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PVP IN SPACE! NQ READ


BlackFalcon375

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4 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

Its funny, for all the bitching you see on the forums in EvE, what you dont see is people questioning why the good ore and sites is in nullsec, or why you need null sov to build titans/supers.  Like everyone agrees that, that is good.  Imagine if in eve, you could have a Rorq in highsec, and hit a "warp button" that transported you to Delve, and were able to mine it without any risk, then "warp back to jita" to sell it.  Its the fucking dumbest concept, yet thats exactly what happens in DU.

Yep.

There are like Empires with hundreds of thousands of players that are currently fighting over delve to have that precious farming spot and news sites covering every week fights etc. What we have in DU ? ATOM trying to create content and have to helplessly watch at people warping back and forth. "Fleet fights" are like 5 vs 5 max lol. Another stupid idea like "madis battleground" in that other thread where people just want "to battle" button at the top of the screen etc. Ha, and of course some stupid "PVP EVENT" like another starwars thingy in "emergent gameplay" game.

 

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In my vision, the global pvp problem curently is slow-performance PvP mechanic. 

 

If you really want to PvP you will find it in game. BUT! Current PvP mechanic doesn't allow to produce damage that was intended to produce by attacker ship design. The ship has 2 gunner seats full with Cannons, yes, they fire... But you will see 90% of misses! Why? Because the target ship can't calculate damage in time. Just open your internet traffic statistics and you will see pikes up to 100 megabits of internet traffic, and this is for target' ship, not attacker. But for normal PvP you need multiple attacker ships, not single one, and what to do if the game/target can't even calculate/download damage from single ship?

 

I think this is the main reason why NQ doesn't do further development of PvP. The game just lacks good enough PvP damage calculation right now.

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1 hour ago, XKentX said:

They are a problem because there is only 1 game loop: mine, refine, produce, sell/use.

 

[...]

 

If we have NPC missions that give quanta as reward (and remove all the bot buy orders) the problem will be fixed.

 

The game loop "mine, refine, produce, sell/use" wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that "mine, sell" is more profitable due to overpriced bot buy orders for ores. Additional over- or underpriced bot orders don't fix that problem.

 

1 hour ago, XKentX said:

Transport 10kt of stuff from Alioth to Madis. Reward = 2mil (low risk low reward).

Transport 10kt of stuff from Alioth to Locobus. Reward = 10mil (high risk high reward).

None of these markets are in pvp zone. The surface of planets are safe zones with the possibility for a local economy.

The OP is asking for something completely different. The very idea of a market in pvp zone makes no sense.

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4 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

The game loop "mine, refine, produce, sell/use" wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that "mine, sell" is more profitable due to overpriced bot buy orders for ores. Additional over- or underpriced bot orders don't fix that problem.

No, the fact that this is the only viable gameplay loop is absolutely a problem.

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7 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

The game loop "mine, refine, produce, sell/use" wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that "mine, sell" is more profitable due to overpriced bot buy orders for ores. Additional over- or underpriced bot orders don't fix that problem.

 

None of these markets are in pvp zone. The surface of planets are safe zones with the possibility for a local economy.

The OP is asking for something completely different. The very idea of a market in pvp zone makes no sense.

they should remove ALL markets outside alioth/sanc and give us players markets like they teased for years now.  That way markets in pvp zones absolutely make sense.  If i live on lacobus, and I can come to your city/market to buy something, ill gladly pay more than alioth so i dont have to go there. 

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10 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

they should remove ALL markets outside alioth/sanc and give us players markets like they teased for years now.  That way markets in pvp zones absolutely make sense.  If i live on lacobus, and I can come to your city/market to buy something, ill gladly pay more than alioth so i dont have to go there. 

If you live on Lacobus, than what does you stop from coming to Lacobus market? If someone produced any item on Lacobus, what does stop him from making the sell order on any Lacobus market? How will player markets help here? You have Aphelia's markets on planet, why not to use them?

 

Introducing (replacing, as you suggest) player markets will introduce massive decentralization... I am not sure if it will be good move for now from Novaquark. Maybe later, but not now.

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9 minutes ago, Musclethorpe said:

No, the fact that this is the only viable gameplay loop is absolutely a problem.

For the game to be a sandbox mmorpg, the character variety or the gameplay itself is too restrictive.

When I look at other sandbox mmorpg, the possibilities are much more varied.

 

Until we have reached a state that it can develop itself in a healthy way, there will still be a very long time to go.

Until then you will only have rp-pvp that has no meaning and in the end you will be desperately begging NQ to do something for pvp, as others on the forum have already done.

 

I remember back to alpha time. Some people said they found space boring and there is no content up there. Many had the desire to bridge long flight times with opportunities.

In the end, it was decided that everything would now be skipped with warp cells. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sawafa said:

If you live on Lacobus, than what does you stop from coming to Lacobus market? If someone produced any item on Lacobus, what does stop him from making the sell order on any Lacobus market? How will player markets help here? You have Aphelia's markets on planet, why not to use them?

 

Introducing (replacing, as you suggest) player markets will introduce massive decentralization... I am not sure if it will be good move for now from Novaquark. Maybe later, but not now.

because i thought this was a civilization building game.  Arent we suppose to want players to decide things. have markets come, go, power struggles over them.  Build cities with citizens.  No i guess we got bot markets, and bot items, and bot bots and bot missions.  

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On the topic of camping markets, of course if they’re just a 1 tile safezone. Considering they should be abolished, and markets become player made owned and run, legitimate markets would often find themselves nested in larger player made safe zones.

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29 minutes ago, SpiceRub said:

On the topic of camping markets, of course if they’re just a 1 tile safezone. Considering they should be abolished, and markets become player made owned and run, legitimate markets would often find themselves nested in larger player made safe zones.

You mean a city with a function and a purpose?  One that is dynamic and player driven? One that can also change over time, or be conquered? Or successfully managed and defended?  

 

OYY4VcP.gif

 

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26 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

You mean a city with a function and a purpose?  One that is dynamic and player driven? One that can also change over time, or be

Cease this heresy! No good ideas are allowed.

 

56 minutes ago, SpiceRub said:

On the topic of camping markets, of course if they’re just a 1 tile safezone. Considering they should be abolished, and markets become player made owned and run, legitimate markets would often find themselves nested in larger player made safe zones.

Too much.... Stop! This is not an mmo! This is a single player mining sim in a single shard!

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Well.. If I use my tinfoil hat...

 

1) NQ won't remove safezones because of carebears.  And I don't mean builders or industry players or haulers... I mean carebears. It's a state of mind.

 

 

2) NQ won't remove safezones because they can't. We have never seen pvp on planets. Not in any video ever. Why is that? Considering they don't even have raycasting obstruction, pvp would be asanine on planets. I reiterate. We have not ever seen even a dev screenshot of atmo pvp. At all. Space pvp Is a shitfest. Because it was cobbled together half hazardly to tick the roadmap pvp box. It's not even designed for atmo pvp. It's an engineering abomination at its current state. The reason we have such large no pvp zones around planets is likely to do with performance reasons first. The reason every planet is a safezone is because the current pvp system only sorta kinda works in open space. Safezones are a way to restrict the lackluster unperformant  pvp mechanics to only open space.

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1 minute ago, IvanGrozniy said:

Well.. If I use my tinfoil hat...

 

1) NQ won't remove safezones because of carebears.  And I don't mean builders or industry players or haulers... I mean carebears. It's a state of mind.

 

 

2) NQ won't remove safezones because they can't. We have never seen pvp on planets. Not in any video ever. Why is that? Considering they don't even have raycasting obstruction, pvp would be asanine on planets. I reiterate. We have not ever seen even a dev screenshot of atmo pvp. At all. Space pvp Is a shitfest. Because it was cobbled together half hazardly to tick the roadmap pvp box. It's not even designed for atmo pvp. It's an engineering abomination at its current state. The reason we have such large no pvp zones around planets is likely to do with performance reasons first. The reason every planet is a safezone is because the current pvp system only sorta kinda works in open space. Safezones are a way to restrict the lackluster unperformant  pvp mechanics to only open space.

Yep, pvp just doesn't work, and its forced their hand. Compared to missions and tree addons, Territory Warfare and space pvp overhaul seems like a monumental task.

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Just came here to have a wee chckle at Johnny Tazer stating ‘carebears are toxic as fuck’ while apparently keeping straight face. 
 

Glad to have you back; I missed your colourful prose.

 

Well, actually not just to chuckle…

 

NQ were wrong to advertise PvP this early on. Basically misadvertising their game as some kind of massive shoot and  gankfest ala EVE when they can barely reach 2x2 PvP (or support 100 now static, abandoned constructs sitting completely still for months) without lag. 

Pretty much the definition of bait and switch. 

 

I am not a pvper but was very annoyed to hear that the safe zone was extended beyond Sanctuary, making Sanctuary absolutely redundant. 
 

what a load of bollocks. 
 

however, we already know that NQ are supposedly going to build new systems or new destinations within this system that are not in the safe zone, yet people are crying about the safe zone seemingly encompassing the whole of space. 
 

banging the same drum, post after post won’t really help. Take a chill pill. NQ aren’t listening. Never have done, probably never will. 
 

all we can do is wait and hope that NQ can create some meaningful content out in “nullsec” 

 

which they’ve says d they are going to do…

 

… in their own sweet, sweet time, apparently. 

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Have you noticed that the game is in development? - optimistically called beta, but we all know it's really still alpha (i.e. not yet feature complete).

 

Missions in unsafe space are coming.

Asteroids (other than the belt around Thades) are coming - probably including if not exclusively in unsafe space.

Combat on planets is coming.

 

I'm not 100% sure NQ won't abandon the game, but assuming they keep developing it, everything you want is on their list.

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7 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Why should T5 be obtainable at markets in pvp zones only? That makes no sense.

What? Srsly? Have you ever studied dynamics? Or even just Physics? 
 

the laws of thermodynamics also pretty much control games. 
 

make everything homogenous and random with no differences anywhere and you have zero impetus to move or evolve… entropy is maxed out and there is nothing left to be done. 

 

like a bowl of lukewarm water in a room of the same temperature. 
 

nothing changes. Nothing moves. 
 

Compare that to a room with a fire in one corner. The heat from the fire warms the air which flows around the room, warming everything it touches. 
 

the air moves, there’s ‘life’. 
 

the fire itself is dangerous but entirely necessary for the whole system to come alive. 
 

that is the T5 in nullsec. 
 

imo only T1 and mayyybeeee…. A tinsywinsy bit of T2 should be in the safe zone.

 

the rest should be in places where real risk exists.

 

as it is now, literally all they do to make T3+ hard to get is to put it deeper and most importantly slooooooooow the mining sphere and sloooooow the refining for god only knows what reason. 
 

 

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4 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

What about economics? T5 will available wherever there are buyers... including in the SZ.

The  flow of T5 ore to the safe zones is the logistics underpinning the economics. Getting to it and getting it out of the ground/asteroid and getting it back there should be the risk and require expense, making it valuable. 
 

players will camp over the T5  hotspots, presumably, making the larger orgs the only ones with access. 
 

orgs will merge and fight and eventually end up as clans and then even members of proto nations. 
 

who knows. That’s all a loooooong way in the future at the current rate of development. 

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If you return to the topic of my post. Then I suggested making a PVP mission from the NPC. I took the goods at point A and delivered it to B (which is located in the pvp space), the place of delivery of the mission, maybe any structure, not necessarily a market! I just gave an example of a market, because now, there is a mechanic of bots, where you hand over the goods and get money. That's basically it. just implement pvp missions in space for a good reward. and remove all bots for buying the game.

 

this would force the players to take a mission for example on a group of players and organize themselves before a dangerous mission and fly together to do it. Then share the loot through the wallet between the mission participants.

 

and it would really be a point of interest for pvp corporations. Blockades there and holding the positions of the bases. While we wait for the territory warfire and asteroids ...

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14 hours ago, Musclethorpe said:

No, the fact that this is the only viable gameplay loop is absolutely a problem.

What I am trying to say is that it is currently even worse. "mine, refine, produce, sell/use" has been the only working gameplay loop before 0.23. Now it is reduced to "mine, sell".

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7 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

What? Srsly? Have you ever studied dynamics? Or even just Physics? 
 

the laws of thermodynamics also pretty much control games. 
 

make everything homogenous and random with no differences anywhere and you have zero impetus to move or evolve… entropy is maxed out and there is nothing left to be done. 

 

like a bowl of lukewarm water in a room of the same temperature. 
 

nothing changes. Nothing moves. 
 

Compare that to a room with a fire in one corner. The heat from the fire warms the air which flows around the room, warming everything it touches. 
 

the air moves, there’s ‘life’. 
 

the fire itself is dangerous but entirely necessary for the whole system to come alive. 
 

that is the T5 in nullsec. 
 

imo only T1 and mayyybeeee…. A tinsywinsy bit of T2 should be in the safe zone.

 

the rest should be in places where real risk exists.

 

as it is now, literally all they do to make T3+ hard to get is to put it deeper and most importantly slooooooooow the mining sphere and sloooooow the refining for god only knows what reason.

I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. Does that even refer to my question?

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