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Remove 'Mega Nodes'


Cheith

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Right now people are obsessed with Mega Nodes just mining them out of a hex and moving on. By all means have variable amounts of ore per hex - all for that - just remove the huge single nodes in a hex so that folks actually have to move around a little and mine out the different kinds of ore. For whatever reason there is some bizarre idea that because there are less mega left nodes on Alioth the ore has run out and this is just crazy.

Mega nodes give an unhealthy resource focus - kill them all!! 

 

Once we get automated mining this will be especially important.

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While it certainly doesn't apply to everyone's style, a lot of the folk I see going after megas tend to strip them clean fairly quickly and move on, either selling them or taking them back to a base somewhere (often by this point well removed from the location they mined it) to be processed.

 

As for ore running out, there are still plenty of regular nodes, and even many of the hexes on moons without megas (or that have had the megas mined out) have on average several times more ore per hex than ----------------------------------------------------------- REDACTED (NDA) ------------------------------------------------------------- spit without hitting one, but that was more the exception than the rule.

 

You wont solve crazy by removing the part of the game being fixated on for how it is disappearing, you'll just chase off the people that are so obsessed with them as to think the game is unplayable with their loss, and I'd like to keep them paying NQ to help continue improving the game for the rest of us.

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4 hours ago, Taelessael said:

While it certainly doesn't apply to everyone's style, a lot of the folk I see going after megas tend to strip them clean fairly quickly and move on, either selling them or taking them back to a base somewhere (often by this point well removed from the location they mined it) to be processed.

 

As for ore running out, there are still plenty of regular nodes, and even many of the hexes on moons without megas (or that have had the megas mined out) have on average several times more ore per hex than ----------------------------------------------------------- REDACTED (NDA) ------------------------------------------------------------- spit without hitting one, but that was more the exception than the rule.

 

You wont solve crazy by removing the part of the game being fixated on for how it is disappearing, you'll just chase off the people that are so obsessed with them as to think the game is unplayable with their loss, and I'd like to keep them paying NQ to help continue improving the game for the rest of us.

I parked my base on a semi-random tile on Alioth and it and the four nearest unoccupied tiles all had their mega node removed plus any big Tier 2 elements but all of them still had more than 1ML of ore left on them (one almost 2ML left). Just my experience. I am happy to mine them out - just personally think the focus on the mega nodes is harming the game.

 

Not a fan of - but if we remove this X will leave argument - otherwise nothing would ever change because there is almost always someone who will leave if you change X.

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I am aware someone will always leave (or threaten to) if something changes, but aside from disproving the "the universe will run out of ore next month because there are fewer mega-nodes" argument for the... how many months has beta been going? The argument has been disproved that many times... Anyways...

 

With or without mega-nodes there's always some clown spouting about how their "math" says that if "everyone" went mining we would clear planets of all their ore (and possibly all the dirt) in less than a month, and then they start saying the game is horrible because NQ isn't re-filling the ore or procedurally generating more or some such and that the entire universe will run out in only a month... because their "math" says it can happen, therefore it is absolutely guaranteed to happen... This argument has been made more times than I care to count in the past already, both when there were and when there weren't mega-nodes.

 

Again, if you remove the mega-nodes you'll just chase off the players that don't like playing without them, and then you'll still be listening to clowns spouting about how their "math" says the universe "will" run out of ore next month, they just wont be using the mild difficulty in finding mega-nodes as their point of reference. I'd rather have a few more of the clowns paying to play, along with all the folk that don't try to make the argument but still find mining non-megas too tedious, because they still contribute to NQ's ability to improve things for the rest of us. 

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Firstly, beta, still working on new systems including mining.

 

But if people just remove a mega, then that is good, as it means there is still lots of ore available for those who are happy with a more relaxed pace of mining.

 

As megas start to run out, then it will just be the definition of how much is worth it will change. 

 

One problem NQ is having is huge amounts of tunnels are killing their database. They probably prefer megas as a big hole probably takes less DB to store than the same amount of space in lots of little spread out holes.

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On 5/15/2021 at 12:59 PM, Taelessael said:

I am aware someone will always leave (or threaten to) if something changes, but aside from disproving the "the universe will run out of ore next month because there are fewer mega-nodes" argument for the... how many months has beta been going? The argument has been disproved that many times... Anyways...

 

With or without mega-nodes there's always some clown spouting about how their "math" says that if "everyone" went mining we would clear planets of all their ore (and possibly all the dirt) in less than a month, and then they start saying the game is horrible because NQ isn't re-filling the ore or procedurally generating more or some such and that the entire universe will run out in only a month... because their "math" says it can happen, therefore it is absolutely guaranteed to happen... This argument has been made more times than I care to count in the past already, both when there were and when there weren't mega-nodes.

 

Again, if you remove the mega-nodes you'll just chase off the players that don't like playing without them, and then you'll still be listening to clowns spouting about how their "math" says the universe "will" run out of ore next month, they just wont be using the mild difficulty in finding mega-nodes as their point of reference. I'd rather have a few more of the clowns paying to play, along with all the folk that don't try to make the argument but still find mining non-megas too tedious, because they still contribute to NQ's ability to improve things for the rest of us. 

I wouldn't argue with any of that but there are much better solutions that mega nodes. Mining should have some level of difficultly to it and mega nodes are not that - they are just an extremely tedious and boring lot of mouse clicking with basically no interruption. Now that makes mining extremely boring.

Make the mining mini-game better, make fewer nodes with denser resources rather than lots of small nodes and a mega node; make the direction finding work at longer range - would certainly create less tunnels; if you do the automation make the ability to find the ores from the surface and set up your miners there - possibly no tunnels at all; lots of things could be done. None of them require mega nodes - indeed mega nodes may even get in the way.

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20 hours ago, CoyoteNZ said:

Firstly, beta, still working on new systems including mining.

 

But if people just remove a mega, then that is good, as it means there is still lots of ore available for those who are happy with a more relaxed pace of mining.

 

As megas start to run out, then it will just be the definition of how much is worth it will change. 

 

One problem NQ is having is huge amounts of tunnels are killing their database. They probably prefer megas as a big hole probably takes less DB to store than the same amount of space in lots of little spread out holes.

Yeah - beta why one is putting out ideas - so, yeah beta.

Who knows on how they store their 'holes' or missing voxels basically.

As I mention above you could change it completely and remove 'holes' if you wanted - but I am pretty sure that is a major rework. Nothing needs megas and if ever there was a boring mining mechanic megas are it.

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5 hours ago, Cheith said:

I wouldn't argue with any of that but there are much better solutions that mega nodes. Mining should have some level of difficultly to it and mega nodes are not that - they are just an extremely tedious and boring lot of mouse clicking with basically no interruption. Now that makes mining extremely boring.

Make the mining mini-game better, make fewer nodes with denser resources rather than lots of small nodes and a mega node; make the direction finding work at longer range - would certainly create less tunnels; if you do the automation make the ability to find the ores from the surface and set up your miners there - possibly no tunnels at all; lots of things could be done. None of them require mega nodes - indeed mega nodes may even get in the way.

Mining is amongst other things supposed to be the go-to for new players looking to make some cash if they either want to start the game from the bottom and work up, or have yet to join a faction that can get them in to something else (assuming they ultimately want to do something else), difficulty is in fact the thing it shouldn't have. If you want difficulty in mining then go after higher tier ores on planets with larger hexes and wider ranges of spawn depth, and leave the megas for the people that still want them. Alternatively, you may wish to just wait for asteroids so you can take up combat-mining.

 

If they want to reduce tunnels, then they either need to get an automated system in play to fill them in once players are done with them, a system to remove the need to dig at all, or they'd need to reduce the number of nodes and the volume they occupy (which would probably for balance reasons involve also increasing the amount of ore obtained for a scoop of a given size, and increasing the time required to harvest said scoop, making everything play less like regular mining and more like "all nodes are mega"). It should also be noted that this scenario does not remove megas, nor does it require megas to be removed if it happens, it just makes them take up less space in the ground just like all the other nodes.

 

Could you please explain how megas get in the way of reducing tunnels short of entirely removing the need to dig for mining? Also, in the digging not required scenario, please keep in mind that this will very likely involve scanning down a good hex, dropping your harvester, and watching it work for hours/days, turning your t-scan-and-dig game in to a t-scan-deploy-and-sit game, no skill, no difficulty, and doing even less. While I personally wouldn't mind as I don't much care for mining (I dot it because I need supplies, megas reduce the work and time I spend for a given amount of supply) and it would allow me to focus my time else-ware, it would seem to run contrary to your suggestion of making them more difficult and less boring.  

 

If I recall, the point of megas was to be that rare thing someone finds and says "jackpot" on, tis a lot of work to mine but it is far less work over all than mining an equal amount of ore from smaller nodes. Presumably they expected a player would be more likely to get friends to help dog-pile the thing and get it done much more quickly. Taking them away just seems to be sacrificing those that like them and those that mine them co-op to improve things for those that don't, and while space-building-mmo is already fairly niche, NQ still wants (and should want) to "cast a wider net".

 

People that don't want megas can still play just fine with them, they can avoid them if they don't want them, so why remove them if they aren't removing the mining mini-game entirely? I am not interested in knowing the obvious "the game can be played without them" or "they aren't needed if we remove the mining-game entirely" I want to know specifically how removing just the megas while leaving the other nodes will improve the game for everyone. Not just you, or your play-group, and not just the "there are more that do X than Y because I said so, therefore we should toss Y under the bus", how does it improve things for everyone? (And please skip the "you can't please everyone" argument, nobody cares that anyone can nit-pick the countless flaws in the English language, explain to me how it will be better for everyone). 

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9 hours ago, Taelessael said:

 

 

 

People that don't want megas can still play just fine with them, they can avoid them if they don't want them, so why remove them if they aren't removing the mining mini-game entirely? I am not interested in knowing the obvious "the game can be played without them" or "they aren't needed if we remove the mining-game entirely" I want to know specifically how removing just the megas while leaving the other nodes will improve the game for everyone. Not just you, or your play-group, and not just the "there are more that do X than Y because I said so, therefore we should toss Y under the bus", how does it improve things for everyone? (And please skip the "you can't please everyone" argument, nobody cares that anyone can nit-pick the countless flaws in the English language, explain to me how it will be better for everyone). 

Um, if you are going to throw in the comment on 'please don't give me the following argument' then please don't start with the old favorite of 'if you don't want it ignore it'.

 

As this is all opinion - in my opinion removing megas makes a more balanced mining game and make it more likely hexes will be mined out. It will remove the 'cherry picking' of single nodes out of a hex which, again in my opinion, is bad for the game and favors a well-off established gamer who can afford all the scanning equipment. Mega-hunting is not new player friendly. Megas also create multiple tunnel 'sets' in a hex - where you have one lot of folks tunneling and finding the mega before leaving and another set of people tunneling and finding everything else. Not great if you are trying to cut down on tunnels.

 

Frankly I am not a great fan of the automated mining and would much rather keep an interactive mining option - one reason I like the find/mine scenario. If there are tunnel issues I understand changing it, but frankly I wouldn't otherwise. As I said before the thing that makes mining more boring is just clicking on the same node continuously. Single continuous repetitive actions are just a bad thing for all sorts of reasons (including things like RSI).

 

And it won't be better for everyone - I am not claiming it will and not even trying - my goal would be to make it better for most people who wish to mine, after all those are the people who use the system the most. If you don't wish to mine, don't - just like if you don't want to build don't. The argument works both ways.

Edited by Cheith
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On 5/14/2021 at 4:07 PM, Cheith said:

Right now people are obsessed with Mega Nodes just mining them out of a hex and moving on. By all means have variable amounts of ore per hex - all for that - just remove the huge single nodes in a hex so that folks actually have to move around a little and mine out the different kinds of ore. For whatever reason there is some bizarre idea that because there are less mega left nodes on Alioth the ore has run out and this is just crazy.

Mega nodes give an unhealthy resource focus - kill them all!! 

 

Once we get automated mining this will be especially important.

I started off getting recruited by a mining guild. The owner took me to a mega and paid me 1mil to stand there for an hour and mine.  Personally I love the Megas. Big guilds can mark them and find them easily because of their size and you can get a massive haul as an org in one go. Or be able to pay a newbie to sit and click for an hour to get some good money to start the game. 

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11 hours ago, Cheith said:

Um, if you are going to throw in the comment on 'please don't give me the following argument' then please don't start with the old favorite of 'if you don't want it ignore it'.

 

As this is all opinion - in my opinion removing megas makes a more balanced mining game and make it more likely hexes will be mined out. It will remove the 'cherry picking' of single nodes out of a hex which, again in my opinion, is bad for the game and favors a well-off established gamer who can afford all the scanning equipment. Mega-hunting is not new player friendly. Megas also create multiple tunnel 'sets' in a hex - where you have one lot of folks tunneling and finding the mega before leaving and another set of people tunneling and finding everything else. Not great if you are trying to cut down on tunnels.

 

Frankly I am not a great fan of the automated mining and would much rather keep an interactive mining option - one reason I like the find/mine scenario. If there are tunnel issues I understand changing it, but frankly I wouldn't otherwise. As I said before the thing that makes mining more boring is just clicking on the same node continuously. Single continuous repetitive actions are just a bad thing for all sorts of reasons (including things like RSI).

 

And it won't be better for everyone - I am not claiming it will and not even trying - my goal would be to make it better for most people who wish to mine, after all those are the people who use the system the most. If you don't wish to mine, don't - just like if you don't want to build don't. The argument works both ways.

First, I need to apologize. I allowed real-life stuff to get me overly heated over a game and subsequently spoke poorly, and I shouldn't have. 

 

Second, I was not aware that the "if you don't want it then ignore it" had any issues in a sand-box-ish game like DU. I fully admit my head just isn't screwed on strait, so if something isn't obviously game-breaking to me at that particular moment then that particular argument seems quite reasonable to me. It could just be my particular luck, but it seems like more often than not hunting megas has more or less the same total-time efficiency as just taking everything. The only differences that I've observed is that while scanning I can put my focus else-ware (such as home-work, chores, or watching shows), and that we (my faction) can save on the time new players would spend digging randomly looking for lots of little nodes by just handing them the cords to a big one while collecting resources for faction-projects. As such I still fail to see issue with it in this area. If you are willing to explain it to me then please feel free.

 

Anyways... avoiding more established and larger groups of people entirely clearing a hex is perhaps a reason to actually keep megas. Before they were implemented players had less reason to spread out. There was more or less just a slowly expanding ring around the starting areas where older players had just dropped their bases as close as they could stand to said starting areas and then began mining up absolutely everything (if they were polite, the rude ones would leave a tiny sliver every few nodes so it looked like there was something still there). This would subsequently cause issues where new players would think they were doing something wrong because they either couldn't find anything, or they'd blow a few hours chasing slivers, decide the game was terrible, and quit. That I am no-longer seeing daily questions in chat of "I'm new, what am I doing wrong that makes me unable to find ore?" or "why does anyone play this terri-bad game when it takes an hour to find enough material to make one run of pure iron?" seems like a very good reason to me to keep people spreading out in search of megas.

 

Tunnel reduction is looking more and more like its own issue. While I do know some clowns that just dig at random and hope to get lucky if they know a mega is present (did that twice myself just to see if it was faster when I saw it done, it was not), most of what I've seen creating an excess of tunnels has either just been people not having a good grasp of the strategies one should use in finding ore underground, and/or someone going for literally everything and so constantly changing direction at the drop of a hat whenever a hiccup in the game even slightly messes with which ore shows up as the closest node. Unfortunately the mining-game isn't the most intuitive I've seen, and seeing how the mining tutorial isn't the best, and how even what it does teach isn't hard to forget in the flurry of other things you need to suddenly understand when first getting started, particularly for those without mentors. There really isn't a good fix I can think of for this particular problem that doesn't involve major changes to the DU mining-game (such as auto-mining/harvesting, periodically filling in all the holes with dirt/sand/ice on un-clamed hexes during the periodic server-maintenance shutdowns, or making the search go more like how it does in space engineers).

 

What is RSI?

 

As for the "argument works both ways", there is perhaps the singular difference that for as much as I'd like to avoid mining all together it is currently the only way I can collect sufficient resources to do what I want to do. It isn't the only way to collect resources, I just currently lack either the skills or time required to make the other ways work, so unfortunately if I want to play at all I need to mine, and mining the megas has proven to be less taxing on my desire to play the part of the game I want than mining just the regular stuff. I hope this changes in the future.

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6 hours ago, Taelessael said:

First, I need to apologize. I allowed real-life stuff to get me overly heated over a game and subsequently spoke poorly, and I shouldn't have. 

 

 

 

You are fine, we were discussing. Thanks though.

 

6 hours ago, Taelessael said:

 

 

What is RSI?

 

 

RSI - Repetitive Strain Injury. Continuous repetitive motions (such as repeatedly clicking the mouse while doing nothing else with that finger or giving it some rest) can cause muscle and other issues. Most common for computer users historically was the wrist. Having has a mild case of it in my wrist once (fortunately caught it before it got bad) it is no fun. For some people it can be debilitating. Generally you should design games to avoid these kinds of actions.

Unsurprisingly, there is a wikipedia page for it!! 

 

I don't think we will agree on this, we just have different views and that is fine. I personally am not a fan of large corps/factions in games as they tend to try and control certain areas of gameplay which may be a part of the issue for me. In the end neither of us will make the decision!! Was an interesting discussion anyway.

 

And on your last point, yes I hope there are other things to do too - games are not fun when you are forced to do things you don't like to progress (for me that is PvP)

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Honestly they just need to go through and add more nodes from the surface down to the core with more density that adds pretty much an unlimited amount of ore below the surface to work with that runs from the tiny 1-2kl nodes up to the massive ones and it would be fine even if they also added more talents to get more from less.

 

All the ore has pretty much been scanned on every moon and planet and larger orgs know where everything is and its just a matter of time before they get it. The only thing really stopping them is having to do periodic scans to update the deposits and that pretty much destroed this game for a vast majority of people who do not have that capability. Tile scanners should be removed not mega nodes if they ever repop the resources.

 

 

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Deeper nodes would allow for more ore per hex (just stretch the nodes' spawn areas for everything downwards, and continue the "the bigger nodes are lower" layout). They need to be careful about how deep they do this though, if it goes too far down they risk encouraging people to build bases that deep. The reduced work involved when the ore is "right there" combined with the defenses inherent in being too deep to shoot at in a hex nobody else can dig would make it a relatively common thing that would not sit well with the pvp-player-base once planets that allow atmo-pvp were released.

 

While I can admit that it is theoretically possible every hex has been scanned at least once by "somebody" at some point since the start of alpha, I seriously doubt that any one faction has scans for all 800k+ ore-containing hexes in game. Given the size of the player-base, it is also unlikely that anyone has the man-power to maintain even vaguely up to date scans on all of that.

 

Yes, technically there is currently a finite amount of ore, and were the game to continue running for long enough without NQ changing anything (ya know, like adding the asteroids, or new planets they tell us they are working on, or putting on a Vader mask and pressing that big red soft-wipe button in the NQ death-star that turns all of a planet's constructs in to compactified prints in their owner's invos while "performing a factory-reset" on all the dirt and ore voxel) we could theoretically run out of it. But, to put it plainly, there are not enough people playing that are that dedicated to mining such that we are likely to have to worry about running out of ore in the next few years.

 

I can buy a t-scanner for less than the cost of a pair decent of xs-interceptors (whole ships, not just prints). It may take some work for a player trying to go solo in this mmo starting from nothing to get one, but they arn't that hard to get.

 

Those scanners are there to be used by people looking for properly high-tier stuff that can sit more than a km below the surface and has a very low spawn rate. They are kind of needed if we don't want the players that prefer farming that material and selling it to the rest of us to instead chuck their comps out the window and then leave those of us that don't like mining to try and find it ourselves.

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