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Any progress since the dev blog dump?


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After the 3 dev blog dump the only thing of import I read there was 

 

"We want you to stop mining planets so we plan to add new mechanics so you dont have to dig"

 

And

 

"Our databases are imploding like black holes under their own weight.. we seriously underestimated database load... the sub fees cant cover the costs.. but dont worry we plan to find a solution"

 

It was nice to see a vague and indirect admission that the tech is fundamentally flawed, even if they did basically say "omg.. why are you guys digging so much, our servers cant handle it... we had no idea about this thing where players will grind for hours.. it was impossible to anticipate that players will grind so much"

 

The part where they talked about it as some kind of profound learning experience and I was out..

 

Seems like NQ is always saying that kind of stuff...

 

"Omg.. what is this 'grinding' ?didnt expect that"

"Omg Death cubes.. what is this 'meta' thing? Didnt expect that"

"Omg.. most players are solo playing... why would they do that?"

"Omg.. most players want to just have fun instead of being part of complicated organized societies.. why?"

Etc...

 

Yeah... real groundbreaking profound realizations there.

 

So I just played some solo games..

 

any new signs of hope?

 

I dont see anything except some improving docking stuff.. cause yeah.. that should be priority lol

 

Meanwhile sb has solid roadmaps and is clearly growing into a good replacement for 99% of playerbase... sure they have a more limited building and coding system.. but if anything that give me faith they are seriously aware of where bottlenecks and overload will popup.. plus actually structural integrity and good ship and ava pvp...

 

Looks like I should just wait the 1 more month till sb ea.. am I wrong?

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31 minutes ago, Vasten said:

Looks like I should just wait the 1 more month till sb ea.. am I wrong?

 

I'm not going to give you an answer to the last question because I don't want anyone to chalk me up for always talking bad about DU or scaring people away.

 

So I'll keep it short:
You are an adult, it's your money you invest in. If you don't enjoy it, you'd better look for something else. There is no point in doing something just because you have invested time and energy. This is the typical fallacy of the sunk cost.

 

We have provided long and lots of ammunition here on the DU forum to change or improve something in development. The customer has spoken up and said what bothers them and what they don't like. If someone from the upper echelons were really interested, there would probably have been improvements, but that is not the case here.

 

Personally, I am looking forward to Starbase on 17 June. No matter how many bugs Starbase will have in early access, the consistent and flawless communication with players have shown me that they value the customer. Not to forget the transparent development of the game, that there is no NDA and that the players are allowed to show everything in stream. 

 

Something NQ could take a leaf out of their book on. But for that, they would first have to understand their own player base.

 

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Initially, they promised "missions" to be the main part of 0.24 patch.

Today they release 0.25 (hint: missions are still not there).

 

What you get in 0.25 ? Optimizations.

Probably it costs too much to hold the server in its current state for the last 30 or so people who are still playing.

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Most of us called all this tone deafness out the moment they started mentioning what they were planning in 0.23. It was what, like a few weeks before the actual patch itself?

When they actually went ahead and delivered all the things that weren't wanted AND more in that patch I knew where this game was headed.

 

Some folks laughed and dismissed our voices back then, now we're all laughing at this trainwreck.

 

I still stand by my F2P or shutdown statement. I really can't see a viable comeback like this after all this time.

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1 hour ago, Shulace said:

Some folks laughed and dismissed our voices back then, now we're all laughing at this trainwreck.

 

Most of them ironicly jumped train long ago, you likely never see them again. So whole trainwreck show now its mostly for few connoisseurs.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

With so many experts on these forums you would think one of you would have just made the game yourself by now.

 

 

No one here has ever called himself an expert. I don't do this professionally, but have been in the modding scene since UT99 (Unreal Tournament) with the Unreal Engine 1.5 at the time and then a few years later with the Unreal Engine 3 as a level designer. I made a few mods for games like Ark, Skyrim, Space Engineers (wrote own programmable blocks in c#) and then ran a modded Minecraft server for a very long time, where I wrote the plugins myself. I was even more shocked when I saw that NQ tolerates calculated mining on PTS, because the ore seed is the same with the live server, which you don't want as an admin. 

 

But speaking of making an own game, funny, that you mention that: I am indeed making a game for a few weeks now on a irregular time.

It is currently a prototype that I am working on. The game is a roguelike in a randomly generated universe.

 

What I have so far:
- randomly generated and scalable universe in size
(More specifically what I can decide and place how I want it:
-> game area,
-> planet count as well as variations of biomes,

-> asteroid count,

-> space station count as well as variations of space station types (space city, laboratory, military base, pirate hideout)

-> npc ship count as well as variations of ship types (hauler, pirate, celebrity, space police, military, bounty hounter, diplomat)
-> obstacles like interstellar clouds (placeholder sprite with IC))
- Time calculation (Every movement costs you time, which I can bind individually as a method to actions and at the end I can calculate it back and store it in a separate date system)
- Dice system à la d20 (As with the time calculation, each action is stored with an argument to call the method)


I have added a screenshot of what the whole thing looks like at the moment. Maybe I'll open an offtopic thread to document the progress, we'll see.

 

But to make the leap to DU: XS Space tanks. Since we have atmospheric tanks that are xs, it's not like those stats or attributes don't exist. That doesn't take years. Scale space tank down, take same values as xs size from atmospheric tank . Afaik there are no difference in the values looking at space tank and the equivalent atmospheric model.

 

 

So instead of trying to deflect from the issue here, which is backed up with valid arguments from people who are familiar with the fundamentals of the process of modelling and programming, you shouldn't try to defame them. I want to encourage you to help make DU better. But with your statement, you only continue to fuel the problem that ails DU .

 

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Edited by SirJohn85
Minor spell correction
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Yeah, its old and fundamentaly flawed thing, that can be escalated to absurd.

 

Like you buy some food and its intolerably salty. And you like, muck, can they add little bit less salt? It means you need now to be some mucking Gordon Ramsay to have valid opinion on what can be done to make thing better? Or maybe open your own cafe to have right to judge food that is done shitty way? Do me a favour.

 

No one seriously said they are experts.

 

It is not takes 300 IQ or some professional background to spot, that videogame is deeply flawed. But granted, IT profesionals spotted that NQ doing bonkers much earlier. So it helps.
 

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47 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

Yeah, its old and fundamentaly flawed thing, that can be escalated to absurd.

 

I mean, we don't even have to discuss it much. If your customer doesn't want to play your product and would rather go to the competition, then I would wonder what's wrong with the product.

 

The last time people talked that bad about a game was New World in Alpha, when they decided to change from a PvP focused game to a PvE game, but without having PvE elements. They literally delayed the game for 1 1/2 years.

 

I would like to remind people here that DU is getting no publicity and hardly any media attention so far. DU would be torn apart in its current state. You don't have to be an expert to see that for yourself. Unless you are a reality denier, then there is not much I can do about it. 

 

"We're in a giant car heading towards a brick wall and everyones arguing over where they're going to sit."

- DU, and especially the community members who prefer to attack the people instead of addressing the issue, in a nutshell.

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I find it amusing listening to some of this as I do write software for fairly large systems for a living. Changing the fundamentals of a large, complex piece of software (which DU undoubtedly is) is not a trivial exercise. There will be at least 100s of thousand of lines of code in there and who knows how many components. Quick change, especially to core elements, does not happen - at least not without breaking a lot of things which will then just lead to more complaining.

 

Assuming this is a smallish team - after all the Kickstarter raised a relatively small amount of money - then they will have manpower issues focusing on new features and stability at the same time. Too little money, too few people. Think about what SC has burned through after its crazy money raising - and frankly this project is no less complex than SC, the focus is just different.

 

To be honest I think the expectations raised on this forum about turn around time for new features and fixing issues are completely and utterly unrealistic. While people are, of course, entitled to their opinions I don't see much sense talked here when it comes to development. 

 

Comparing the development to Starbase is also crazy - Frozenbyte is a much larger more well established company (130 employees). Starbase has also supposedly been around for 7 years - but likely with more money and more people. 

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17 minutes ago, Cheith said:

 

 

To be honest I think the expectations raised on this forum about turn around time for new features and fixing issues are completely and utterly unrealistic. While people are, of course, entitled to their opinions I don't see much sense talked here when it comes to development. 

 

Comparing the development to Starbase is also crazy - Frozenbyte is a much larger more well established company (130 employees). Starbase has also supposedly been around for 7 years - but likely with more money and more people. 

 

rememeber, it was NQ that released their 3 year roadmap, and 3 years later they were almost 2 and a half years behind schedule.


NQ were the ones saying what they were going to achieve. not us.

Then they talk about the next single patch next quarter and by the time the quarter rolls around they have removed the majority of the content from it.. that even the next patch did not introduce.

These expectations of ours are coming from THEIR roadmaps and predictions... which invariably derail within weeks, if not days of being released.

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34 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

 

rememeber, it was NQ that released their 3 year roadmap, and 3 years later they were almost 2 and a half years behind schedule.


NQ were the ones saying what they were going to achieve. not us.

Then they talk about the next single patch next quarter and by the time the quarter rolls around they have removed the majority of the content from it.. that even the next patch did not introduce.

These expectations of ours are coming from THEIR roadmaps and predictions... which invariably derail within weeks, if not days of being released.

And I would expect they thought they would raise more money. Just to put the Kickstarter funding into the perspective, the money raised might keep a team of 5 decent developers going for a year (assuming standard overheads and some support) and then they are done. 

 

Sadly software estimation is not yet a science - or even close - and it is usually underestimated. Saying that the underestimation is certainly NQs fault, not the players. They certainly own that, but in that they are not alone.

 

As to the patch - what would you rather have? Well tested and functioning features that are late or rushed features that are buggy? At this point (based on what I have read on the forums) I would be pushing things off until I was sure they functioned as well as I could make them rather than releasing them when I promised but with known issues. The community is pretty unforgiving.

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6 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

Like you buy some food and its intolerably salty. And you like, muck, can they add little bit less salt? It means you need now to be some mucking Gordon Ramsay to have valid opinion on what can be done to make thing better? Or maybe open your own cafe to have right to judge food that is done shitty way? Do me a favour.

 

No one seriously said they are experts.

 

 

It's funny you chose food as an example.  Because that's an area that i do happen to be an expert in.  If i listened to everyone who has an opinion on my food, especially the people who feel the need to share their opinions, i wouldn't be cooking my food, i'd be cooking their food.

 

And the fact is for every one person who has an opinion on how i should make my food into their food, there are a thousand people who already appreciate my food because it's my food.

 

Your opinion on my food isn't invalid because you aren't an expert.  Your opinion is invalid because i disagree with you.

 

It's not that you aren't an expert.  It's that i am.

 

You guys scream and cry and throw tantrums about how NQ isn't listening to you.   But have you considered that they are, and they just don't agree with you?

 

 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

You guys scream and cry and throw tantrums about how NQ isn't listening to you.   But have you considered that they are, and they just don't agree with you?

 

The last time they disagreed with me was when they released 0.23 patch anyway. :D

 

  

Edit:

It is amusing the valid arguments you refer to as "scream and cry". But by now I'm not used to anything else from you here, if I keep reading your posts.

Edited by SirJohn85
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0.23 was a great example how to shoot of not only your own foot, but your arm too, part of your ribcage, your gender materials and about 70% of your brain.

The total ignorance for people who abuse errors did the rest. If the intend was to loose about 80% of the playerbase to reduse lag, Mission accomplished. If it was to listen to the players and make the game more attractive so more people would play and stick with the team, fail.

 

Any update after 0.23 is technically waste of time and cash as the damage done in 0.23 cannot be undone, even not by revoking 0.23.

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1 hour ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

 

It's funny you chose food as an example.  Because that's an area that i do happen to be an expert in.  If i listened to everyone who has an opinion on my food, especially the people who feel the need to share their opinions, i wouldn't be cooking my food, i'd be cooking their food.

 

And the fact is for every one person who has an opinion on how i should make my food into their food, there are a thousand people who already appreciate my food because it's my food.

 

Your opinion on my food isn't invalid because you aren't an expert.  Your opinion is invalid because i disagree with you.

 

It's not that you aren't an expert.  It's that i am.

 

You guys scream and cry and throw tantrums about how NQ isn't listening to you.   But have you considered that they are, and they just don't agree with you?

 

 

Your rather odd metaphor is... odd.. but at least it wast a 1) Car metaphor 2) Baseball metaphor 3) US City metaphor....

 

You are clearly are an expert running a restaurant where "a thousand" of people "appreciate" your "food."

 

so here is a food metaphor for you.

 

DU is running a restaurant where the customers expected steak but got bacon.

Now, bacon in and of itself isn't bad per se, but the problem is is that it's not steak.

And if it said steak on the menu, even if the price is very reasonable for steak, then no matter how thickly they cut it, customers are going to walk out. Especially the ones who don't eat pork.

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3 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

so here is a food metaphor for you.

 

DU is running a restaurant where the customers expected steak but got bacon.

Now, bacon in and of itself isn't bad per se, but the problem is is that it's not steak.

And if it said steak on the menu, even if the price is very reasonable for steak, then no matter how thickly they cut it, customers are going to walk out. Especially the ones who don't eat pork.

 

 

Well i'd say part of the problem is that NQ started out with a twelve page Cheesecake Factory Menu that had everything from steak to sushi and lasagna.  

 

But the fact is menus change.  I think NQ is doing their best to keep everyone's favorite dish on the menu.  But the original menu may have been a bit too ambitious.

 

My question is do you all want the Cheesecake factory with a 12 page menu of frozen entrees?

 

Or do you want a real restaurant with a kitchen full of confident professionals who have a vision of their own and aren't just scrambling to please a thousand screaming customers with a thousand different ideas about what's best.

 

Because the way a lot of people talk to NQ on here, it sounds like you've given up on the idea of the later.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

Your rather odd metaphor is... odd.. but at least it wast a 1) Car metaphor 2) Baseball metaphor 3) US City metaphor....

 

You are clearly are an expert running a restaurant where "a thousand" of people "appreciate" your "food."

 

so here is a food metaphor for you.

 

DU is running a restaurant where the customers expected steak but got bacon.

Now, bacon in and of itself isn't bad per se, but the problem is is that it's not steak.

And if it said steak on the menu, even if the price is very reasonable for steak, then no matter how thickly they cut it, customers are going to walk out. Especially the ones who don't eat pork.

 

It is a fair enough point, but in the end if steak is not achievable at the price point the customers are willing to pay then you are not going to get steak - and to be honest the Kickstarter funding wouldn't even have got you Spam. So, now the customers get to make the choice:

1) keep yelling for steak they will never get,

2) decide to go to a different restaurant, or

3) have some bacon for a lower price point.

 

It takes a certain kind of mentality to persist with (1) and sadly the MMO community seems to have no shortage of that personality.

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14 minutes ago, Cheith said:

 

It is a fair enough point, but in the end if steak is not achievable at the price point the customers are willing to pay then you are not going to get steak - and to be honest the Kickstarter funding wouldn't even have got you Spam. So, now the customers get to make the choice:

1) keep yelling for steak they will never get,

2) decide to go to a different restaurant, or

3) have some bacon for a lower price point.

 

It takes a certain kind of mentality to persist with (1) and sadly the MMO community seems to have no shortage of that personality.

 

4) Bacon is no longer on the menu either....

 

  

 

1 minute ago, Sybily said:

this is making me want both steak and bacon IRL... brb

 

May I suggest filet mignon wrapped in bacon.  If you can get tenderloin at a decent price then cut it 2 inches thick roughly and wrap it in good quality bacon fixed with a toothpick.  Roll the edge in freshly ground black pepper and then fry it in a skillet with sizzling whole garlic cloves and butter.  Serve with baked potato and red wine.

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13 minutes ago, Cheith said:

 

It is a fair enough point, but in the end if steak is not achievable at the price point the customers are willing to pay then you are not going to get steak - and to be honest the Kickstarter funding wouldn't even have got you Spam. So, now the customers get to make the choice.

 

Just to put the facts on the table for a moment:
We got 600k income from players and about 3 million from investors.

In the end, a few years ago, it was 20 million. So I don't understand what that has to do with ks. 

 

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3 hours ago, Cheith said:

I find it amusing listening to some of this as I do write software for fairly large systems for a living. Changing the fundamentals of a large, complex piece of software (which DU undoubtedly is) is not a trivial exercise. There will be at least 100s of thousand of lines of code in there and who knows how many components. Quick change, especially to core elements, does not happen - at least not without breaking a lot of things which will then just lead to more complaining.

 

Changing direction and re-evaluation your heading can be a daunting task, but continue on a path to doom isn't better.

Some times you have to stop what your doing, evaluation your situation and take that stinky hard choice.

 

Hell, unless your code is mess and inconsistent as f. it might not be that bad once you get started

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3 minutes ago, SirJohn85 said:

 

Just to put the facts on the table for a moment:
We got 600k income from players and about 3 million from investors.

In the end, a few years ago, it was 20 million. So I don't understand what that has to do with ks. 

 

For the simple reason I have seen a lot of 'we put money in via KS therefore ...' chest thumping. Just putting the amount into perspective. 

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1 minute ago, Kurosawa said:

 

Changing direction and re-evaluation your heading can be a daunting task, but continue on a path to doom isn't better.

Some times you have to stop what your doing, evaluation your situation and take that stinky hard choice.

 

Hell, unless your code is mess and inconsistent as f. it might not be that bad once you get started

True, but you need time and space to do that. For something this size you would likely be looking at 12-18 months of doing nothing else to get there even if it is well designed (including testing,  etc). Probably not viable in my opinion unless you have a second team doing it and migrating in new features as they go.

 

This of course comes with the usual caveat of not having seen the code!! Could be more time than that.

 

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