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Please take a step back and consider....


DorianShea

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I see a lot of folk constantly wining about NQ and Dual. Just take a step back and consider

 

NQ are a 'very' small indie game developer.
Some other space games in alfa have more staff in their lighting team than the whole of NQ put together.
They will probably always be a small indie game developer.

 

Take a step back and consider....
How far NQ have come in a few years, remember the days when the server was only up for a few hours a week and even then we could barely mine let alone fly without lag crash.

Some of us know what its like at 2am bug hunting where you have to first write the tool to find the bug.
There are probably many bugs in DU that players never see that take precedence over your neat little improvements, sorry.
The last thing they need is someone who has uninstalled the game to tell them how to write one.

I mean if we just roll our eyes at you and stop listening after a while, I don't blame NQ for doing the same.

 

NQ cannot read every complaint or 'improvement' feedback. 
They are just not big enough to do that.
The best we can hope for is "There is a general feeling in the community we should do x not y" and a wait on tickets

Then someone in NQ has to make a design decision... and they get it wrong.

You have to accept that fact and move on, stop complaining about gravity!

 

This is a pretty amazing game as it is, but it may not suit your play style, it may not be the game you 'imagined' it was going to be.

If this is you and you cannot enjoy the game, move on. Surely there is a game you enjoy?

DU what you enjoy end enjoy what you DU.

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So many people forget how hard it must be to run, moderate, manage and develop a game like this. Just because you made a space game in unity once doesn't mean you should become CEO of DU.

 

I mean, do you guys have the slightest idea how hard it is to make a multiplayer game? imagine that, but the servers move, and people try to destroy the game with exploits and EULA breaks every 10 seconds.

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29 minutes ago, DorianShea said:

I see a lot of folk constantly wining about NQ and Dual. Just take a step back and consider

 

I see very few people whine about DU actually and the concerns about NQ I have and I read about seem to be mostly based in facts and conclusions drawn from existing and verifiable events

 

 

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NQ are a 'very' small indie game developer.

And?

NQ made promises and set expectations on how they would develop the game and how they would engage and work with their community. They have not kept those promises so far and frankly have a very questionable way of trying to deny their commitment even exists.

 

 

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Some other space games in alfa have more staff in their lighting team than the whole of NQ put together.

And that game has a massive, well organized and very active CM team, they produce several weekly videos, they have live shows, their devs are both approachable and responsive

 

And no, no one here is expecting that level of activity from NQ

 

 

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They will probably always be a small indie game developer.

The way they are going, I expect they will, yes. If they will even continue to even just be ..

 

 

 

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Take a step back and consider....

Sure

 

 

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How far NQ have come in a few years, remember the days when the server was only up for a few hours a week and even then we could barely mine let alone fly without lag crash.

Please tell us.. in the past .. say .. 24 months, what actual core improvements have we seen in the game. I can tell you which one that was.. voxel meshing

 

 

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Some of us know what its like at 2am bug hunting where you have to first write the tool to find the bug.

And that is fine and understandable if you are open and honest about these things like you promised you'd be when you started

 

 

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There are probably many bugs in DU that players never see that take precedence over your neat little improvements, sorry.

That is as much an assumption as you seem to accuse others of making so pot .. kettle

 

 

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The last thing they need is someone who has uninstalled the game to tell them how to write one.

No one is doing that though

 

 

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I mean if we just roll our eyes at you and stop listening after a while, I don't blame NQ for doing the same.

The have never shown any interest in engaging to begin with (and have actually confirmed they have no interest in doing that) so what's changed?

 

 

 

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NQ cannot read every complaint or 'improvement' feedback. 
They are just not big enough to do that.

Not the point, not the ask.

 

 

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The best we can hope for is "There is a general feeling in the community we should do x not y" and a wait on tickets

Then someone in NQ has to make a design decision... and they get it wrong.

You have to accept that fact and move on, stop complaining about gravity!

Making mistakes is part of the process

 

No one here is saying NQ should not make mistakes. In fact IMO they do not make enough mistakes and when they do , they linger on them for way to long trying to fix something that will not  work to begin with

 

Software development on a massive and innovative project like DU is all bout trial and error, about seeing what works or not. The trick is that you must be able and willing to fail (which I sometimes feel NQ is afraid of doing) and fail fast (meaning you notice you fail and you drop what you are trying to do and move to the next option to try again).

 

Any and all successful innovations and paradigm shifting processes and developments come from failing often and fast.. until they do not.

 

DU IS project that has the potential to change the way many play games. It is for that very reason that some of us are here as we recognize that. It is also why some of us are as vocal as we are since it seems NQ is not actually able to see that.

 

 

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This is a pretty amazing game as it is, but it may not suit your play style, it may not be the game you 'imagined' it was going to be.

 

It can be an amazing game one day yes. And also if it takes NQ four more years to make that game happen, I am actually very much OK with that. If the next NQ would start a kickstarter today for a concept similar to DU I'd probably back it again... even when I see NQ not getting to where they envisioned they would go. And I would do so because I actually understand what "fail often, fail fast" means..

 

 

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If this is you and you cannot enjoy the game, move on. Surely there is a game you enjoy?

DU what you enjoy end enjoy what you DU.

 

Again, not he point of this entire debate but I do not blame you for not understanding that.

 

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I believe each and every customer has every right to express their concerns and grievances for the product they have paid for and in no mean resembles project advertised in kickstarter much less anything akin to what you see in videos and early pre-alpha previews.  Additionally majority of the issues with NQ's product were well known and documented all the way back 

in early alpha, and very little was done in terms of remedies to these issues. What's even more interesting to consider is the fact the NDA we had to agree to was never lifted, not even after beta launch. I've been in quite a few alpha programs, both paid and free  and i have never ever encountered such draconian terms.

 

Now before you resort to pejorative expressions like "whining" let's put a few numbers into perspective and compare them with other past projects of the kind. 

 

First of all NQ is not indie developer by any meaning of the word.  The moment you have venture capital involved, you're not independent anymore. It's not necesarily a bad thing, quite the opposite.  But even if you were to broaden the definition to anything self published on a dime 20mil+KS money+Alpha backer money gives you a number which is very much outside of realm of what is generally considered indie community backed project.

 

Now let consider past project that bears the closest semblance to DU and even JC's original pitch can be summarize as "that game" but bigger and in voxels.

 

CCP developed Eve Online in 2.5 years  with a team of 35 developers on a buget of 2.6 mil euro in a small country of Iceland the pool of available developers of which is a fraction of what you'll find in Île-de-France alone and where everything is pretty much 2x as expensive as anywhere else in Europe.

 

With those 35 people  and 2.6 mil in the pocket  CCP developed their own 3D engine from scratch, developed the full server stack from scratch, built all 3D assets in house and has it run on their own metal server housed in datacenter in UK. 

 

NQ with 35 people (if the number is to be believed) and 20.6 mil in the pocket , merely licensed Uniengine2, licensed core of the server tech,  purchased most 3D assets, and leased server capacity in AWS.   

 

Now granted, CCP initial development window was in the period between 2000-2003 so it would be just fair to adjust the budget for inflation which puts it just to little above 4mil in 2020 money.

 

I rest my case

 

As i've mentioned in my previous posts, i have no regrets about forking out for being alpha backer, i did get my money's worth out it. It is but a pity that it did not go much beyond that.

I still hang around DU for tiny slim off-chance NQ gets its house back on track,

But I will not be throwing any more money at DU unless NQ can, through their actions prove, that they can get out of that development ruth they've been stuck in for past 2 years and i would caution against newcommers commiting to paid beta access until they do. There simply isn't enough value on the table for the time being.    

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bazzy_505 said:

I

 

CCP developed Eve Online in 2.5 years  with a team of 35 developers on a buget of 2.6 mil euro in a small country of Iceland the pool of available developers of which is a fraction of what you'll find in Île-de-France alone and where everything is pretty much 2x as expensive as anywhere else in Europe.

 

With those 35 people  and 2.6 mil in the pocket  CCP developed their own 3D engine from scratch, developed the full server stack from scratch, built all 3D assets in house and has it run on their own metal server housed in datacenter in UK. 

 

NQ with 35 people (if the number is to be believed) and 20.6 mil in the pocket , merely licensed Uniengine2, licensed core of the server tech,  purchased most 3D assets, and leased server capacity in AWS.   

 

Now granted, CCP initial development window was in the period between 2000-2003 so it would be just fair to adjust the budget for inflation which puts it just to little above 4mil in 2020 money.

 

 

 

Apples ... oranges ... technically you cannot fairly compare this to EVE in 2003 - this is a lot more ambitious. It might also be worth pointing out that there was way more negative posting, acrimony and general whining in the early days of EVE. Also CCP with Dust might be a more appropriate comparison and that turned out well.

 

Now CCP made some very smart choices with what they did, to be sure, and kept the really hard stuff to 'how do I single shard this' which was (and still is) very difficult. They also didn't think that players would make all the content - another smart move. In my opinion they bit off a lot less. Their 3D engine was very basic - but it was a simpler time.

 

I would also say that the expectations of what an MMO can deliver in 2003 and now are entirely different. With the vast spend on some titles setting crazy expectations (yes, SC). Twenty million while a decent sum of money is not a lot compared to some of the competition (assuming you even consider this in the same league which is another question all together).

 

I would imagine NQ are burning upwards of 5 million a year right now so I don't see their 20.6 million lasting all that long. It really isn't that much money and Paris is not Iceland.

 

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2 hours ago, Cheith said:

Apples ... oranges ... technically you cannot fairly compare this to EVE in 2003 - this is a lot more ambitious. It might also be worth pointing out that there was way more negative posting, acrimony and general whining in the early days of EVE. Also CCP with Dust might be a more appropriate comparison and that turned out well.

 

 

Actually the comparison is quite fair, CCP had to develop all their core technologies from scratch. NQ had the luxury of licensing most of them.

Also if you consider capabilities of period accurate hardware,  the scope of challenges faced were quite similar (just consider how limited the bandwidth of system bus was even on server hardware just to pick one issue from the top of my head). It's also worth mentioning difference in capabilities IDE's now compared to those 20 years ago is difference between heaven and earth.  

 

Having said that CCP is by no means an exemplary developer, they have had quite a few blunders under their hat in years that followed, But that's besides point. This is not a Marvel vs DC argument, it's about comparing two projects with similar ambition, same audience, and comparable development challenges in face of technical limitations.

 

But if you really want something relevant to challenges NQ is facing, Innes McKendrick had a really good presentation at gdc in 2017 https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024265/Continuous_World_Generation_in__No_Man_s_Sky_

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Bazzy_505 said:

 

Actually the comparison is quite fair, CCP had to develop all their core technologies from scratch. NQ had the luxury of licensing most of them.

Also if you consider capabilities of period accurate hardware,  the scope of challenges faced were quite similar (just consider how limited the bandwidth of system bus was even on server hardware just to pick one issue from the top of my head). It's also worth mentioning difference in capabilities IDE's now compared to those 20 years ago is difference between heaven and earth.  

 

Having said that CCP is by no means an exemplary developer, they have had quite a few blunders under their hat in years that followed, But that's besides point. This is not a Marvel vs DC argument, it's about comparing two projects with similar ambition, same audience, and comparable development challenges in face of technical limitations.

 

But if you really want something relevant to challenges NQ is facing, Innes McKendrick had a really good presentation at gdc in 2017 https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024265/Continuous_World_Generation_in__No_Man_s_Sky_

 

 

Sorry - 100% disagree with you - and CCP had all sorts of criticism and stability issues at the start just as a by the way. Generally makes the DU critics look like amateurs!

 

I would agree that their back end technology was very cutting edge for the time, but their front end was absolutely not. Also their scale of ambition was different from the DU challenge.

 

The DU challenge is made way harder by the decision to allow deformation at the scale they do. You can argue that it was a bad idea to go down the path, but it is an extremely hard thing to scale. Their problems are way harder than EVEs.

 

The IDE argument is a total red herring - professional IDEs in 2003 were still decent, sure not where they are now but not crippling in any way.

 

And NMS - right - the non multi player multi player game? The reformed disaster? Limited ambition and frankly spectacularly dull procedurally generated crap. Not quite sure why it is relevant and as my PCs GPU fan just died not likely to be checking that out I’m afraid until a new one arrives.

 

In the end EVE 2003 and DU 2021 are just not comparable - different eras, technologies, expectations, ambitions.

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13 hours ago, DorianShea said:

I see a lot of folk constantly wining about NQ and Dual. Just take a step back and consider

 

 

The next one who shoots himself in the knee and considers valid arguments as crying.

Too bad, I would have read through your arguments. Not like this.

Skip!

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18 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

Sadly backseat driving development seems to be the game some people enjoy most.

 

All we can do is hope NQ hears a bit of the genuine feedback through the noise.

Some of us doing the backseat driving has also been doing professional software development for 25+ years. And the way NQ is approaching this project and the community is fundamentally flawed on so many levels it makes my head hurt. Basically NQ has been trying to do waterfall (both for dev and for community communication) on a highly experimental MMO game, and that is doomed to fail.

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Actually your own advise is good OP.

But misdirected.

Take a step back from your addictive nature of collecting resources and building that cool thing, or amassing useless amounts of virtual money. Stop playing for a few months and see the situation with clear eyes. Nothing is happening. No new content. No developer communication. No CEO who's vision was the driving force of the project. The only thing that continues is allowing people to pay a monthly fee. Oh, and the insultingly hollow and 'diplomatic' responses that occasionally filter back through the forums. We are being managed like cattle. Absolute refusal to give us any real information or answer any real concerns truthfully. While at the same time being as careful as possible so as not to scare away the remaining cash cows who donate money every month.

I agree with you that if we don't want to play we should leave and not post negative comments. That's is why I hardly visit here anymore.

But trust me, I was seeing things exactly like you are now. It's foolish, a fantasy. What is worse is that I argued this exact same point against decent people in the community for a couple of months. Those same people were probably equally seeing things like you do at one point. 

NQ's biggest crime in all of this is having people who will defend them and back them up all day only to let those same people down and crush their enthusiasm one by one until we all end up in this same cynical position. I get it now. It took me a while.

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1 hour ago, Burble said:

Those same people were probably equally seeing things like you do at one point. 


Yes, most of us went through some sort of own romantic period with DU. It happened in multiple waves (do not forget -- its 6th year now from KS campaign).

 

Then you realise its all like in "The Emperor's New Clothes" by Andersen. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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