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Dual Universe beta timeline?


Merlin3000

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5 minutes ago, Treelover69 said:

I'm not even shilling here, I'm just pointing out objective truths about how the game was advertised ...

 

 

Wow, did you read the same page as me?  All the promises about solo players being a thing, building giant moon-sized bases, AvA, everything being player generated, etc?  The market is is run by bots, the most valuable items (schematics) are not player made, no mass producing blueprint factory, solo players have no chance, there is no AVA, no "transparent" development, we can't "create" our own markets, no missions/quests, there's no way in hell the server can support cities or ships with 100 players on it...and on and on and on.  

 

Just wow.

 

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36 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

Asking how NQ think they can actually make good on the delivering a release ready product in 9 months from where they currently are is entirely valid.

I don't and never did disagree with this. I agree and I highly doubt DU will be polished & "full" release ready in 9 months,  I'm especially concerned about AvA/Territory warfare being implemented but if they can fix the netcode to work smoother, i'll have more confidence.

I'm not going to speculate on the backend work they've done with their netcode, reducing the backend call frequency was a bandaid - I'm skeptical that's all theyve done given the improvement from Beta launch.

41 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

NQ has always and continues to seem to live in this odd internal reality bubble where the think it's all fine and they will be able to deliver with no problems.

This isn't true, the Dec 23 Look Ahead again covered what could be expected this year. How that aligns with the road map is another story (specifically it doesn't), which goes back to the first quote.

44 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

you can bet the excuse will be "as an MMO, development is never finished" which is absolute nonsense in this regard

Except this is again - objectively true. Elite dangerous only just released odyssey for Alpha after releasing in 2014. World of warcraft is still revamping and introducing systems, and in the last few years completely redid the games graphics - and it's ancient. "MMO development is never finished" is a true statement as long as they can sustain business they will continue development to retain player interest, MMORPG's are pretty much the originator of games as a service in that regard.

48 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

It all just feels like a bunch of ideas thrown together without any sort of plan or design to make it gel.

Fundamentally  I agree. There's a broader lack of coherence in the gameplay loops, and contradictions in how game mechanics have been implemented.

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21 minutes ago, Dhara said:

Wow, did you read the same page as me?  All the promises about solo players being a thing, building giant moon-sized bases, AvA, everything being player generated, etc?  The market is is run by bots, the most valuable items (schematics) are not player made, no mass producing blueprint factory, solo players have no chance, there is no AVA, no "transparent" development, we can't "create" our own markets, no missions/quests, there's no way in hell the server can support cities or ships with 100 players on it...and on and on and on.  

 

Just wow.

Yes. I did. My opinion hasn't changed

image.png.607cc758a3a17c9623d19dfe993a49d8.png -> With enough people and lag tolerance, you can do this.

- Solo players are a thing, you can function as a solo player. Note the difference in scale referenced in the kickstarter that you just quoted, multiple people will always be more efficient than 1. 

- Missions, AvA & player markets are literally coming image.png.b34c622b8d015672cd3773ce07ca1b34.pngimage.png.f37cb772f6c2da5b9189f740ea67a2e7.pngimage.png.30da195d0223334e8e453f8163c2cf28.png

- The markets are a mess but bots & schematics are not the reason why (if anything the lack of buying bots is part of the problem), specifically there's an oversupply problem and no item sinks. Schematics are there to remove some of the currency in circulation from all the oversights to date - it does that. It's not my preferred solution but I can't say it doesnt do what it's there to do.

 

I'm not going to slam NQ for the basics that they have delivered, but I will criticize implementation. I'm digressing from this convo, it's run its course.

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36 minutes ago, Treelover69 said:

Transparent =/= consulting players in a round table meeting. It means being clear about direction which happens in their "Look Ahead" series. Like the level of detail or not, it's about as transparent as things need to be.

 

As far as community consultation is concerned, that's what this is for:

https://upvote.dualuniverse.game/?order=new&filter=all&tag=#controls

 

 

Completely agree with you. NQ are developing a type of game that has never been done before. Obviously it comes with a ton of risks and unknowns. While better communication and faster development would be great, it's quite normal to face delays or change certain features. 

 

Let's hope NQ will have enough money and motivation for the next few years to push the game forward.

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TLDR at the bottom...

I have supported in excess of $20,000 worth of kickstarters and Indiegogos etc. over the last decade. And every one has to some extent delivered on their promises.  VR headsets, electric bikes, pocket sized computers, kitchen knives (don’t ask), retro camera lenses, ED, SC and DU included. 
 

During that time, I have managed to refund -before the grace period expired - over $3000 worth of projects, nearly all of which have still not delivered or are now defunct. 
 

I’m not claiming to be a crowdfunding Guru or anything like that, I think I have a reasonably good judgement when it comes to the reality of project definitions and their scope.

 

of all the projects, Star Citizen and DU were the two I was most on the fence about, heck I was even skeptical about ED.  Their scope and scale were more ambitious than anything else I backed and I ummed and ahhed for a long time before backing them all. 

 

Let’s have a look at their status:
 

ED released a playable game, and came out of alpha in a timely fashion. Bugs -initially- were squashed in a timely fashion and new features were released for the first two years thereafter at a fair clip. Moreover, a number exploited bugs were rapidly quashed and announcement of quashing was made just before they did so, essentially giving all the players a little bit of time to.. ahem... "test" the bugs out and report.  In one particular case, I do remember that they actually rolled back accounts that had exploited a major cash making bug.
 

but then for three years, the game has lain in slumber with unfixed bugs, and a large number of their placeholder temporary mechanics becoming permanent features and early 2012 statements by David Braben such as damage model, ship interiors, scavenging and walking about, nowhere to be seen. 
 

moreover, nearly all the community facing content disappeared for two years, as did communication from within. 
 

And despite having tens of thousands of daily players according to third party plugin API data, their forums are a bit of a bitch fest aimed at FDEV. 

 

Still, as of this year, much of the community activities and storyline suddenly rose from the dead, and communication about the future restarted in a major way and yesterday, a new DLC, Odyssey claiming to be the biggest paradigm shift and overall update in the game to date, moved into open beta and should address much of the EVA deficits.

  

Ambition: 7/10

Communication: 5/10-now 7/10
enjoyability : from 5/10 to 8/10

Delivery: 7/10 (soon to be 8?)


Star Citizen. 
 

yeah.. ok.. I know people get their knickers in a twist about this one so I’m gonna try and stay objective. Lol.
 

Suffice it to say that their saving grace is their incredible and endless communication with the players. 
 

Their intentions are made clear, they respond to the community to an extent, are delivering quarterly updates, their (fluidly shifting!!) roadmap is usually current and their rate of progress this last 12 months has finally 

reached something acceptable considering their epic and continually increasing budget. 
 

but the game is still a beautiful, beautiful bugfest . 


Ambition: 11/10

Communication: 10/10
Enjoyability: 4/10 to 6/10 (T pose mayhem, etc)

Delivery: 5/10 , soon to be 6? With first extra system and stargates finally making an appearance. 

 

We all know about DU so no need to go into detail. 
 

Ambition: 11/10

(I still don’t think there is technology capable of delivering their dream in a realistic way.)

 

Communication:  4/10 and declining rapidly. 
(it was never very good yet now it’s all but nonexistent)

Enjoyability: 2 or 3/10 PvP, 7 or 8 / 10 Creatives. 
Delivery: 4/10

most of the basic systems are in but a lot of the initial goals have evaporated.

Basically, DU is in the worst place of the three major kickstarters and is showing the most signs of a project out of control and in freefall.

 

Now here is the interesting bit about the forums:

 

the ED forums, due to FDEV’s recent activity, are fairly lively and the vitriol is directed between the PvP meta players, griefing, grinding and the rest of the PvE players. 
there is solid PvE play. 
 

the SC forums, due to CGI’s constant activity, are fairly lively and the vitriol is directed between the PvP meta players, so called griefing and the rest of the PvE players and also chatter about the various game breaking bugs. 

there are solid PvE 
 

Now we have the DU forums. 
 

the DU forums, due to NQ’s lack of activity, are mostly defunct apart from the ten or so of us who still comment.  and the vitriol is directed between the PvP meta players, griefers, exploiters, the devs, each other and basically anyone...  there are almost no solid PvE loops.  There is very little actual discussion about the game at all any more, because there is little to nothing to discuss.
 

it seems to me that vitriol is directly a result of the lack of communication from upstairs. 
 

the other two projects appear (recently at least)  to have a strong indication of direction and clarity of progression that is lacking in this project and in the idle gaps, dissatisfaction breeds.  The other two games' forums are fairly pleasant, recently, a far brighter and more positive outlook than a year or so ago.



TLDR here:

 

I do believe that DU can still be saved from oblivion if they sort out some of the ridiculous mechanics that they have foisted on the players and deliver on a few more of their promises.
First, DU needs to get its focus back and NQ need to start communicating more clearly to bring back confidence among the player base.

 

PLAYER driven markets and player owned markets must become a reality, not bot driven: bots running markets, bots selling schematics, bots buying ores... These are absoloutely bullshit and need to go.

 

LAG FREE, Bug free, dynamic and exciting PvP. This is an absolute MUST if the game is to survive. (hell, I'm not a PvPer but this is f'ckn obvious since it was sold front and centre before the "Balpha" rolled out.)

Performance: The game is really not optimised currently and with graphics cards being $2000+ for anything above toy level,  the game is going to have to get its shit together, especially around markets.
 

I’d hate this to be the first failed project among all of my crowdfunding....

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- I look at the 0.24 changelog and what's new since 0.23 from autumn.
- Then I realise that this company has 2 studios
- Again I then look at the picture I posted: 

 

And then I ask if this is a early April Fool's joke.

But we've already had the discussion and explanations, I'll save the words here.

 

It is a pity for the transparency of the communication that we find things where one wonders who introduced these ideas. 

I have no idea who the game designer is at NovaQuark now, because it's so opaque by now and I don't have a name. With other mmorpg you know who is working on what.

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4 hours ago, Treelover69 said:

This isn't true, the Dec 23 Look Ahead again covered what could be expected this year. How that aligns with the road map is another story (specifically it doesn't), which goes back to the first quote.

 

And by saying that you contradict yourself as what was said in that video is _exactly" the internal happy little bubble situation I referred to since the idea you can do everything you say AND deliver a release ready product a year later is at least unrealistic.

 

4 hours ago, Treelover69 said:

Except this is again - objectively true. Elite dangerous only just released odyssey for Alpha after releasing in 2014. World of warcraft is still revamping and introducing systems, and in the last few years completely redid the games graphics - and it's ancient. "MMO development is never finished" is a true statement

Not really, NQ puts a label "beta" on what effectively is an early alpha stage game, they will stick a "release" label on what might just qualify as beta. These are industry standard definitions. The ED:Odyssey is a DLC, not an expansion, it is a paid for addition to the existing game which can be played without it, you can also argue ED is not actually an MMO. Expansions for WoW or EVE are a thing sure.. and NQ will continue to develop the game sure, in fact we know they will still add gameplay elements after "release". It would be fair though to expect the core game to be ready, stable, completed and polished at release, something I do not expect will happen at all.

 

In the end this wil always be a tug of war between opinions sure and that's fine. If you want to believe it's al good and release wil be the game we all hope for then sure. But IMO that is an extremely unrealistic outlook IMO.

 

In the end I can't say I have been far off from the objective truth and in general have not had my position proven wrong yet.. I'd love to see NQ do that but do not think they will.

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29 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

NQ puts a label "beta" on what effectively is an early alpha stage game, they will stick a "release" label on what might just qualify as beta. These are industry standard definitions. The ED:Odyssey is a DLC, not an expansion, it is a paid for addition to the existing game which can be played without it, you can also argue ED is not actually an MMO.

 

In the end I can't say I have been far off from the objective truth and in general have not had my position proven wrong yet.. I'd love to see NQ do that but do not think they will.

I was so miffed about NQ having the gall to label this mess a beta, that a new phrase literally popped into my head.... So I call this a "balpha..." basically an alpha masquerading as a beta.

Yep. Odyssey is a DLC and is looking fairly interesting.... It is also clearly in beta since it has all the basics already programmed... but they are rolling out those basics feature by feature to make sure the players are forced to play each aspect with a new zero day commander rather than leapfrogging to endgame on day one....
Back in the day, ED had one of the smoothest alpha to beta transitions I have ever experienced. Professionally documented, gradual, smooth and most importantly tested thoroughly before the next step.
It was sooo much fun playing the alpha and watching the features appear one by one and then testing them so hard that FDEV were releasing almost daily patches at one point. THAT is how an alpha needs to be run. Once the patches slowed, the game eased into closed (backers only) beta and functions were stabilised.
They had a brief backer only "gamma" release and then boom. the game was out... 
But patches remained weekly to monthly for some time as the biggest bugs were squashed.

For me, DU alpha was progressing fairly smoothly back in 2018... New elements and voxels, new functions such as the nanopack... recipes complexified... industrialisation became really fun, if a bit gamey by factorio/satisfactory standards... 

But that's where the alpha faltered, IMO. as 2019 came to an end, the whole feeling changed to one of stagnation but  for me, the key point was that IMPROVEMENTS in the game all but disappeared.
Everything started sidegrading... framerates plateaued, no new elements were introduced, not even cosmetic items... game systems were tweaked and tweaked and tweaked to within an inch of their lives... sometimes beyond... for every change seemed to bring more criticism than acclaim and bugs grew in number rather than being squashed.

Worse, the new mechanics and elemenets that were  introduced were minimum viable product level. It was clear that all efforts had been spared and that the solutions to issues were handled with all the finesse of a highschool trial-week intern.

This to me shouts of a project out of control... like SC back in 2017 when they were going through studio partnerships like Elizabeth Taylor went through husbands and were constantly just throwing out code they had written literally a year before and not actually advancing anything at all other than overpriced spaceships...

SC mananged to turn itself around and tighten the reigns and is now a project with far less pie in the sky speculation from Chris Roberts who has been told to put a sock in it and stop offering the moon...  and is now filled with far more concrete info and actual data...  in contrast JC's laughable comments on the direction and state of DU come across as almost delusional rather than visionary given the current status... 

 

Still, DU needs to achieve this turnaround with a much tighter budget and super high infrastructure costs per player due to their massive bandwidth requirements compared to SC and ED.

 

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34 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

Yep. Odyssey is a DLC and is looking fairly interesting.... It is also clearly in beta since it has all the basics already programmed... but they are rolling out those basics feature by feature to make sure the players are forced to play each aspect with a new zero day commander rather than leapfrogging to endgame on day one....
Back in the day, ED had one of the smoothest alpha to beta transitions I have ever experienced. Professionally documented, gradual, smooth and most importantly tested thoroughly before the next step.
It was sooo much fun playing the alpha and watching the features appear one by one and then testing them so hard that FDEV were releasing almost daily patches at one point. THAT is how an alpha needs to be run. Once the patches slowed, the game eased into closed (backers only) beta and functions were stabilised

 

You can argue whether it is OK for them to charge extra for this alpha process but I find the way Frontier is rolling out the DLC to be an excellent example of how to do this.

 

  • They have a clear strategy on how to roll out the different components of the DLC and explain this very well "in their mini roadmap"
  • Because they set clear expectations in this, you barely heard anyone streaming the game bring up components that were not present, everyone pretty much followed the given gameplay path as it was clear why the limitations were in place.
  • There are clear performance and balance issues in this initial release but because the path forward is clear AND the intent and context of the action is clear it is something that you hear mentioned but not the main focus.
  • Frontier sets correct expectations
  • Frontier was _very_ quick to communicate an issue with some missions through Twitter with outlook of an hotfix for this coming.

 

NQ could really learn a few things here, starting with setting clear and realistic expectations and showing you have an actual plan on how to get to your goal, which really is the purpose of a roadmap more than listing all the "kewl" stuff that is coming. And no, you can't really say "but NQ is new to this". They are not really and part of why they opened up offices in CA is exactly to get this kind of experience into the company.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 And no, you can't really say "but NQ is new to this". 

It was totaly BS excuse from begining, considering they bragged on KS: Our team is an experienced team of industry veterans from Sony, Apple, Ubisoft and several other French game companies. 

 

So, as we say here in my country: either take off your cross or put on underwear.

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5 hours ago, blazemonger said:

And by saying that you contradict yourself as what was said in that video is _exactly" the internal happy little bubble situation I referred to since the idea you can do everything you say AND deliver a release ready product a year later is at least unrealistic.

I don't understand why you're saying me agreeing with you is a contradiction, followed by just regurgitating what we've already agreed on, is it for the sake of getting the last say? Not really sure here.

5 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Not really, NQ puts a label "beta" on what effectively is an early alpha stage game, they will stick a "release" label on what might just qualify as beta. These are industry standard definitions.

This has little/nothing to do with the quote "MMO development is never finished". This has to do with how they've labelled the game (alpha vs beta which varies drastically across the industry) and are behind on the roadmap, not the quote.

 

6 hours ago, blazemonger said:

In the end this wil always be a tug of war between opinions sure and that's fine. If you want to believe it's al good and release wil be the game we all hope for then sure. But IMO that is an extremely unrealistic outlook IMO.

You're not reading, suggesting I think things I've explicitly said I'm not and are strawmanning. There's no point in having a conversation like that, so I'm done, thanks for the convo.

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On 3/29/2021 at 11:54 PM, XKentX said:


Person A joins corp C where person B is super-legate/CEO.

 

After 2 months person A makes corp K and transfers assets to it.

 

Person A claims it's belongs to newly found corp K as the assets were acquired during his participation and under his leadership.

Person B claims it is a corp theft.

 

Have fun SB GMs figuring this out.

 

There is reason why sandbox is a sandbox and why GMs should not intervene if no exploits are used. This is only 1 simple example. Let me not get started on how they gonna enforce their "Luring people to pvp space is not allowed". This is just bs. 

 

P.S:

Last article in your blog:

https://mmopress.wixsite.com/newmeroviachronicle/post/story-time-orion-and-large-prey

explains how AC docked and dragged another ship to space(against his will) and destroyed it:

While doing so, one of the AC ships slid in close the the SC Orion causing it to dock with the larger ship and took itself and the now docked SC Orion back into the combat zone. The weapons of the three L AC warships blazed to life and the SC Orion erupted into fire.

This is described as exploit and bannable offence:

Parenting Ships - Dragged to PVP Space

https://support.dualthegame.com/hc/en-us/articles/360016890940-Clarification-Regarding-Bug-Exploits-and-Griefing

So AC should get sanctioned as they did exactly this as you explained. You say rules in sandbox is a good thing right ?

 

Let me guess, again nobody was banned.  the problem here is not the rules but the way they use them. some people are more then others in NQ eyes and this is a result.

 

You cannot have rules only applying to some, anyone should know that

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