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NQ quietly rolling out 0.24 ..


blazemonger

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22 minutes ago, Jizzlobber said:

Given how absolutely toxic you lot are, good and good riddance.

The tendency that veterans who have tried to stick with the game for a long time, either just go quiet and leave or become outspoken against NQ should tell you something...

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Nice to read people thing veterans will come back. I am not so hopefull, all veterans i speak see DU as a passing station and are already gone far far away. Trust is gone and will never return and no rock or glam can bring that back.

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25 minutes ago, Jizzlobber said:

Given how absolutely toxic you lot are, good and good riddance.  I backed this game very early on, forgot about it until after .23 dropped, and just now getting into it and you vets are CANCER.  Most toxic community I have ever seen, and as a life-long gamer, that's saying something.   I would say you lot are driving more people away than lack of features, support, or any other thing you want to whine and cry about.  Every time I come here looking for info, I want to uninstall.   First post btw, because all you vets cry and whine so much, people like me don't even want to participate ffs.

Eh....your name is JizzLobber...don't pretend you have some sort of moral high ground lol. 

 

There's a difference between being toxic and complaining about the factual state of the game.

 

We were asked for feedback, that's the point of beta. We've given that feedback...sometimes 300 times like with market clutter...sorry if it comes off as whining, but not really our fault that NQ is so slow and refuses to fix obvious issues. Give it a few months.

 

But....if the game has improved, the state of the community will improve too -- most people here really like the concept of DU even if they are "cancer". It is because they like the concept so much that they get angry about NQ's lack of progress and communication. 

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4 minutes ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

Eh....your name is JizzLobber...don't pretend you have some sort of moral high ground lol. 

 

 

Try not to get excited; it's the title to an old Faith No More song, not a hobby.  But hey, judge books by their cover, I'm sure it tells the entire story, no reason to flip through some pages.  

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2 hours ago, Jizzlobber said:

Given how absolutely toxic you lot are, good and good riddance.

Including what you claimed later on, if you are the experience long time gamer you claim you are then you should know this community is hardly toxic. There is a lot of frustration going around and frankly for good reason but if you call this toxic, you really have not been around much and frankly you do not actually understand the meaning of the term.

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15 hours ago, blazemonger said:

two new  voxel brushes which are questionable

 

Being able to Delete with a paste volume is really a pretty big deal for building.  It's really useful.

 

Deleting with the line tool is also a pretty big deal.

 

The cone shape is what it is, it's a cone.

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21 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

Being able to Delete with a paste volume is really a pretty big deal for building.  It's really useful.

 

Deleting with the line tool is also a pretty big deal.

 

The cone shape is what it is, it's a cone.

With a funky tip!

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6 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Including what you claimed later on, if you are the experience long time gamer you claim you are then you should know this community is hardly toxic. There is a lot of frustration going around and frankly for good reason but if you call this toxic, you really have not been around much and frankly you do not actually understand the meaning of the term.

Actually, if you recall, I almost didn't play the game, and it was you that convinced me to try it. And what did I say was the reason I almost didn't play ?  "That DU channel is toxic". And your reply to my was "Ignore them, they are just bitter.".

I honestly don't see the difference,  since their whole attitude is driving new players away. That TOXIC attitude, is HOW the game will fail. Remember how I asked you a simple question, and you replied with an honest answer that worked ? And if you recall, I asked that same question in the DU Discord, and what did I get back ? A lot of bad answers that were deliberate wrong answers. On top of comments that were intentionally written to drive a player away from DU.

 

If that is not toxic, I don't know what is.

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I don't know how "quiet" it is when they have a huge update patch and a forum post and dev logs and videos and a long-ass full patch list.  I mean, what, you want them to come to your house personally or go on TV and shout "THIS IS THE NEW PATCH!"  Haha I mean c'mon, it's a small incremental development patch.  How loud should it be?  It was a patch during the beta process, it wasn't ground-breaking.  What did you think they should've done?

I think it's appropriate, nothing bigger than the actual changes they gave.

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54 minutes ago, Hexonymous said:

... since their whole attitude is driving new players away.

This idea repeated almost religiously again and again with some scrapegoating fantaises of blaming "trolls" for game questionable perfomance... But it does very little sense.

 

Such critiques super internal. If potential player in doubts (after encountering word of mouth or seeing some lame NQ adverts), he most likely go Youtube or Twitch (for some streams) seriously first, to see game "reviews" and things in action. This will be majority of desicion making process for majority of people in question.

 

When they in (and payed), 99% of no-brains-issues adults (and this is very high average age game) can figure out for themeselfs if they like it or not. 

 

If someone so fragile and weak-willed can be persuaded to not play game he likes by angry forum posts or grumpy Discord discussion, seriously, he has bigger issues, then this.

 

If game is doing ok, no one can stop players joining and enjoying. And if its shit and fails, no ammount of guit-tossing between players will help. Simple as that.

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2 hours ago, Hexonymous said:

I honestly don't see the difference,  since their whole attitude is driving new players away. That TOXIC attitude, is HOW the game will fail.

Assuming for arguments sake that this forum is toxic (outspoken in a mostly mature and polite way for sure), then realistically only NQ would be in a position to turn this around.

The early pre-alpha days of this forum had a very, very different mood from what you see now. And it is NQ's actions (or lack of such) over the years that has changed the community into what it currently is. And the same thing is or has already happened on the discord channels with a newer beta crowd, that is now starting to catch up to the reality of this game and NQ as a company.

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1 hour ago, le_souriceau said:

This idea repeated almost religiously again and again with some scrapegoating fantaises of blaming "trolls" for game questionable perfomance... But it does very little sense.

 

Such critiques super internal. If potential player in doubts (after encountering word of mouth or seeing some lame NQ adverts), he most likely go Youtube or Twitch (for some streams) seriously first, to see game "reviews" and things in action. This will be majority of desicion making process for majority of people in question.

 

When they in (and payed), 99% of no-brains-issues adults (and this is very high average age game) can figure out for themeselfs if they like it or not. 

 

If someone so fragile and weak-willed can be persuaded to not play game he likes by angry forum posts or grumpy Discord discussion, seriously, he has bigger issues, then this.

 

If game is doing ok, no one can stop players joining and enjoying. And if its shit and fails, no ammount of guit-tossing between players will help. Simple as that.

Well if you all hate the game this much ? Why do you all bother to play ? That is what makes no sense here.

Move on if you don't like the game. It's as simple as that.

 

EDIT : Just to clarify, most here probably didn't read the Terms of Service. You are in EARLY ACCESS. There WILL be changes, bugs and other issues that the game developers have to change / fix. IT EVEN SAYS THIS IN THE TOS. And if you are not here to submit bugs to get the game running right, then don't bother playing. It's that simple. It's NOT released yet. So all this griping does nothing. Move on if you don't like the game. Come back when it's released. Obviously you all CLEARLY do not understand what it means to be an ALPHA / BETA tester.

HOWEVER, if you can be constructive, that is different. Tell the developers what the problems are by submitting a ticket. Spam them with if needed... eventually they will reply. I didn't get a reply for any of my tickets, until just couple days ago. But they DID read it and they are sorting it. How do I know ? It was the way they replied is how I know. As a developer myself, I see and understand what they are trying to do. And that doesn't includes the hundreds if not thousands of bug reports that DO get submitted.

Bottom line, the Devs are not going to sit and read these comments on every forum post. They don't have that kind of time. So YOU MUST submit tickets if you are unhappy. Explain to them why you are unhappy in a ticket.

 

And if you don't want to submit a ticket, telling them your issues in a calm manner, THEN you obviously are just a hater. Move on with your life.

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I am impressed with how surprised people are with the current state of the game. So many of the basic online world design laws were broken here, rules known for years, that all this has only been expected. Including the (IMO justified) community reaction of the vets. Just read the knowledge gathered here by experienced mmo designers: https://www.raphkoster.com/games/laws-of-online-world-design/the-laws-of-online-world-design/.

 

This is exactly the rule explaninig the community reaction:

Mike Sellers’ Hypothesis
“The more persistence a game tries to have; the longer it is set up to last; the greater number (and broader variety) of people it tries to attract; and in general the more immersive a game/world it set out to be–then the more breadth and depth of human experience it needs to support to be successful for more than say, 12-24 months. If you try to create a deeply immersive, broadly appealing, long-lasting world that does not adequately provide for human tendencies such as violence, acquisition, justice, family, community, exploration, etc (and I would contend we are nowhere close to doing this), you will see two results: first, individuals in the population will begin to display a wide range of fairly predictable socially pathological behaviors (including general malaise, complaining, excessive bullying and/or PKing, harassment, territoriality, inappropriate aggression, and open rebellion against those who run the game); and second, people will eventually vote with their feet–but only after having passionately cast ‘a pox on both your houses.’ In essence, if you set people up for an experience they deeply crave (and mostly cannot find in real life) and then don’t deliver, they will become like spurned lovers–some become sullen and aggressive or neurotic, and eventually almost all leave.

 

It's almost not even worth the time to dig deeper here in more profound mistakes like the strong focus on "player socialization" and trying tho "nudge" people to work together without creating the right framework and conditions, since these subjects were also analyzed and the consequences for any pvp mmo are known for years, see here https://www.raphkoster.com/games/snippets/a-uo-postmortem-of-sorts/ and here https://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/11/the-eve-upset/ (that last one is especially interesting in the light of the recent robbery of the Empire).

 

Basically, with the strong focus on big orgs and actively punishing small orgs and solos, this is a one way ticket to the failure from a pvp perspective and no bug fixing or nicer plants will change this. On the contrary, you shoud try to prevent big orgs, if you want your game to stay fun for longer. 

 

Here is a citation from the last source in this regard from a designer perspective:

"...Because of the external pressures of sheer survival, you tend to try to join a clan of a reasonable size, and then the clan gets drawn into alliances of a certain size, and so on. There is safety, and strength, in numbers, and the game system is essentially zero-sum for any given conflict. And given the way in which time equals power in EVE, there is a natural tendency towards growth, solidification, and continued existence.

What you end up with is an ecosystem with a classic power law distribution of social group sizes, a scale-free network which is extremely hard to destroy.

This isn’t the first time we have seen this phenomenon in competitive virtual worlds. Famously in Shadowbane, single guilds would tend to come to own entire servers, because the game system there was also zero sum. The result led to boredom, because in a game premised on conflict, the notion of a single eternal empire is dull.

Scale-free networks are notoriously hard to kill. In fact, mathematically, if you start randomly removing connections in the network, you have to remove a ridiculous percentage of the total to make it cease to exist as an entity. This is how guild social structures can survive for years..."

 

Here is another citation, randomly picked from the above mentioned sources, regarding how to let communities emerge, without forcing them directly.

"... Related to the last one–what I now know more about regarding how the Tragedy of the Commons and the Prisoner’s Dilemma are reflected in the lack of communal action, has just reinforced my thoughts on the importance of the Other and so on. Simply put, I think that the things that drive community are: shared interest to get everyone in the same place; limited resources that you need to cooperate over so everyone gets enough; and an enemy you have to fight to keep out (and often, I think that I have served the role of said enemy in this newsgroup). Yes, communities form without the enemy, but they seem to fragment into cliques and manufacture an enemy within themselves (again, like this ng many times!). Shared interest by itself doesn’t really drive community. It drives acquaintanceships. And acquaintanceships are easy to come by, there’s no need to make a whole honkin’ game for them...."

 

Yes, there are ways to support community (and thus civilization) building, but not by repelling the small groups away. That is, if the game should even do something about it, since this will happen on itself, given an interesting game. Further reading for those interestred: https://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/09/forcing-interaction/

 

o7

 

 

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1 minute ago, enjeyy said:

-SNIP-
 

Basically, with the strong focus on big orgs and actively punishing small orgs and solos, this is a one way ticket to the failure from a pvp perspective and no bug fixing or nicer plants will change this. On the contrary, you shoud try to prevent big orgs, if you want your game to stay fun for longer. 


-SNIP-

I would curious to see how this would turn out if they did put a limit on org count. You make a good point here.

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22 hours ago, Hexonymous said:

Remember, it's about money in the end. If old players have already paid, but not enough of them are sticking around, and are getting refunds, then that money is taken away from NQ. And I have seen many say they got refunded. So NQ needs money. To do that, they need paying customers. New players is how they do that.

 

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37 minutes ago, enjeyy said:

@Hexonymous This argument with the beta is probably not the most reasonable one... since I can't say it better, I suggest you read this here: https://massivelyop.com/2020/12/31/vague-patch-notes-dont-be-the-mmo-beta-defense-squad/

I'm in agreement with you on this point.

I would never have called DU a "BETA ready game". In my experience, DU should still be considered in an ALPHA state.

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4 hours ago, Hexonymous said:

Actually, if you recall, I almost didn't play the game, and it was you that convinced me to try it. And what did I say was the reason I almost didn't play ?  "That DU channel is toxic". And your reply to my was "Ignore them, they are just bitter.".

 

This is true sure.. And it may come as a surprise to some that I actually talked about the game in a way that make someone decided to give it a(nother) go to find they liked it. For many I am one of the "toxic ones".. which kind of proves my point.

 

I get what you are saying but I honestly think that it's much more frustration with NQ than toxicity about the game and yes, some wil translate that to actively pushing (new) players away which is a shame. In the mean time I can have very good and fun conversations with some of the "more toxic ones" in private and given the chance I really believe that a meet up would result in a heavy distribution of drinks, stories, banter and fun in general. 

 

There's a few around here and on Discord that I'd say are at least edging towards just being trolls but mostly.. it's wanting to see the game do well and the frustration from seeing NQ not handling the game in a way that enables that.

 

 

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I get what you mean about discord, i dont even go there unless i need NQ help as that is the only way to get it within 2 months. But frustration runs big here, some people invested only 250 euros but there are those that sent over thousands with a promise to deliver a very specific kind of game with relative clear features in helicopter view. Now what happens if you invest literally hundreds of dolars/euros and the person who got it just ignores you completely although they promised you would be consulted and to be the most transparent game out there, to be a combo of Eve and minecraft, to be able to build on dyson sphere scales and much more. Yep, you get frustrated and even more if your first 20 times you ask for delivery on a promise is utterly ignored.

 

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3 hours ago, Hexonymous said:

Well if you all hate the game this much ? Why do you all bother to play ? That is what makes no sense here.

Move on if you don't like the game. It's as simple as that.

 

EDIT : Just to clarify, most here probably didn't read the Terms of Service. You are in EARLY ACCESS.

what's amusing is that this exact conversation has been had several times in this forum already...

 

we know it's early access...but we aren't just judging NQ on the last 6 months, but the last 6 years.

 

As a developer, you should understand that six years of alpha on a project is a long time (even for game dev) -- especially when they didn't build their own engine and didn't stand their own servers. Hell they didn't even pick a robust engine with industry-standard adoption, they picked Unigen2. 

 

As a dev, i'm sure you can imagine what a six-year-old codebase stuck in alpha might look like, especially considering that NQ's leadership has never worked in game development before or led a tech company of this size. I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it is to build up a stable core when major features aren't even designed yet. They still don't have a solid design around major concepts like PvP. 

 

to be honest.....if i were a new player coming in after playing DU for a small amount of time, I'd probably think people here are super negative, but it's because we've seen things, yo. 

 

i get your point, but give it a few months before insisting we're irrationally toxic or trolls. we actually know a lot about the development of this game, not just being pessimistic for its own sake. 

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