corporations could attact and gain control of the outpost. There could be a bonus to talents associated with the outposts as well.  This would create a reason for massive space battles and alliances besides the asteroids. 

 

On the exploration side, I think it would be a blast if the developers allowed some of the players to be quest creators. So many are good story tellers that giving the an outlet in the game, such as exploring a lost civilization on Jago, would be a fun experience. 

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1 hour ago, shadowfyre2 said:

Look people,  before I get attacked for being a care bear,  let me give my ideas that I would like to see in the game...the original intention were 6 pillars:exploration,  building,  economy,  rpg, pvp combat,  and social.  Each was supposed to be equal. Right now they have building,  economy (although I am finding that lacking on some areas), and pvp. Social should come at release though. So far it feels like the economy and building is only for supporting pvp.  Maybe that's because they are focusing on pvp right now. What attracted me to the game back then, however, was building, exploration  and rpg.  To me, rpg is more than pirates and prey. With the lack of any evidence that the other pillars will receive any attention,  the statements that there probably won't be any npcs at release and the game tentatively scheduled to be released next year, I am questioning if the game will be for me.

 

I think there would be a way for pvpers to coexist with rpgers.  Maybe establishing a 3 part universe where the outer parts are lawless, the safe zone on the inside and a large section in-between be limited pvp. Maybe have it patrolled by boss level enforcers or something. Set up a bountyhunter system so if someone was killed without returning fire they could contribute to a bounty to be place on the shooters head. The price, in comparison to the other pirates would establish a notoriety system which would determine how much information is given about that pirate, ie weapons of their favored ship for the higher leveled. or location. Next put a quality on the ore. The higher the quality,  the better the element made. IE a rail gun with a higher damage or better accuracy.   Then put the better quality in the lawless areas. This would allow rpgers to develop their elements but they wouldn't be as good as those who took the risk. As well, the higher quality ore could justify a higher asking price. I think quality shouldn't be considered for blueprints so someone could possibly make a better ship than the creator intended by collecting higher quality voxels and elements. Last change i would make to pvp is set up outposts to control the disputed areas. Here the controlling corporations could restrict or loosen the limits of the pvp in their sphere of influence but opposing corporations could attact and gain control of the outpost. There could be a bonus to talents associated with the outposts as well.  This would create a reason for massive space battles and alliances besides the asteroids. 

 

On the exploration side, I think it would be a blast if the developers allowed some of the players to be quest creators. So many are good story tellers that giving the an outlet in the game, such as exploring a lost civilization on Jago, would be a fun experience. 

I think you are missing some major points here. NQ FINALLY putting some more focus on the combat side of the game is also good for players with focuses similar too yourself. Combat is not just needed to be a economy stimulus but it is also the foundation mechanics for any possible PVE combat in the future.  
 

Myself personally does not like the way asteroids has been implemented at all. A set area in space (a belt) with periodic generation would of made this game far more better and the current yields per T4 + 5 is borderline stupid and economy breaking since this is not finite resources. This we can agree on but being forced to pvp? No one is forcing anyone to do anything. 
 

You say you want resources at a casual pace, have you seen what’s in the 0.27 release? 
 

With that said the only resources that may well be exclusive to contested zones is T4 / 5 come release however since PVE focused players who stay in the safe zone with 0 losses too assets will be able too still accumulate wealth. purchases for these higher tier resources could be made by bartering with players who decide to take these risks and losses giving play-styles a balance to wealth and assets. 

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12 hours ago, shadowfyre2 said:

will be unplayable to those who have a job and can't play daily or want to be lone wolves.

Thats something the JC's vision failed to understand. 

 

I have given this example before and i will repeated

 

For lions to have zebras to hunt, zebras need to have plants to eat. 

 

Full pvp players are the lions

Non pvp players are the zebras

NPCs are the plants

 

If non pvp players dont have any source of joy and accomplishment(by killing easy npcs), thet will eventually quit the game (no more zebras) 

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5 hours ago, Musclethorpe said:

Every other game of this ilk, except perhaps Eve, has been dominated by the PvE-centric ideals.

 

Allowing non PVPers to play the game is not PvE-centric. 

 

Most Empyrion servers are PvE-centric. You actually have to go to a specific star to do pvp. And that star has no resources. 

 

Thats not what I want for DU. 

I want PvE players to have a harder life than PvP players. If a PvP player can make 1M quanta in 10 hours, a PvE player should need 50 hours. 

But the PvE player should be able to play the game. 

 

The idea that saying "this is not a PvE game, so screw you" is ok, is just wrong. 

This game cannot survive with only Alpha males. Someone needs to stay reasonably happy with a K/D of 0.2.

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14 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

This game cannot survive with only Alpha males. Someone needs to stay reasonably happy with a K/D of 0.2.

 

Culprit here is also extreamly stupid DU PvP systems, combo lack of meaningful 1-seaters, high price celling for competitive ships, skills (alts) pressure -- all this lower chances of more solo/casual/pve people even be bothered to try pvp, because it seems hopeless for them (and for good reason).

 

Its one of fundamental "killer" flaws of DU, that choking game since start. 

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1 hour ago, Musclethorpe said:

In terms of PvP, lions can hunt lions.

You fail to understand what a "lion" is. 

The lion is the one that makes other animals give up just by being there. 

 

This game promotes the perpetuation of "lions". Everyone else is a zebra. 

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The game was never meant to have this much safe zone content or be this playable by solos. There isn't much beyond T3 that you actually need outside of a pvp scenario. You're still capable of warp drives and cells. You can still make pretty good engines. The only element locked away from you are AGGs. 

 

You can also join a small org. You don't have to play a top 10 org to have a good group experience. Heck you're probably going to have a better time than those of us tasked with keeping this big sprawling orgs together.

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And the zebras are necessary to sustain a healthy market place.. to continue with the analogy,  lions can hunt lions and fight for territory but to not have the zebras will lead to their extinction. A pvp game cannot sustain itself. Unless the developers plan on running the market with bots for the pvpers,  the economy won't be robust enough to sustain the game long term. Without something more than being stuck in the safe zone at level 1 or 2 like a caged animal, non pvpers won't play. Players like me will take our patronage elsewhere 

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2 minutes ago, Noddles said:

The game was never meant to have this much safe zone content or be this playable by solos. There isn't much beyond T3 that you actually need outside of a pvp scenario. 

That's my concern. The game was promised to have a place for non pvpers as well as playable by solos although solos should not progress easily nor quickly. Having nothing beyond to to do but support pvp content is a game killer for me. They aren't designing the game to be pvp only. The developers want a universe to be player centric. Without merchants and industrialist to sustain the universe,  the developers will have to support these areas with bots because I won't play a game that I can't enjoy. And I'm not alone. There is a reason we can't find agg for sale on the marketplace and why it took 3 weeks for medium landing gear to be sold. The merchants and industrialist won't play if they have to start from scratch so often because the pvpers use the higher content as bait for an ambush. I want there to be pvpers but without non pvpers or bots, the economy can't survive on pvp.

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