PVP IN SPACE! NQ READ

[BlackFalcon375]

Why developers ignore space is not clear. people want more gameplay in space and not just fly and warp from A to B.

below I will write how it seems to me that you can implement simply and quickly in space...

 

NQ, maybe you already make some goals in the pvp zone for pvp players. if you can't make interesting missions in pvp or asteroids, then you can at least try to do this: you have a system of markets on the planets in PVP, but since they are useless and there is no atmo pvp on the planets, and it is not realistic to make a siege of the planet with the presence of safe zones around these planets. you can not be stupid and make markets in pvp zones in space, and give out NPC missions there for the delivery of cargo with a good profit from the sale of goods . and allow there full pvp, without safe zones. markets cannot be destroyed. I think this will create the first precindent in pvp zones in the battles for the trade route that is profitable in the money . think with your head! you have it... and just do something that will unite the pvp players and corporations

 

such dangerous trade routes in pvp would be enough for us to expect your cool pvp gameplay in the atmosphere or asteroids.

[Aaron Cain]

If all PVP organizations want PvP, why not just kill each other?

 

traders and miners and industrialists will not go those routes, and since all gameplay and economy and industry is bjorged since 0.23 please do not expect anyone to accidentally end up in PvP space.

 

In short, All the people who want PvP and call for it, start with yourself and go into PvP zone to fight with eachother and dont expect any gains from PvP coming year. Unless the whole economy, mining and industry is changed including the schematics and player driven markets, asteroid mining.

[Maxim Kammerer]

37 minutes ago, BlackFalcon375 said:

you can not be stupid and make markets in pvp zones in space, and give out NPC missions there for the delivery of cargo with a good profit from the sale of goods . and allow there full pvp, without safe zones. markets cannot be destroyed. I think this will create the first precindent in pvp zones in the battles for the trade route that is profitable in the money .

How are such trade routes going to be profitable? There can't be industry in pvp zones and even mining would be suicide without a fleet of escort ships. Thus, no player would be stupid enough to sell at low prices or to buy at high prices in such places. In order to make you idea working, there would need to be market bots buying and selling at fancy prices. Such bots already are a major problem for the economy. It doesn't sound like a good idea to ask for even more of them.

[BlackFalcon375]

28 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

How are such trade routes going to be profitable? There can't be industry in pvp zones and even mining would be suicide without a fleet of escort ships. Thus, no player would be stupid enough to sell at low prices or to buy at high prices in such places. In order to make you idea working, there would need to be market bots buying and selling at fancy prices. Such bots already are a major problem for the economy. It doesn't sound like a good idea to ask for even more of them

This is a PVP zone! Sit in your PVE zone and trade yourself there and do not poke around in pvp if you do not have a fleet and security. Pvp always means risks and high profits! Now you warp pvp to all planets without punishment and sell ore to NPC bots and make huge profits. Why should it be so easy! shouldn't! therefore, such markets should be in areas where you can actually be killed! Understand that you will not have an easy profit in pvp space! And there is no need to say here that no one will fly there. Not all players are fans of building endless bases and ships on aliot! We are already seeing how pvp corporations stupidly announce some kind of mythical siege of the planets. What is funny. And it is already interesting to keep under control the markets in the pvp space and obviously already gives a profit that is not small from the control of these markets for its own corporation.

[Honvik]

I think thats what the rare gems etc they mentioned.  Yes it is quiet, yes there is no reason to fight in PVP and yes there are too many 'safe areas'.  It will change but no idea when.

 

Honvik

Magister of the Empire

[XKentX]

NQ at Kickstarter to get money from players: There will be PVP everywhere other than sanct moon

Players: Throwing money at NQ to fund the game

 

NQ at beta start: PVP will be "limited", Madis/Alioth/Thades will be safe forever, no idea what we need sanct for. In practice, you don't ever PVP as there is no reason to.

Players: Frack this

 

NQ: Hmm, why player numbers are falling, didn't they want to rebuild their Star destroyer for the 123rd time with 2 left voxels painted with the new tool now ? That's content !

[JohnnyTazer]

Just now, XKentX said:

NQ at Kickstarter to get money from players: There will be PVP everywhere other than sanct moon

Players: Throwing money at NQ to fund the game

 

NQ at beta start: PVP will be "limited", Madis/Alioth/Thades will be safe forever, no idea what we need sanct for. In practice, you don't ever PVP as there is no reason too.

Players: Fck this

 

NQ: Hmm, why player numbers are falling, didn't they want to rebuild their Star destroyer for the 123rd time with 2 left voxels painted with the new tool now ? That's content !

There is a reason EvE is still running after almost 2 decades, and Landmark was Axed before it even lasted 1 year.  People aren't going to pay a sub for literal years/decades to sit and build.  There are other games that let you do that that are a one time purchase, such as Space Engineers.  

[XKentX]

8 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

There is a reason EvE is still running after almost 2 decades, and Landmark was Axed before it even lasted 1 year.  People aren't going to pay a sub for literal years/decades to sit and build.  There are other games that let you do that that are a one time purchase, such as Space Engineers.  

Exactly.

 

The only way to have almost infinite endgame goal is to have PVP as you can never fully "win" it. You can never achieve total domination. EvE proves it. So many years and there are still tens of thousands constantly online in game (yes they show it in launcher).

 

Even people that will never actually PVP keep playing due to believing they will one day become bad ass pirates and kill everyone, they just need that marauder lvl5 to complete...

It keeps them engaged, it keeps them believing there is something to work for.

[JohnnyTazer]

NQ definitely takes the blame for this.  But Im really curious as to why they are making such horrible decisions.  The people that come into this forum that try to bash the "pvp" crowd for wanting what was originally promised definitely share some blame too, and there mentality is toxic as fuck.  For the carebears out there I can give you a break down ok so pay attention.  We were promised by kickstarter that DU would have "emergent gameplay" (cant have that unless I can effect your gameplay, positively, or negatively depending on your POV).  There was also suppose to be a heavy focus on PvP (there hasnt been, its still not here a few months from official release, and doesnt even work when u try it).  Sanc Moon was suppose to be only safe zone.  Yet you carebears come in wanting this to be "landmark 2" or whatever, but you are actively trying to be vocal against what was pitched at kickstarter. 

 

 Now for me, and other pvpers, who are well adjusted adults, you dont see us going into other games to change what they are.  Take for example, Fort Night.  Game is terrible for me and my tastes.  But you know what? Im glad it exists, and i'm glad its there for people who enjoy that and get to play a game and play with friends and have a great time.  What I dont do is go to that games forums and make posts like "wtf why cant a kill someone in a lobby, why cant I have a team of 20 and everyone else only a team of 2.   Thats essentially what the carebears are doing when they say "Why should I let you shoot my hauler!!".  GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME.  Not every game is for you,  And a lot of us are fed up, because we respect other games that want to be what they are, but when we want a FFA space pvp game (which was pitched to us in Kickstarter/Alpha) of course we are gonna rage when it shifts away from that.  And of course we gonna be pissed.  But hey, the proof is in the pudding.  Look at twtich, or any other metric and you will see how many people actually currently play the game while its a "build only safe haven".  EVERY single person that a recommended to play and try DU since last 2+ years has quit.  I've persaonlly got over 10 of my gaming friends to buy an alpha pack or to sub a beta.  Not one is left.  

[CptLoRes]

22 minutes ago, XKentX said:

NQ at Kickstarter to get money from players: There will be PVP everywhere other than sanct moon

Players: Throwing money at NQ to fund the game

 

That is your version of the truth. Mine is that the kickstarter promised a "be whatever you want" open world building game with voxels and scripting.

[JohnnyTazer]

4 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

That is your version of the truth. Mine is that the kickstarter promised a "be whatever you want" open world building game with voxels and scripting.

Ya, lets look at the reality of that.  "Be Whatever you want".  Well what if I want to be the dictator of Alioth?  Cant can I?  But what we can look at, is the multiple times it talked about Sanctuary being the only true "safe zone".  How the game is now, its made it kinda pointless to be there.  I can claim a tile on alioth/madis/Thades and no one can do anything about it, as it will remain there...

 

[CptLoRes]

[removed image to free up space]

[Maxim Kammerer]

3 hours ago, BlackFalcon375 said:

Pvp always means risks and high profits!

I asked where this profit comes from. I can't see how that works and as you didn't answer this question it seems you don't know it either.

[BlackFalcon375]

14 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

I asked where this profit comes from. I can't see how that works and as you didn't answer this question it seems you don't know it either.

Once again, these are all tasks from bots on missions. Profit from the sale of goods of any type, which bots buy on this market for a good price, is 2-3 times higher than in ordinary markets than in pve. As it is now done with ore, for example (by the developers themselves). The number of missions of this type should be limited and issued randomly in time from the NPC. everything is simple, and there is nowhere easier to come up with. You open missions, look at tasks from the NPC for pvp, you see a task for good money where you need to take cargo to the market in the pvp sector in space!

[Maxim Kammerer]

4 minutes ago, BlackFalcon375 said:

Once again, these are all tasks from bots on missions.

Once again, such bots already are a major problem for the economy. You shouldn't ask for more of them.

[BlackFalcon375]

8 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Once again, such bots already are a major problem for the economy. You shouldn't ask for more of them.

this game won't have a player-only economy, let's be honest. if not the bots, which the developers made for the purchase of ore, on which the entire quantum in the game rests. The game would have died out 100,500 times by now. But she already streams to 0 online. and on this what kind of economy can we talk about? Wake up! The economy on the players works when there are many more than 5k players and more like in EVE. And even in EVE there are NPC bots from which you can make a profit. it's funny all the projects mmo, which were without bots, stupidly died out and closed. So study the market for games with a non-NPC economy. And you will learn and discover a lot of useful things for yourself. And the developers are blind kittens, they do not look at the experience of others, they invented a fairy tale about a game without bots built on live online people and think it's cool) However, the history and experience of many other projects speaks of such a course as a failure. I hope they will expand their course and start making a real game according to the gaming canons of the MMO genre.

[Maxim Kammerer]

30 minutes ago, BlackFalcon375 said:

this game won't have a player-only economy, let's be honest.

Of course not. But with bots buying and selling at prices that make no sense it will have no economy at all. That's pretty much what you are asking for. Your suggestion only works with bots that buy at high prices and sell at low prices in pvp zones. In a realistic economy it would be the other way around because there is neither supply nor demand in pvp zones. Even you idea of invulnerable market places doesn't fit inito a game where everything works with the same mechanics.

 

I see two major reasons for the lack of pvp in DU:

 

1. there is no proper pvp mechanics and

2. artificial save zones have been implemented to compensate for 1.

 

In order to have more pvp, 1. and 2. need to be fixed (in this order). Instead you are asking for additional artifical placeholder mechanics just to have pvp for the sake of pvp. That would make it even harder to turn DU into something that fits to the original vision.

[JohnnyTazer]

1 minute ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Of course not. But with bots buying and selling at prices that make no sense it will have no economy at all. That's pretty much what you are asking for. Your suggestion only works with bots that buy at high prices and sell at low prices in pvp zones. In a realistic economy it would be the other way around because there is neither supply nor demand in pvp zones. Even you idea of invulnerable market places doesn't fit inito a game where everything works with the same mechanics.

 

I see two major reasons for the lack of pvp in DU:

 

1. there is no proper pvp mechanics and

2. artificial save zones have been implemented to compensate for 1.

 

In order to have more pvp, 1. and 2. need to be fixed (in this order). Instead you are asking for additional artifical placeholder mechanics just to have pvp for the sake of pvp. That would make it even harder to turn DU into something that fits to the original vision.

Its why so many people are clamoring for asteroids and Atmo pvp, so high tier ore becomes harder/riskier to get.  And then creates a bigger demand for it.  Thus raising the prices.   And if NQ then can also make smaller cores legit viable and meta in real pvp engagements, it can lead to more orgs "throwing their hat" into the ring, to try to accumulate those profits.  

[Aaron Cain]

There is no profit, there is only risk for either side. No reason to PvP for anyone as it is now. Too many safezones indeed and I am not one of the PvP side, Im one of the be whatever you want side. But to have civilizations, and wars between star nations there has to be PvP. Du was promoted to be like eve and minecraft and infinite, dreamers could build whatever they wanted. But thats not where we are now and that concept is ditched halfway alpha already and frankly what wories me most is not lack of pvp or lack of anything to do but grinds of mining is the infinate abundance of lag at the markets with the low numbers of players we have now. No way this will support a growth in the 10 folds or even doubling the nummers at peak times. As long as we cannot land at an overcrowded market and have No lag there is no point in releasing DU to the general public. Any groundwar will be fought with approximately 10 to 100 people max or there will be lag crashes. i have fought abyss battles in Aion with  thousands and those there was not even a trace of lag. Before we argue amongst ourselves we best look at the elephant in the room, the server cannot handle the Beta people and that needs to be fixed first. Not cleaning up shit, making the shit not count in lag and having even more shit and still not having lag.    I should be able to crash a size super stardestroyer right in your base and run out with few hundred people and there should be No lag what so ever.

[JohnnyTazer]

1 minute ago, Aaron Cain said:

There is no profit, there is only risk for either side. No reason to PvP for anyone as it is now. Too many safezones indeed and I am not one of the PvP side, Im one of the be whatever you want side. But to have civilizations, and wars between star nations there has to be PvP. Du was promoted to be like eve and minecraft and infinite, dreamers could build whatever they wanted. But thats not where we are now and that concept is ditched halfway alpha already and frankly what wories me most is not lack of pvp or lack of anything to do but grinds of mining is the infinate abundance of lag at the markets with the low numbers of players we have now. No way this will support a growth in the 10 folds or even doubling the nummers at peak times. As long as we cannot land at an overcrowded market and have No lag there is no point in releasing DU to the general public. Any groundwar will be fought with approximately 10 to 100 people max or there will be lag crashes. i have fought abyss battles in Aion with  thousands and those there was not even a trace of lag. Before we argue amongst ourselves we best look at the elephant in the room, the server cannot handle the Beta people and that needs to be fixed first. Not cleaning up shit, making the shit not count in lag and having even more shit and still not having lag.    I should be able to crash a size super stardestroyer right in your base and run out with few hundred people and there should be No lag what so ever.

Thats what worrys me too.  That subject is touched on, but perhaps not enough.  Like its been 6 years of development, and ive never been in a "working" pvp engagement other than shooting a hauler that died quickly because the person used a glass cockpit.  (even then I had many misses, but could be because of ingame reasons, sometimes not tho).   And on the non-pvp side as you said, Markets for most people are just fucking a shit show.  But like, they shouldnt be if they want "potentially millions of players".  The markets SHOULD work as they are now.  But they don't.

[Musclethorpe]

This is a foolish idea, as people would just camp outside the markets. If you want people in PvP space, what you need to do is put something out there of high value that is randomly generated, as to make camping unviable. 

 

My suggestion for starters, was to have high value salvageable shipwrecks all throughout PvP space. This gives real reason to slow-boat in those areas, plus gives PvPers an additional reason to patrol out there.

[XKentX]

1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

I asked where this profit comes from. I can't see how that works and as you didn't answer this question it seems you don't know it either.

If you can't get T5 without the risk of your ship getting blown to peaces T5 is "high profit".

 

You want high profit ? Risk venturing out to pvp space to get it not warp in, mine, warp out. Have unavoidable risk of losing something to get it.

 

This concept is called risk vs reward and it works in all successful games.

[XKentX]

2 minutes ago, Musclethorpe said:

This is a foolish idea, as people would just camp outside the markets. If you want people in PvP space, what you need to do is put something out there of high value that is randomly generated, as to make camping unviable. 

This is what we are talking about.

PVP is not just about "go there to PVP" there should be a reward. Something you can only get when you PVP. High tier ore is what in most games does it but NQ foolishly allowed every noob to buy a 1mil warp drive and be king of T5 with the only downside is that the mining circle grows slower... That's dumb.

 

[JohnnyTazer]

1 minute ago, XKentX said:

This is what we are talking about.

PVP is not just about "go there to PVP" there should be a reward. Something you can only get when you PVP. High tier ore is what in most games does it but NQ foolishly allowed every noob to buy a 1mil warp drive and be king of T5 with the only downside is that the mining circle grows slower... That's dumb.

 

Its funny, for all the bitching you see on the forums in EvE, what you dont see is people questioning why the good ore and sites is in nullsec, or why you need null sov to build titans/supers.  Like everyone agrees that, that is good.  Imagine if in eve, you could have a Rorq in highsec, and hit a "warp button" that transported you to Delve, and were able to mine it without any risk, then "warp back to jita" to sell it.  Its the fucking dumbest concept, yet thats exactly what happens in DU.

[XKentX]

1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Once again, such bots already are a major problem for the economy. You shouldn't ask for more of them.

They are a problem because there is only 1 game loop: mine, refine, produce, sell/use.

 

You can't "balance" when there is only 1 thing, you can't move anything as there is nowhere to move.

 

If we have NPC missions that give quanta as reward (and remove all the bot buy orders) the problem will be fixed. The ore price will settle wherever it should settle per player market.

 

NPC missions will inject quanta the same way other games inject quanta by you farming mobs or doing quests or whatever else PVE activity. This will not affect market that much as bot buy orders.

 

NPC haul missions can have a risk vs reward too, it's pretty simple actually:

 

Transport 10kt of stuff from Alioth to Madis. Reward = 2mil (low risk low reward).

Transport 10kt of stuff from Alioth to Locobus. Reward = 10mil (high risk high reward).

500k "colleteral". If you break the box you get like sand or something that doesn't even worth 500k.