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Has productivity increased now that JC has stepped down?


Shaman

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15 hours ago, Bazzy_505 said:

You are completely spot on about the insane size of strings passsed between client and server for DU.

Don't forget that NQ only just implemented voxel compression in the latest 0.25 patch which is insanity, since one of the main points for using voxels in the first place would be that the data structure compress very well. So now that there finally is compression, it is going to be interesting to see how this has impacted transfer rates.

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17 minutes ago, FrigoPorco said:

GET RID OF SCHEMATICS! For one. ADD fun gameplay. START working on PvE (an essential part of ANY MMO)

I disagree. PVE isn't really that essential for DU imo, as it kinda ruins the whole "everything built by the players" aspect to the game. plus; it's way more exciting if every battle is player made and not just some scripted sequence.

 

I definitely think that schems were added at the wrong time, but I don't necessarily think it should be removed altogether, after all it is a huge nerf to those megafactories.

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On 5/25/2021 at 12:13 PM, CptLoRes said:

Don't forget that NQ only just implemented voxel compression in the latest 0.25 patch which is insanity, since one of the main points for using voxels in the first place would be that the data structure compress very well. So now that there finally is compression, it is going to be interesting to see how this has impacted transfer rates.

It will surely help somewhat, but what would have helped more is if their engine were more content agnostic and could situationally also stream simple baked vetex arrays instead of large of chunks of voxel grid data.  But at the end of the day, these are all just technicalities.

 

The true deep issue of both DU and Starbase is that neither one is much of a game.

 

Both are are quite good at catering to the Ladmark crowd, but like in Landmark, once you have built all you wanted to build, there's little reason to hang around.  Sure you can trade or run an industry, but that too tied to premise that there is somone on the other end who has yet to build all they wanted to build. PVP is more of placeholder at the moment. PVE doesn't exist. There's no lore to give any context or structure to anything we're doing.  Exploration could have been great way to extend gameplay, but procedural generation  is rudimentary at best, no real flora or fauna, generic repetetive terrain no real points of interest other than markets. 

 

Pre blueprint fiasco, DU at least had the magic first 20-30 hours, in which you learned how build your first ship, crashed it, than built it better up to the exhilarating moment when you reached the orbit of a planet for the first time. Where DU really fails is at what happens right after that.

 

To put fine point at it, if DU were a decent game, most of us would not have minded to buy into the most expensive gaming rigs just for the chance to play it. 

 

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Apparently it's the digging that's doing them in... It seems they severely underestimated the scale of people's tolerance for sheer boredom and monotony.
Each and every voxel of ever tunnel you've ever dug and the detail in the walls of the cavity left behind after every node you've ever mined since the Balpha started is faithfully preserved voxel by voxel on their servers, even if they will never, ever be revisited again.


What would help most is if they collapsed tunnels after a defined period of inactivity and removed nodes with less than, say 500L remaining.

There could be ground elements needed to preserve tunnels within a set radius and prevent them from "collapsing"

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18 hours ago, Shaman said:

I disagree. PVE isn't really that essential for DU imo, as it kinda ruins the whole "everything built by the players" aspect to the game. plus; it's way more exciting if every battle is player made and not just some scripted sequence.

 

I definitely think that schems were added at the wrong time, but I don't necessarily think it should be removed altogether, after all it is a huge nerf to those megafactories.

lol....kinda ruins the boredom, yes. Who would want NPCs and monsters and other boring challenges like NPC ships to fight....how boooring! ! No no no....let the players do it, look at how well pvp turned out. LOL So back to Dual Miner everyone....BUILT BY PLAYERS.

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41 minutes ago, FrigoPorco said:

lol....kinda ruins the boredom, yes. Who would want NPCs and monsters and other boring challenges like NPC ships to fight....how boooring! ! No no no....let the players do it, look at how well pvp turned out. LOL So back to Dual Miner everyone....BUILT BY PLAYERS.


"Everything built by players" isn't actually a design, it's an arbitrary rule. Rules need a real justification in the design layer to make sense. There's a reason virtually every successful MMO has ample PVE content -- PVE is a big, important gear fundamental to the design of commercially successful MMOs.

 

Has there been any subscription MMO that is purely PvP? Actually curious. 

 

Both DU and SB decided to opt for this vexing hybrid of voxel builder and hardcore PvP game. Builders want permanence -- otherwise why bother building? PVP players want meaning behind PvP, otherwise why bother?

 

PVP games are a proven commodity. So are MMORPGs. So are voxel builders. Each are worth billions as a genre. Each have fantastic demographics.

 

Mashing all of them into one game? Not a proven commodity. We've seen in these forums how often people struggle with this divergence. It is far from being "obvious" that PvP + voxel building works as a genre, never mind in an MMO context where PVE has such a well-established, robust role. 

 

This is all a moot point, though. DU won't add PVE. They can't even if they wanted to.  

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3 minutes ago, ShippyLongstalking said:


"Everything built by players" isn't actually a design, it's an arbitrary rule. Rules need a real justification in the design layer to make sense. There's a reason virtually every successful MMO has ample PVE content -- PVE is a big, important gear fundamental to the design of commercially successful MMOs.

 

Has there been any subscription MMO that is purely PvP? Actually curious. 

 

Both DU and SB decided to opt for this vexing hybrid of voxel builder and hardcore PvP game. Builders want permanence -- otherwise why bother building? PVP players want meaning behind PvP, otherwise why bother?

 

PVP games are a proven commodity. So are MMORPGs. So are voxel builders. Each are worth billions as a genre. Each have fantastic demographics.

 

Mashing all of them into one game? Not a proven commodity. We've seen in these forums how often people struggle with this divergence. It is far from being "obvious" that PvP + voxel building works as a genre, never mind in an MMO context where PVE has such a well-established, robust role. 

 

This is all a moot point, though. DU won't add PVE. They can't even if they wanted to.  

 

Lazy? Stupid? or broke? WHY won't they even begin working on Pve???

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39 minutes ago, FrigoPorco said:

Empyrion: Galactic Survival (on Steam) is a game that every dev here should be playing and studying....they did all these things correctly...PvE, PvP, building, mining, auto miners....

 

Except it ain't an MMO (or at least it wasn't when I played it) and frankly has all sorts of other issues. Multiplayer on dedicated servers if you wish, but not an MMO.

The building is also tragic compared to DU, It does, though, have missions and other such things.

 

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37 minutes ago, Cheith said:

Except it ain't an MMO (or at least it wasn't when I played it) and frankly has all sorts of other issues. Multiplayer on dedicated servers if you wish, but not an MMO.

The building is also tragic compared to DU, It does, though, have missions and other such things.

 

 

Right, Empyrion isn't an MMO and has plenty of issues. I wouldn't say the building is "tragic" -- it is a lot less granular, but that isn't always a bad thing. DU really should have opted for a bit less granularity and detail in building -- it is a source of eternal technical headaches.

 

Also...let's be honest, most players won't understand voxelmancy. Very easy to create stuff in Empyrion because it is so simple. Not everyone can master DU's tools as easily. DU needs more simplicity both to reduce technical burden and to make things more intuitive for the average gamer. But that ship has sailed. 

 

1 hour ago, FrigoPorco said:

 

Lazy? Stupid? or broke? WHY won't they even begin working on Pve???

 

Because JC created this project with this idea that there'd never be PVE -- and having never even worked in games before, his ideas were not informed by experience or knowledge. 

 

Again, this ship has sailed. It's too late in the project to even bother starting work on PVE -- fixing what they have will prove difficult enough. 

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1 hour ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

 

Right, Empyrion isn't an MMO and has plenty of issues. I wouldn't say the building is "tragic" -- it is a lot less granular, but that isn't always a bad thing. DU really should have opted for a bit less granularity and detail in building -- it is a source of eternal technical headaches.

 

Also...let's be honest, most players won't understand voxelmancy. Very easy to create stuff in Empyrion because it is so simple. Not everyone can master DU's tools as easily. DU needs more simplicity both to reduce technical burden and to make things more intuitive for the average gamer. But that ship has sailed. 

 

 

Because JC created this project with this idea that there'd never be PVE -- and having never even worked in games before, his ideas were not informed by experience or knowledge. 

 

Again, this ship has sailed. It's too late in the project to even bother starting work on PVE -- fixing what they have will prove difficult enough. 

 

So....in final thoughts...it was JC who screwed this project up from the very beginning  with his unrealistic 'vision' and zero game experience, and now, they are trying to put the immense nuclear fire out. Gotcha! So who's the next video game company to take lessons form this and make us a good voxel MMO with PvE????

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16 minutes ago, FrigoPorco said:

 

So....in final thoughts...it was JC who screwed this project up from the very beginning  with his unrealistic 'vision' and zero game experience, and now, they are trying to put the immense nuclear fire out. Gotcha! So who's the next video game company to take lessons form this and make us a good voxel MMO with PvE????

 

That's my opinion, yeah. It is hard to dev a game for 6 years with no real design then try to turn it all around when the dust settles. I don't envy NQ's dev team at all. 

 

I do think someone will crack this egg because the potential for profit is huge.

 

I think it either requires an (unlikely) risk from a bigger studio or wider availability of high-level voxel engines or tools.

 

Right now, there's way too many low-level technical problems to solve just around how voxel building works. MMOs are already very complex, to do this and build out the massive amount of content required for a PVE element to work will require a lot of effort...which translates to a lot of money. 

 

Bigger studios hate risk...I'd be surprised if they attempt something so novel despite Minecraft's infamous success (yes even into 2021 Minecraft has very solid sales). 

 

So...IMO? The tech itself isn't completely cooked yet. For smaller studios to really make something at this scale with PVE, they need to spend less time on low-level details which means wider availability of voxel engines/tools. 

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4 minutes ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

 

That's my opinion, yeah. It is hard to dev a game for 6 years with no real design then try to turn it all around when the dust settles. I don't envy NQ's dev team at all. 

 

I do think someone will crack this egg because the potential for profit is huge.

 

I think it either requires an (unlikely) risk from a bigger studio or wider availability of high-level voxel engines or tools.

 

Right now, there's way too many low-level technical problems to solve just around how voxel building works. MMOs are already very complex, to do this and build out the massive amount of content required for a PVE element to work will require a lot of effort...which translates to a lot of money. 

 

Bigger studios hate risk...I'd be surprised if they attempt something so novel despite Minecraft's infamous success (yes even into 2021 Minecraft has very solid sales). 

 

So...IMO? The tech itself isn't completely cooked yet. For smaller studios to really make something at this scale with PVE, they need to spend less time on low-level details which means wider availability of voxel engines/tools. 

very well said. Let's hope. 

 

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50 minutes ago, FrigoPorco said:

 

So....in final thoughts...it was JC who screwed this project up from the very beginning  with his unrealistic 'vision' and zero game experience, and now, they are trying to put the immense nuclear fire out. Gotcha! So who's the next video game company to take lessons form this and make us a good voxel MMO with PvE????

 

There are so many other games out there with spaceships and PVE. If you want a game like that, check put the thousands of other games with that out there which do. 

 

Having none of that is what makes DU unique. I think JC not adding PvE at the very start wasn't a design oversight, nor was it a bad decision. JC wanted to make a game in a world with one server, that can handle lots of players at once, and he succeeded. Adding PvE is just a third wheel, and makes the whole game feel less like a player experience.

 

Novaquark doesn't have to jump on the whole 'if it's and MMO, it must have PvE' trend. DU has always been about the players, and it should stay that way.

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7 minutes ago, Shaman said:

 

There are so many other games out there with spaceships and PVE. If you want a game like that, check put the thousands of other games with that out there which do. 

 

Having none of that is what makes DU unique. I think JC not adding PvE at the very start wasn't a design oversight, nor was it a bad decision. JC wanted to make a game in a world with one server, that can handle lots of players at once, and he succeeded. Adding PvE is just a third wheel, and makes the whole game feel less like a player experience.

 

Novaquark doesn't have to jump on the whole 'if it's and MMO, it must have PvE' trend. DU has always been about the players, and it should stay that way. It even goes against the games own lore: https://dualuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence

so by unique, you mean boring? the so called 'player experience' is digging and building...nothing more. PvP is a complete fail. So a nice voxel builder with PvE would be excellent, and would succeed.....but as someone mentioned ...NQ has missed the boat. Can they build a raft? Maybe. JC's vision of this game didn't work. It was a FAILURE. Now, NQ is stuck with this albatross around their neck. What is the next step? Perhaps sell this to an actual game company who will make it 'fun' to play. And as far as 'game lore'....WHAT A JOKE....I made more game lore than these people ever did, their version of game lore was another major fail. YES....Dual Universe would benefit greatly from even a basic PvE system....before the game dies completely. 

 

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SUGGESTIONS: Do a wipe, then make 3 starting factions...1 on Alioth, 1 on Thedes and 1 on Madis....start them all at war with one another. TADAAAAAAA! Now you have structured PvP! I suggested this 3 months ago when I started playing. 

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So, I don't think the ship has sailed for DU. One of the huge issues is the amount of Voxel stuff going on because people are constantly digging. That is a lot of updates for, in reality, very little purpose. No one else has succeed at this level of voxel deformation in an MMO either - in fact no one has succeeded with less on a planetary scale.

 

The mining units may solve many of the issues with server DB performance just by reducing the activity - but we shall see. I would certainly suggest they cap the digging possible also to further reduce the possible damage and just the overall number of Voxels. Going down a couple of hundred meters should be more than enough before we hit an artificial 'bedrock' (yes I used a Minecraft term :) )

 

We should also decouple the PVE argument from this. I think the world needs at least some 'life' even if we don't have PvE. Currently there isn't even enough 'E' in the game with no creatures or birds just wandering around on the planets that would support it. Personally I don't believe in the 'player made experience' BS that is touted. I have not seen a working example and at best I have seen player enhanced experiences with the game supporting the core elements with some PvE basics.

 

Just my x cents worth.

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8 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

Apparently it's the digging that's doing them in... It seems they severely underestimated the scale of people's tolerance for sheer boredom and monotony.
Each and every voxel of ever tunnel you've ever dug and the detail in the walls of the cavity left behind after every node you've ever mined since the Balpha started is faithfully preserved voxel by voxel on their servers, even if they will never, ever be revisited again.


What would help most is if they collapsed tunnels after a defined period of inactivity and removed nodes with less than, say 500L remaining.

There could be ground elements needed to preserve tunnels within a set radius and prevent them from "collapsing"

NQ is not preparing for the end of mining that we are currently experiencing ?
 

In view of the latest announcements we will soon have:
- A surface ore buff (harvest tool)
- Automatic minning units with scanning gameplay to find the best tiles + maybe PvP one day
- Temporary asteroids several hundred meters in diameter in which we can make holes again. Asteroid disappearing from the game data thus freeing up performance, monies, time for NQ.
 

I might be missing something, but once these 3 new mining elements are in play why keep the old way of mining? Maybe this will free up enough money to make NQ's technology economically viable. And we would finally see some content coming to the game maybe.

Oh and certainly a resetting of the planets' soil to be expected. But this time with no real reason to dig ...

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1 hour ago, FrigoPorco said:

so by unique, you mean boring? the so called 'player experience' is digging and building...nothing more. PvP is a complete fail. So a nice voxel builder with PvE would be excellent, and would succeed.....but as someone mentioned ...NQ has missed the boat. Can they build a raft? Maybe. JC's vision of this game didn't work. It was a FAILURE. Now, NQ is stuck with this albatross around their neck. What is the next step? Perhaps sell this to an actual game company who will make it 'fun' to play. And as far as 'game lore'....WHAT A JOKE....I made more game lore than these people ever did, their version of game lore was another major fail. YES....Dual Universe would benefit greatly from even a basic PvE system....before the game dies completely. 

 

 

Digging and building is incomplete, PVP is literally just a placeholder right now, and missions, territory warfare and asteroid mining are still yet to be finished. Adding PvE would do nothing but delay the time it takes for novaquark to get the core pillars of the game implemented, and with a game like this PvE is not one of them. You call this game a failure, but the game is still 1 and a half years from release.

 

But fine, since it seems like it will be impossible to change your opinion, let's just say NQ does, starting from now. This is what would happen:

  1. the next four-six months or so would consist of absolutely no updates because NQ would be using all of their dev time on PvE. This leads to almost everyone in the game leaving to play other games.
  2. PvE is finally released; More people log in to test it out, but a large portion of the community have already left the playerbase entirely.
  3. Because of how broken PvP is already, the only way to fight is in expensive L core ships, a paywall of about 50-150 Million quanta. Most people don't experience PvE because of this
  4. Haulers warp between planets more than ever before, since haulers don't want to take the risk of flying past NPC's while slowboating.
  5. PvP essentially dies, because pirates have no haulers to catch since they all warp.
  6. after a few weeks of people fighting NPC's over and over again, people get bored of the repetitive gameplay and go back to the much cheaper and safer mining system. We are back at square one.

Adding PvE to the game is just another spanner in the works.

 

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1 hour ago, Shaman said:

 

Digging and building is incomplete, PVP is literally just a placeholder right now, and missions, territory warfare and asteroid mining are still yet to be finished. Adding PvE would do nothing but delay the time it takes for novaquark to get the core pillars of the game implemented, and with a game like this PvE is not one of them. You call this game a failure, but the game is still 1 and a half years from release.

 

But fine, since it seems like it will be impossible to change your opinion, let's just say NQ does, starting from now. This is what would happen:

  1. the next four-six months or so would consist of absolutely no updates because NQ would be using all of their dev time on PvE. This leads to almost everyone in the game leaving to play other games.
  2. PvE is finally released; More people log in to test it out, but a large portion of the community have already left the playerbase entirely.
  3. Because of how broken PvP is already, the only way to fight is in expensive L core ships, a paywall of about 50-150 Million quanta. Most people don't experience PvE because of this
  4. Haulers warp between planets more than ever before, since haulers don't want to take the risk of flying past NPC's while slowboating.
  5. PvP essentially dies, because pirates have no haulers to catch since they all warp.
  6. after a few weeks of people fighting NPC's over and over again, people get bored of the repetitive gameplay and go back to the much cheaper and safer mining system. We are back at square one.

Adding PvE to the game is just another spanner in the works.

 

 

I'm calling this a mining and building simulator. There's no 'game'...PvE would certainly add some game. Well structured PvP would also add game. Ship building is fun. Building structures is fun, and both are unparalleled in any other game. But that's it. Obviously your assessment of PvE is your own. Look at how broken No Man's Sky was, and they fixed it. People would back PvE and wait for it. 

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On 5/25/2021 at 10:23 PM, Shaman said:

it's way more exciting if every battle is player made and not just some scripted sequence

Not for the casual player that keeps loosing battles.

 

And you know what DU needs the most? Casual players.....
They pay a full subscription, while being online a fraction of the time.

They have a fraction of assets than hardcore players, making their infrastructure requirements smaller.

They attract new subscriptions to the game. As they spend more time with ppl outside the community compared to hardcore players.

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5 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Not for the casual player that keeps loosing battles.

 

And you know what DU needs the most? Casual players.....
They pay a full subscription, while being online a fraction of the time.

They have a fraction of assets than hardcore players, making their infrastructure requirements smaller.

They attract new subscriptions to the game. As they spend more time with ppl outside the community compared to hardcore players.

well said...

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11 hours ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

Has there been any subscription MMO that is purely PvP? Actually curious. 


No, at least not a one that survived infancy. I believe there were some experiments close to no PvE, but they all ultimatly failed.

 

Even more, facts prove contrary -- pretty weak games in terms of overall sucess and population, still limping around on dedicated fan bases, who stay & pay solely for PvE. Reason quite clear -- sub (and not only sub) games to large extent carried by more or less casual players, who usualy prefer focus on PvE content. Its like 1+1. Hardcore players can use PvE quite a lot too, even if see its like more technical beefing up grind. 

 

So NQ desicion was horribly wrong. All this "civilization building" BS story dissipated in air and majority of people discovered there is nothing to actualy do.

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