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It is a problem that no players manage to fit into a production process. The idea was that many players would work together to produce a very high quality end product. Each of these players then specialises in one part of the production chain. 
But this is not the case at the moment. Most players build everything on one line from T1-T5. Depending on the time involved, most players are already at FullT1-T3 and then occasionally produce T4-T5.

The skill system alone is wrongly constructed, as many T-levels require a lower one. So every player inevitably has to skill everything beforehand in order to skill other things. So you don't need other players at all, because everyone has the same skill order.

What is really missing are real specialisations that bring real valuable bonuses, but then don't allow for multible mechanics, because at the moment everyone can skill everything after a certain time.


 

Translated with translator.

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On 8/28/2021 at 10:46 PM, CptLoRes said:

Yeah. Most of the changes for the game since forever has been about limiting the load on servers.

 

Large cores (1k, 2k and 4k) - got removed in pre-alpha and never returned

Schematics - limit large scale industry

Missions - Very easy on the servers

Asteroids - Restrict mining to smaller respawnable resources

Shields and material debuff - Makes voxel less relevant

Auto mining - remove the need for digging/terraforming

and so on..

 

And while some of those features may actually improve game play (anything that leads to less digging is a win in my book), it is also very clear that the server tech is struggling and that game design decisions are made with that in mind. And so the game is slowly turning into something different from the initial premise, and starting to look more and more like a traditional trading and PvP space MMO instead.

 

i dont think its server tech, i think NQ are deliberately doing this so that they can cut down costs as much as they can until release. that way they don't have to rely on players paying for subs as much until they fix shit. they even talked about this in their second devlog. IMO its much better then being in heavy debt on release.

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On 8/31/2021 at 2:09 PM, Elitez said:

Yup. Some Industry Specialists with Specific build orders would be nice to have! :)

 

Here is my question to you: 

Is it fun gameplay-wise to invest all your time attaining very specialized skill set for you to spend all your time doing very specialized work on a production-oriented economy?

 

What you want is not a game, it's a job! 

 

All miners will ever do is mine the raw ores because that is all they can ever do because you gated them. Their ores will end up in production via the putting-out system. Again, people will do very specialized work in a production line on an industrial system (factory system), or in the putting-out system (cottage system), whichever process is taken, you will end up in the end, a finished product to be sold to the service market. Again, there are people who are doing very specialized work in the service sector such as a pilot, a gunner, etc.

 

It's a job man, it's not a f*cking game! A game is supposed to be fun and not repetitive! How do you make it fun? By giving us all the options so we can have varied activity and varied experience like in Runescape and Final Fantasy XI on one character on one account. Force us into specialization and people will quit because it is not fun! Look at Ragnarok Online: you can make a character from a specific class to have a specific stat and skill build. What do people do? They fill up their character slots and even make more accounts (to expand their limited character slots) so they can have more options because it is boring to specialize! Imagine making a pure forger Blacksmith and playing the game with just that? Do you understand? It is f*cking boring! So if people do this on a class-based build-oriented game, would it be logical to just give them all the options on one character so they don't need to make so many characters to have a varied activity and varied experience? 

 

What you want is boring, apparently! They made this game specifically for the hardcores like yourself! NQ has done nothing to make their game playable! If you are looking for a rewarding experience, you can always scale a playable game! Instead they made this a difficult game fundamentally and they only listen to the hardcores, and so everyone here that is left are a handful of them! You make a difficult game, it's for the hardcores only! An inclusive game is playable and scalable! 

 

It's time that they stop catering to the hardcores if they want this game to take off!

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Hardcore really?

 

Shipbuilding has no real depth, you just need to add items to your ship without any constraints until it flies.
There is no object destruction if you crash while piloting.
All planets with all the resources in the game are 100% safe.
There is no PvE constraint on any planet.
No penalty for the death of a character.
90% of T1 objects are sold for less than their resource price on the markets.

 

Even Animal crossing seems to me more demanding than DU.

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10 hours ago, Eternal said:

 

Here is my question to you: 

Is it fun gameplay-wise to invest all your time attaining very specialized skill set for you to spend all your time doing very specialized work on a production-oriented economy?

 

What you want is not a game, it's a job! 

 

All miners will ever do is mine the raw ores because that is all they can ever do because you gated them. Their ores will end up in production via the putting-out system. Again, people will do very specialized work in a production line on an industrial system (factory system), or in the putting-out system (cottage system), whichever process is taken, you will end up in the end, a finished product to be sold to the service market. Again, there are people who are doing very specialized work in the service sector such as a pilot, a gunner, etc.

 

It's a job man, it's not a f*cking game! A game is supposed to be fun and not repetitive! How do you make it fun? By giving us all the options so we can have varied activity and varied experience like in Runescape and Final Fantasy XI on one character on one account. Force us into specialization and people will quit because it is not fun! Look at Ragnarok Online: you can make a character from a specific class to have a specific stat and skill build. What do people do? They fill up their character slots and even make more accounts (to expand their limited character slots) so they can have more options because it is boring to specialize! Imagine making a pure forger Blacksmith and playing the game with just that? Do you understand? It is f*cking boring! So if people do this on a class-based build-oriented game, would it be logical to just give them all the options on one character so they don't need to make so many characters to have a varied activity and varied experience? 

 

What you want is boring, apparently! They made this game specifically for the hardcores like yourself! NQ has done nothing to make their game playable! If you are looking for a rewarding experience, you can always scale a playable game! Instead they made this a difficult game fundamentally and they only listen to the hardcores, and so everyone here that is left are a handful of them! You make a difficult game, it's for the hardcores only! An inclusive game is playable and scalable! 

 

It's time that they stop catering to the hardcores if they want this game to take off!


The only thing hard in DU is the learning curve in order to understand what everything DU has to offer. Other than this are just choices we make in order to make our lives more/less miserable :)

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On 9/2/2021 at 1:32 PM, Knight-Sevy said:

Even Animal crossing seems to me more demanding than DU.

 

And its ok actualy!

 

I think critical thing, that was somewhat missed in smoke of events and problems, is that player base kinda... refined/adapted to actual state of game, in sort of natural selection.

 

Initialy it started with somewhat EVE-inspired pool of big dreamers about space empires and grand politics. They left. Then it was more humble, gounded level of group pvp/pve gameplay hopes -- but majority of people found little of "food" here too. Left mostly. Now its pretty much solo meditative experience for middle aged men with bit of exessive time on hands. They need no challange, nor goals to achieve and very little of game even -- just some sci-fi toys to play around in their own... hate to use "autistic", but let's say, alientated bubble.

 

Maybe its even for better, like now NQ has mostly audience up to level of their development, people who they can handle and even make relativly happy (and slowly build up without stress from more demanding audience).

 

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The problem with removing schematics now is that they've left it too long.  A lot of people have done a lot of grinding to buy into them now and have made large time/effort investments.  Getting rid of them now might well cause another bunch of players to quit because they spent many many hours getting into a good position in production and now everyone else can have the same thing without the effort.  Even giving back the money paid for the schematics might not help -- everyone has a lot of money now anyway because missions ...

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On 8/26/2021 at 9:06 PM, Elitez said:


And stop playing the victim card, players left for different reasons, including lack of pvp.

As a relatively new player I have to say that the safe zone is very much needed, because the game is already hardcore to start from scratch and achieve some basic things like a ship and a base. After about a month I'm finally finding my way to other planets like Madis and Thades, which was already hard for me.  If Alioth - Thades/Madis would be PVP zone, I would have failed and lost my ship probably on the first trip over there, which would set me practically back to zero... and probably quit the game because of it.

 

And about the schematics I can't say much yet because too new for me, but I imagine that this has to be done for balancing and avoiding market manipulation and dumping. Since the assembly machines have a relatively low  cost, there must be something else to brake super-manufacturing. In fact, adding energy management would not be bad to brake it even more.

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1 hour ago, 4ntw3rp said:

In fact, adding energy management would not be bad to brake it even more.

Yes, it would not be bad in principle. But that also applies to schematics. The problem is how they are implemented. I hope for the best but I'm afraid NQ will find a way to make energy management just as bad as schematics.

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9 hours ago, 4ntw3rp said:

As a relatively new player I have to say that the safe zone is very much needed, because the game is already hardcore to start from scratch and achieve some basic things like a ship and a base. After about a month I'm finally finding my way to other planets like Madis and Thades, which was already hard for me.  If Alioth - Thades/Madis would be PVP zone, I would have failed and lost my ship probably on the first trip over there, which would set me practically back to zero... and probably quit the game because of it.

 

And about the schematics I can't say much yet because too new for me, but I imagine that this has to be done for balancing and avoiding market manipulation and dumping. Since the assembly machines have a relatively low  cost, there must be something else to brake super-manufacturing. In fact, adding energy management would not be bad to brake it even more.

Ive been here since beta day 1 and i have tons of free for all full loot experience from other games (ark, rust, eve, darkfall,etc).  Even by default i am a pvper i was one of those that tried to do anything that i could (write on forums, write on discord, talk with few streamers) so we make NQ and JC (main dev in 2020) understand that we need safe zone to remain what it is now. Initial plan was that only Sanctuary and something around (dont recall exactly what his plans were (sept 2020 or so) but he wanted to remove the safe bubble what we all have now. He said on stream bubble will stay. I hope it stays too. Those beautiful cities must live :D

Knowing that in 1+ year we will get another system, that one can be without safe zone but DU has a hidden Second Life social agenda very well implemented in it and we all need a place to call it home or safe zone, no matter how agressive your gameplay is. I really want to think that DU is not about Hero to Zero experiences and it will never bring many traumatic experiences to those %players who dont want to engage in pvp.

 

o7

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On 8/30/2021 at 4:53 AM, Aaron Cain said:

No it did not work, most people left and will never come back and others just bought the schematics and build solo factories again. even worse, a large schematic sceme was never dealt with by NQ that made it possible for some individuals to buy stuff so cheap it broke game balance. and sure we dont see that now, but DU is not build for a few weeks.

 

adding schematics only made alot of players leave, after that nothing changed. I even have 3 factories running at the moment, even more as before schematics.

Which once again proves that the schematics were introduced, not so that people would leave, but so that the output of the quanta was, and everything was not available at once, here and now. Since before I could build almost everything on literally "one" machine, which is not approx. How can you not understand?) .. You see, you recovered and made the factory even bigger .. So what was the problem? Those who left just wanted a freebie and everything at once, but in general I have no idea that the market did not work - it was overwhelmed with a product .. and right now, production makes sense.

So yes, it worked and fixed at least a little the situation on the markets and the economic model .. Not completely .. we still have many changes ahead, but at least the basic problem of overproduction on all fronts was fixed.

but what i agree and understand.. this is yes, way how to manage and control schematic - very unusefull.. them need make some thing like databank for them .. already send to them many ways how to doit.. waiting one day what they propose to us)

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On 8/29/2021 at 6:46 AM, CptLoRes said:

Yeah. Most of the changes for the game since forever has been about limiting the load on servers.

 

Large cores (1k, 2k and 4k) - got removed in pre-alpha and never returned

Schematics - limit large scale industry

Missions - Very easy on the servers

Asteroids - Restrict mining to smaller respawnable resources

Shields and material debuff - Makes voxel less relevant

Auto mining - remove the need for digging/terraforming

and so on..

 

And while some of those features may actually improve game play (anything that leads to less digging is a win in my book), it is also very clear that the server tech is struggling and that game design decisions are made with that in mind. And so the game is slowly turning into something different from the initial premise, and starting to look more and more like a traditional trading and PvP space MMO instead.

 

If missions are very easy, why did you even add them to the list at all? just to complain once again that supposedly everything that was not entered is a problem?

And yes, I kind of agree - unloading servers - and this is logical, optimization, just initially JC spoke too much and did not think about the consequences for the technology.

But in fact .. the limitation of production and other things, it is still more pleasant than sitting in the mines without limit, and it also gives some kind of control over the flow of ore volumes to the market, and does not create blockages of ore markets, which will cause, as before, a drop in prices and the possibility of production just for a penny.

They have statistics on the consumption of ore for the year, you can calculate the required amount per capita as GDP .. Calculate this multiply by the number of players and divide by the number of tiles. we get the average value, that is, even if the players occupy the entire space, they will not receive more ore than planned per capita .. until everything is occupied, there will be a demand for ore and a shortage, which means an incentive to seize territory in the future and war for it, and also, people will think about where to invest the ore and what is needed, and not mindlessly build everything in a row in hundreds, on an endless run. That is, resources will need to start correctly and competently dispose of the goals of the team. And asteroids will help them spawn more or less ore when it is necessary, if it is necessary to correct the conditional amount of ore per GDP .. this is understandable and a child should be .. why can't you understand this? that DU needs it. And in fact, asteroids are needed just for the dynamic control of the amount of ore per capita.

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1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

That's a very unfair comment. For industry players schematics was the equivalent of a full wipe.

mmm.. no.. cose industry not erase.. only what need, just buy schematic and put them inside and run again.. Also if they have huge fabric they must be have quanta for it (other way, what do them fabric 4 month?).. All who i know industry guys after 1 week already push them industry work the same with before 0.23.. only 1 week.. 

If we talk this way.. so for PVPer also almost wipe cose change machanic? or other other and other? not funny, mate.

Thats why i say that on little bit up.. cose i didnt see any other correct reason. About manage schematic.. yes is NQ make some problem.. here i agree, and hope they can change it later.. But about "AAA schematic.. i left from game.. seriosl? from MMO cose devs add some new machanic? lol.. " sorry but is really looks strange.. I think real reason not schematic.. like sone one say more early here.. I think they just find a reason for cry more.. 

This is my mind.. i dont push to believe every one the same.. ^)  Maybe i not correct.. but that what i saw 

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1 hour ago, Feriniya said:

cose industry not erase

It stopped working. That's pretty much the same.

 

1 hour ago, Feriniya said:

only what need, just buy schematic and put them inside and run again

Given the prices of schematics that's even worse than erasing all industries and buying it again.

 

1 hour ago, Feriniya said:

Also if they have huge fabric they must be have quanta for it

The quanta required to run the industries is not anywhere near enough to buy the schematics. It was sufficient to make a small fraction of the industries running and that's it. It was not possible to use them to make money for the rest because the markets collapsed due to schematics. Everybody just sold ores to bots and nobody was buying. For the same reason it was not even possible to get quanta by selling most of the factories because everybody tried to do that and the markets have been flooded with industries.

 

1 hour ago, Feriniya said:

All who i know industry guys after 1 week already push them industry work the same with before 0.23.. only 1 week.

The industry guys who didn't horde enough money to do that left the game. Which ever way you look at it - "wanted a freebie and everything at once" is an insult. They just didn't want to lose everthing at once.

 

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1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

The industry guys who didn't horde enough money to do that left the game. Which ever way you look at it - "wanted a freebie and everything at once" is an insult. They just didn't want to lose everthing at once.

 

Yes, exactly, 0.23 fart just RIPed causal PvE players (majority of DU players at the moment of event).

 

Between players who still around to defend system, its pretty much old mega "rich"* 24/7 hoarders/flippers, who still kinda sitting of sunken cost fallacy of 1000s containers/machines/billions, saying like game is cool, give it time, long haul thing.

 

It totaly unclear for me what the even do in empty world with all this (grind for sake of grind?), but I guess its actual shrinking of "niche" of gameplay in terms of audience. Natural phenomena.

 

* to extent one can be rich in near singleplayer enviroment

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13 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

It stopped working. That's pretty much the same.

 

Given the prices of schematics that's even worse than erasing all industries and buying it again.

 

The quanta required to run the industries is not anywhere near enough to buy the schematics. It was sufficient to make a small fraction of the industries running and that's it. It was not possible to use them to make money for the rest because the markets collapsed due to schematics. Everybody just sold ores to bots and nobody was buying. For the same reason it was not even possible to get quanta by selling most of the factories because everybody tried to do that and the markets have been flooded with industries.

 

The industry guys who didn't horde enough money to do that left the game. Which ever way you look at it - "wanted a freebie and everything at once" is an insult. They just didn't want to lose everthing at once.

 

Mate i am so sorry .. but almost garanty.. we have more some thing like this soon. ^) with power or else.. when we have the same when all the things stop it.. Just them need to find way and be ready this is beta.. and lot things can change.^ ) no need to be cry or complaine... they doit game on the way and for sure lot things change.. But only one questions - why other industry guys.. include our industry guys with over 4000 machine and some more.. fixed them problem for 1-2 week and run like before.. Cose the have brain and ready to get chalenge in game.. try to find way how to solve them problem..  But some one just complain complaine and left.. lol.. good luck to them )))) DU = pain.. same like eve 

But for sure i dont wanna make unrespectable some one.. this is just mi mind and our org.. no body .. no any one left for schematic.. but we are over 70 ppl in org.. no any complaine and no any left.. for this reason.. yes it hard.. but all say is need in game.. other way economy go crash.. and collapse..  You can think about it.. 

Thats why for me ppl only say reason schematic.. i think they not really like DU and bla bla bla.. like them any way be soon be borring cose the get end game and not any target in game - and any way go from game))))

But! Any way.. i agree with you about .. they deploy this patch not correctly.. and not smooth for make changes.. with this things i agree with you mate.

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