[Guide] Protect yourself from Hauling (Courier) Mission System scams.

[Elitez]

I am not saying this is perfect or that you will be covered 100% but i will try to add value when you will Create A New Mission, especially Hauling Mission if things will happen and you will lose your cargo and mission lost. For the sake of the situation lets put some tiers in the talk. T1-T5 cargo will be issued to make it simple. I am not telling you exactly what to do i am telling you what i will do if/when i will want to move stuff. Feel free to add value to this thread when you want. Collateral is great but its only great when you know how to use it, otherwise you lose more than you gain.

Tier/Collateral info:

* Tier 1 items. Tier 1 items can be T1 Ore, Pure Ore or Basic Components, Basic Elements, Basic Elements, etc.

* Tier 2 items Tier 2 ore, elements, components, etc.
* Tier 3 ore, advanced stuff, etc.
* Tier 4 ore, gold, rare elements, components, etc.
* Tier 5 ore, exotic stuff, etc.

Here is the trick. Each tier has a different collateral value. Since Tier 1 items are overall present in game and not hard to get you will want to add some margin % value compared with market price if Cargo is lost. Always, always assume cargo will be lost especially Early Days when people will try to do scams more than ever. System is new. Some things might not work out. The more we learn, the faster we adapt.

For Tier 1 - Cargo Value - Market Price 100 mil i would add 10-25% value. So if Cargo is 100 mils, up to 130 mils would be good. If they lose the cargo, they will pay.
For tier 2 - Cargo Value Market Price 100 mils (check market). Do you sell T2 stuff that is hard to find? Hard to mine? Hard to craft ? Somewhere between 25-75% margin , your pick. No need to worry. They fail, they pay.
For Tier 3 - Cargo Value Market Price 100 mils. Still not that hard to find, Acanthite might be thou. Weapons and other rarities, should check market when you decide the collateral margin%.

Tier 4 - Tier 5 are on the same boat. Stuff is hard to find, hard to get, hard to mine, hard to craft and it will be easy to get it from you if somehow we will be able to see what is in inside the Cargo and margin is only 25% more.


So, lets assume we cant see the Cargo. There will be players out there that will Create Hauling missions with SHORT time and High Collateral dmg so you cant do it. They will create the mission and they will camp the planets and the pipes so they get the collateral from you.

Lets assume we can see the Cargo. You have 1000kl of Illmenite on Jago and you want it sent to Alioth. Illmenite Market price is 2000. there are 18.000 piece in market. Since we live in times where quanta is inflated and we already know that Always Assume Cargo Is Lost would you like to trade your 1000kl  illmenite for 2.000.000.000 b quanta to somebody? I know i wouldnt but you also dont want to do it. So setup a price between 2b value X somewhere between 2 and 5 and create the contract. "Would you like to move my 1000kl Illmenite with 6b collateral?" Yes or No. I hope the system it wont be that hard.


There will be people who will abuse and trick the system since the 1st hour so its smart not to put your best and most valuable/rare items on the Cargo especially with T4-T5 stuff since you never know if you will ever receive it

1: Never pay collateral quanta payment upfront via trade to anybody. Always do it via Missions Systems.
2: There are lots of players in game with alt accounts. They will try to win/trade/reward system to gain reputation as Honest Traders and scam you if your collateral %margin is not correct. It was done before and it will be done again. The scam is simple. You literally sell your cargo for the price you are asking in collateral :).
3: Check delivery time. If the Contracter wants to camp/kill your ship and get your Collateral and his cargo back, he will try to kill you. Always assume it will happen in pvp zone.
4: Dont accept friend requests from Contracters in game. They will try to track you down in space if you slowboat.
5: Always add value to Cargo, to time needed to scan it, mine it. Dont think that market reflects the true value of the cargo. Only you can do that.
6: Collateral values like x10 - x50 is nothing (but you will need to have it) since sometimes that mechanic wont trigger if you dont open the cargo.
7: Test the system before you hand out items to the new mission systems.

Always assume that the Cargo will be lost, check the Delivery time to see if you have time to do it right. Sometimes it will be wise to warp, sometimes not and if you are in pvp zone there will be some of us there waiting for you.

If you are into Hauling Stuff, Create and Org, find more players like you and do hard missions in group.

o7

[MukkBarovian]

Pizza delivery reporting for duty! I had to collateralize 100$ for the privilege of delivering you this pizza. I am an thrilled to be undertaking such dangerous and exotic missions.

[Hazaatan]

of course more scams... This game caters to the worst kind of players.  Trusting gamers to make a civilization is like trusting a fat lady in a bakery to not overeat...

[Deintus]

This would be the perfect time that a big rich org create online insurance for cargo.

 

 

[Hazard0814]

I can see it now, the Geico gecko in a space suite.

[Novean-51583]

On 1/29/2021 at 9:24 PM, Deintus said:

This would be the perfect time that a big rich org create online insurance for cargo.

 

 

We don't have the tools to do that.

How can you trust someone to pay him/her x quanta each x time for covering your loses ?

 

Nothing in the game allows you to make it secure yet.

[Novean-51583]

Just make it user defined like EvE, colateral less than 100% of transported goods is up to losses in case of a problem (attack, accident, stealing etc).

 

I would take the possibility of a scam from the person creating the job than from the person doing the job since there are way more potential problems this way.

[Daphne Jones]

I'll be glad to take your mission. Just need a deposit equal to the value of my ship to be refunded once I return to base after delivering your cargo and getting paid. I assume most missions will actually be scams ?‍♀️

[Deintus]

4 hours ago, Pacman-1 said:

We don't have the tools to do that.

How can you trust someone to pay him/her x quanta each x time for covering your loses ?

 

Nothing in the game allows you to make it secure yet.

No real infrastructure is in game even tho many players have requested it. Just shooting out thoughts.

 

Maybe it's like @Daphne Jones
says and we front 15 mil quanta to make 100k? But I imagine a tax or fee is taken off the top, so you get 90% of your deposit back. End up paying to do a mission ?

 

[Daphne Jones]

Just now, Deintus said:

No real infrastructure is in game even tho many players have requested it. Just shooting out thoughts.

 

Maybe it's like @Daphne Jones
says and we front 15 mil quanta to make 100k? But I imagine a tax or fee is taken off the top, so you get 90% of your deposit back. End up paying to do a mission ?

 

My point is the customer gives the hauler a deposit lol. If I get attacked by pirates, it's a pretty good bet that the mission was a scam to set me up for the pirates - in which case, the customer's deposit buys me a new ship. I'm not putting up collateral to accept a mission that's probably a scam and I'm not taking a mission in unsafe space without insurance for my ship.

[GraXXoR]

On 1/30/2021 at 3:27 AM, Hazaatan said:

Trusting gamers to make a civilization is like trusting a fat lady in a baker to not overeat...

I always hate it when a fat lady climbs inside a baker. Very American Horror Story.
 

On 1/30/2021 at 5:55 AM, Haku0814 said:

I can see it now, the Geico gecko in a space suite.

Drat, so I had to go and see what the heck the Geico Gecko was.... ?
Cute litte fella. Did enjoy the "Better Together" ad and the one where he welcomed his neighbours with "biscuits" not "cookies"... LOL.

More entertaining than a lot of the shite on TV that passes for programming these days.

[Novean-51583]

49 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

My point is the customer gives the hauler a deposit lol. If I get attacked by pirates, it's a pretty good bet that the mission was a scam to set me up for the pirates - in which case, the customer's deposit buys me a new ship. I'm not putting up collateral to accept a mission that's probably a scam and I'm not taking a mission in unsafe space without insurance for my ship.

If you get attacked and your ship gets destroyed the only thing lost is your ship since if colateral equals the transported goods (and colateral is always more than the goods in EVE btw) then your employer just gets the value of his cargo back. Obv you can always get scammed but IMO it's a better option. Your ship, your reponsibility, don't fly what you can't afford to lose etc.

 

On the other side your employer has no reason to trust you at all, not only he pays you to do the job but also he has everything to lose if you scam him.

 

[Novean-51583]

54 minutes ago, Deintus said:

No real infrastructure is in game even tho many players have requested it. Just shooting out thoughts.

 

Maybe it's like @Daphne Jones
says and we front 15 mil quanta to make 100k? But I imagine a tax or fee is taken off the top, so you get 90% of your deposit back. End up paying to do a mission ?

 

I agree that game lacks so much base infrastructure I personaly love some stock exchange market I would only do that if it ever get added.

[Daphne Jones]

2 minutes ago, Pacman-1 said:

If you get attacked and your ship gets destroyed the only thing lost is your ship since if colateral equals the transported goods (and colateral is always more than the goods in EVE btw) then your employer just gets the value of his cargo back. Obv you can always get scammed but IMO it's a better option. Your ship, your reponsibility, don't fly what you can't afford to lose etc.

 

On the other side your employer has no reason to trust you at all, not only he pays you to do the job but also he has everything to lose if you scam him.

 

Yeah. I won't be taking player missions - at least not out of safe space - cause the whole idea is shit. It's really sad. If I want to do missions I'll log into SC where if the mission giver is scamming, it's part of a carefully crafted story-line.

[Novean-51583]

6 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

Yeah. I won't be taking player missions - at least not out of safe space - cause the whole idea is shit. It's really sad. If I want to do missions I'll log into SC where if the mission giver is scamming, it's part of a carefully crafted story-line.

I think you are surestimating the will and time of someone to scam you for no real reason.

Even in EvE the most common scam was using zones inaccessible for players delivering stuff as destination and get back the colateral.

 

Edit: With current inflation and some orgs having insane amounts of cash it will probably be very profitable to just haul things around IMO since people may lack time or are lazy to do that themselves.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Pacman-1
Spelling

[Daphne Jones]

Just now, Pacman-1 said:

I think you are surestimating the will and time of someone to scam you for no real reason.

Even in EvE the most common scam was using zones inaccessible for players delivering stuff as destination and get back the colateral.

I expect the offered payment for delivery will just barely cover costs, if that. With margins that range from razer-thin to negative, scams don't have to be common to destroy the business. Just mining and playing the markets will bring better (or at least some) profit.

[GraXXoR]

10 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

I'll be glad to take your mission. Just need a deposit equal to the value of my ship to be refunded once I return to base after delivering your cargo and getting paid. I assume most missions will actually be scams ?‍♀️

Mission Board:

"My name is Darameus Brown. I'm a Lacobian pirnce. I have 3L contnainers that needing shipping to Lacobus. They were bequeathed to me by my farther before his past away.

Just bring the coatnainers over to Lacobus and plaese make sure to arive at about 14:00 GMT to recieve genarous paymenet."

 

Seems legit. 

 

[Daphne Jones]

7 minutes ago, Pacman-1 said:

I think you are surestimating the will and time of someone to scam you for no real reason.

Even in EvE the most common scam was using zones inaccessible for players delivering stuff as destination and get back the colateral.

 

 

That brings up an interesting question. Will we (haulers) know the value of the package we're hauling? It would really stupid to put up more in collateral than the package is worth since that would provide motive for the scam. Both side have to have an incentive for the mission to succeed or it never will.

[Novean-51583]

2 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

I expect the offered payment for delivery will just barely cover costs, if that. With margins that range from razer-thin to negative, scams don't have to be common to destroy the business. Just mining and playing the markets will bring better (or at least some) profit.

The price is gonna be set to what people accept, if everyone refuse low payement then it will go up, hard to know right now how it's gonna be IMO.

[Novean-51583]

3 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

That brings up an interesting question. Will we (haulers) know the value of the package we're hauling. It would really stupid to put up more in collateral than the package is worth since that provide motive for the scam. Both side have to have an incentive for the mission to succeed or it never will.

If you see 500% colateral you have to ask yourself if that not a little shady. But it's also the importance and the time, someone may need that cargo asap, and if it gets destroyed that someone may lose more than the cargo.

 

Edit: You also need at least the volume moved to plan the ship you are gonna use.

[Daphne Jones]

Just now, Pacman-1 said:

If you see 500% colateral you have to ask yourself if that not a little shady. But it's also the importance and the time, someone may need that cargo asap, and if it gets destroyed that someone may lose more than the cargo.

500% is a guaranteed scam. If you succeed in delivering it just means the mission giver failed. Even if the customer loses more than the cargo on failure, that's on him - don't fly what you can't afford to lose... it cuts both ways.

[Novean-51583]

Just now, Daphne Jones said:

500% is a guaranteed scam. If you succeed in delivering it just means the mission giver failed. Even if the customer loses more than the cargo on failure, that's on him - don't fly what you can't afford to lose... it cuts both ways.

That an opinion there I think, if you ask me you take responsibility for the cargo the moment you accept the mission.

Since it's a single shard MMO you will get known as trustworthy or not if you do a lot of missions anyway.

 

And yes 500% is obv a scam or an idiot but that was just an example.

 

But know that, if I'm not wrong, in EvE most people go for 130%ish colateral.

[Daphne Jones]

1 minute ago, Pacman-1 said:

 

 

But know that, if I'm not wrong, in EvE most people go for 130%ish colateral.

Confirming my low opinion of EVE players lol. There's no reason the hauler should take responsibility for anything except delivering the cargo.

[JohnnyTazer]

2 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Confirming my low opinion of EVE players lol. There's no reason the hauler should take responsibility for anything except delivering the cargo.

 

Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values.[1] People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs. Confirmation bias cannot be eliminated entirely, but it can be managed, for example, by education and training in critical thinking skills.

 

 

Since daphne has never played eve, I can help explain to her, or anyone who hasn't.  When putting out a contract, you yourself don't want to get scammed, as the person that is hauling can take your shit, or themselves could fail to deliver (to no fault of your own).  And markets slighty fluctuate a lot.  And there are always margins, between buying and selling.  You cannot know if someone acquired those goods through the sell order, or the "buy" order.  So when making collateral you make your best guess, and if hauling a bunch of items its not always 100%.  As to each person, some people sell to the buy, or put the item up to be sold (taking time and dealing with 0.01 isk traders).  So when you get an "estimate" of its worth, you always throw the collateral a few percentages above, to cover and mishaps in the hauling contract.  This often has nothing to do with scams, just that I want my items hauled to an area for a very specific reason.  I dont want the hauler to get fail the contract, but in the unlikely event the person does, I want to make sure all my items are covered by collateral.  

 

So this is once again Daphne unable to exercise critical thinking, and using confirmation bias just because a random person made a random comment about percentages with hauling contracts in a game she has never played, so she would be unable to understand that estimating collateral is a common practice and haulers like the company red frog deal with on a daily basis.  And continue to make a profit by doing so.

 

 

[Deintus]

10 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Confirming my low opinion of EVE players lol. There's no reason the hauler should take responsibility for anything except delivering the cargo.

In RL the hauler is required to have insurance to cover loss or stolen goods or to show the ability to replace the lost or stolen goods. Of course with all systems the paying of such insurance is passed down to the end consumer as always, but thats our world today.