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[Discussion] DevBlog: The Mission System


NQ-Naunet
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38 minutes ago, Elitez said:

How will the scoring system work ?

My only concern...Point/Reward/Scoring system. How do you reward somebody knowing you can abuse the system since day 1 with alts, org alts, friend's alts, friend of friend alts, etc?!!?!

Scoring/Value system will have problems if with 1 account you can Create Missions and Vote multiple OTHER accounts on daily basis. How will the scoring system work ?

28 minutes ago, CommanderLouiz said:

You have to participate in the mission to rate it, you can't just give somebody 5 stars without doing something.

Plus I imagine that word of mouth will spread of anyone abusing it, to be avoided.


This seems likely to me as well, but I'm asking for a more in-depth explanation of how we might combat potential abuse. :) 

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45 minutes ago, Kirth Gersen said:

Whatever you do put up a test server for this and open it to everyone. 

 

pushing to live new systems barely tested and/or tested by people who don't actually play the game like the average player would is going to end badly.

A public test server is in the works. ? More info to come.

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27 minutes ago, Soulinks said:

Now, my question is if they will consider being able to create 'Loans' to players, so that you can help someone invest in something and they agree to pay it back (and maybe with interest) over time? Giving, say a construct they have or items as collateral...


Very interesting prospect. I'll share this suggestion!

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Good update. Some possible issues.

1. warping with a package should break it, this will prevent people from stacking alts/missions on a ship and warping them all together to make it worth it (or may them super heavy?)

2. Dumping items, the package its self needs to be impossible to dump, must remain in container and has a 10min opening timer or people will dump items when caught out of spite. If this happens there will be no point chasing them and the risk part of the system will fall and we'll be back to square one.

3. If you log out you should fail the mission, this would prevent the alt manipulation to a point.

4. Higher valued missions should go through pvp zone, for example able to put down 10m and be able to make...12.5m? on the other side. this will have pvpers camp those lanes + roam around asteroids giving them multiple things to do.

 

I feel this will be a great update for the game but needs to be heavily tested, if this system is abused it'll make people really negative about it and it'll be harder to convince people to try it/play the game. 

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6 minutes ago, NQ-Naunet said:


Very interesting prospect. I'll share this suggestion!

Please take this post into consideration also:

Hauling Mission:

In order to Create a collateral mission it is very important if the players wants to take this job very serious, Trade/Creator should pay a tax(insert number here). Before Creating Missions it is important to think wisely what you are asking, what you need, when do you need and what exactly do you type there so i really think its a good idea WHEN they want to CANCEL any mission before time is up, it is important that the Creator pays a "Canceling Tax" which should be big,  so next time he does it better and pays attention more when creating missions.

Paying Canceling Tax 2nd time is always a choice :) Also very important aspect imho

A small number of missions like 1/1, 3/3, 5/5 should be maximised per 24h synced with daily login bonus maybe ?!

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I would do missions, but I expect I will just avoid the whole thing.

 

I think it's likely that missions that 1) require significant collateral and 2) are actually setups for pirates will be common... and if that's common, who would be foolish enough to take the risk of taking a mission. High risk should come with high reward - not a guarantee of failure.

 

We need reverse collateral - if I'm attacked by pirates while hauling your stuff, you pay for replacement of my ship.

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I'm looking forward to it. I hope I can make some money and create some missions for items I need.

 

Questions:

1. Will the package have a weight of the containing items or be weightless like a blueprint? I guess making it weightless would be an exploit for free transport.

2. Would it be possible to get a package, logout on a ship and another player fly you to the destination? This way it, the package would be safe and couldn't be destroyed.

 

1 minute ago, Daphne Jones said:

I think it's likely that missions that 1) require significant collateral and 2) are actually setups for pirates will be common... and if that's common, who would be foolish enough to take the risk of taking a mission. High risk should come with high reward - not a guarantee of failure.

 

We need reverse collateral - if I'm attacked by pirates while hauling your stuff, you pay for replacement of my ship.

The drop-off on a planet is right now 100% safe (right?). It's your choice how you transport it (slowboat vs warp)

That would make people suicide into pirates or have friends kill them.

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So people can just warp missions for cash? Seems like that skips the entire PVP game loop. Why would PVP folks even login right now? No PVP concessions made honestly. How will this create more non-warp traffic in space? I don't believe it will honestly. Also, why isn't there collateral both ways? The reward should be locked in too. Collateral for the one to accept it is a half answer...Picking up rewards at a players base is totally gameable as well. Start digging.

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15 minutes ago, VarietyMMOs said:

1. warping with a package should break it, this will prevent people from stacking alts/missions on a ship and warping them all together to make it worth it (or may them super heavy?)

I understand the motivation behind this, but it's a benefit to the contract creator if the courier decides to warp the goods. The creator gets the job done faster.

 

Rather than adding an arbitrary restriction to missions, we should wait for changes to warp mechanics to make pvp possible for ships that warp to planets.

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4 minutes ago, k3rmit said:

I'm looking forward to it. I hope I can make some money and create some missions for items I need.

 

Questions:

1. Will the package have a weight of the containing items or be weightless like a blueprint? I guess making it weightless would be an exploit for free transport.

2. Would it be possible to get a package, logout on a ship and another player fly you to the destination? This way it, the package would be safe and couldn't be destroyed.

 

The drop-off on a planet is right now 100% safe (right?). It's your choice how you transport it (slowboat vs warp)

That would make people suicide into pirates or have friends kill them.

I'm assuming that eventually the drop off will not necessarily be safe and neither will the warp drop out point.

 

But, sure, while those things are safe, I'll do hauling contracts that pay enough to use warp and have no collateral required. I might even tolerate collateral if I'm sure the buyer can't prevent me from delivering the goods.

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36 minutes ago, Soulinks said:

If you want to just compare things back to other games, then Elite;Dangerous, No Mans Sky, Empyrion, Everspace and many more are just rip-offs from Eve.

None of the games you mention pretty much lift mechanics out of EVE verbatim. DU is doing so consistently  (Talents, Schematics, Missions being prime examples). There is no shame nor is it a concern for me if a game takes their cues from other games that have shown to be successful in what they do but what is missing in this case is the underlying game systems that support and feed into these loops.

 

And the mission system is no different. 

 

We've heard of this system and how NQ thinks it is the one mechanic that will tie everything together and how they tried to get it into the game by beta but were not able to. Then, 6 months later (this patch will be rushed out he door by the end of February I am willing to bet) we get what? Another minimal first iteration of a mechanics which has been talked about for many, many months.

 

It's also quite funny to see NQ try and spin a bit of "see, we listened" into their wording which is absolutely laughable.,

 

 

To quote the devblog:

Quote

The intent of Mission system is to:

  • Offer new ways for players, especially new players, to make money.
  • Allow merchants to focus on creating goods rather than spending time traveling to markets to sell their wares.
  • Give those who enjoy traveling more than making things a lucrative reason to take to those beautiful, wide-open skies.
  • Create more traffic in space, hence more opportunities for pirates.
  • Help organizations to coordinate internal work.

 

  • How will new players make money here? To get hauling, they need a hauler which costs money.. to get money they need.. to go mining (and back to square one)
  • Merchants are already working on slim margins unless they were able to grab some extra funding using mistakes NQ makes and fails to correct. In case NA has not noticed (which they probably have not) Merchants have already been coordinating their efforts in creating malls and outlets at several locations using local transpost where they can't do it themselves. they wil not have any need for this system as it adds extra paperwork and effort.
  • LOL
  • WARP is your friend and wil be for several months more anyway..
  • Orgs have their own logistics organisation, they do not need nor will they use this system as it adds red tape

 

A lot of the shortcomings in game, due to the lack of progress in development, have been resolved by players directly.. Emergent gameplay works, who knew!? (and NQ certainly does not recognize it even when it is tight in front of them). NQ is constantly playing catchup and not really succeeding. The player base that is still here has already made this system obsolete before it even gets in to the game _especially_ the hauling part of it. But NQ does not even realize this. Whet may well happen now though is that they wil find a way to force the system down everyone's throat, especially the players outside of orgs, pretty much like they did with schematics.

 

Orgs have entire internal infrastructure set up , including their own currency. They distribute jobs, hand out tasks and provide loans and/or assets to their members who can use these to go about and do their business which in return feeds back into the org. Some of the org management teams have a better understanding of the game than NQ and certainly a better understanding of how to manage and promote their business.

 

Ship sales have been resolved by the player base in a way NQ would never be able to. Player markets are next to resolved, there is one stop subcomponent store fronts all over the place, functioning better and with less lag and hassle than the markets do. There are already escrow agencies in game who will offer their services when large transactions are in play. Hauling has already seen some development far beyond the abilities of the mission system. Yes.. it is obsolete before it is even introduced.

 

NQ has no idea what is happening in their own game as far as what players are actually building or doing and just keeps stumbling ahead like a blind horse, sticking to their own agenda regardless, instead of taking the emerging gameplay we see happen and build on it. One can only guess as to why..

 

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1 hour ago, Elitez said:

How will the scoring system work ?

My only concern...Point/Reward/Scoring system. How do you reward somebody knowing you can abuse the system since day 1 with alts, org alts, friend's alts, friend of friend alts, etc?!!?!

Scoring/Value system will have problems if with 1 account you can Create Missions and Vote multiple OTHER accounts on daily basis. How will the scoring system work ?


Alright, I have an answer for you. :)

"The first thing to keep in mind is that you have to spend quanta in order to begin a mission, which creates some measure of abuse deterrence. Also note that the issuer and respondent rate each other at the end of each mission.

To avoid reputation farming and other forms of abuse, we've given everyone the ability to review the whole mission history of a player. If you feel that his reputation has been manipulated/is suspicious, you can check the player's past missions and assess the issuers/distance/completion state etc."

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44 minutes ago, VarietyMMOs said:

Good update. Some possible issues.

1. warping with a package should break it, this will prevent people from stacking alts/missions on a ship and warping them all together to make it worth it (or may them super heavy?)

2. Dumping items, the package its self needs to be impossible to dump, must remain in container and has a 10min opening timer or people will dump items when caught out of spite. If this happens there will be no point chasing them and the risk part of the system will fall and we'll be back to square one.

3. If you log out you should fail the mission, this would prevent the alt manipulation to a point.

4. Higher valued missions should go through pvp zone, for example able to put down 10m and be able to make...12.5m? on the other side. this will have pvpers camp those lanes + roam around asteroids giving them multiple things to do.

 

I feel this will be a great update for the game but needs to be heavily tested, if this system is abused it'll make people really negative about it and it'll be harder to convince people to try it/play the game. 

So the missions will have a predictable flight path and pirates can just sit and wait.... yeah this going to to go so well.

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1 hour ago, xplosivesheep said:

It is quite weird of an update (like it was any different, but that is no the point of this post).

 

If I understand correctly, mission creation and most importantly quantas, come from the players. So this means:

- no or little missions from Aphelia or any non-existing NPC organization

- no additional quantas generated in the system

- money to be going from larger players, who _usually_ belong to a larger corporation, so unless you straight up jump into it, you're likely to get breadcrumbs if any at all

 

So it does seem like a half-baked solution that will do nothing to majority, will most probably be exploited by pirates or exploiters and in the end there won't be any break from mining for anyone needing quantas for either industry, ships, ship building or anything alike.

 

I rate this devblog 1 only for the effort but inability to solve any pressing issues.


I have an answer for you!

"Aphelia hauling missions will be a new avenue of quanta generation."

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14 minutes ago, NQ-Naunet said:


Alright, I have an answer for you. :)

"The first thing to keep in mind is that you have to spend quanta in order to begin a mission, which creates some measure of abuse deterrence. Also note that the issuer and respondent rate each other at the end of each mission.

To avoid reputation farming and other forms of abuse, we've given everyone the ability to review the whole mission history of a player. If you feel that his reputation has been manipulated/is suspicious, you can check the player's past missions and assess the issuers/distance/completion state etc."

Any info on Cancelling Fee for Missions ? Especially for those Missions where there are Billions quanta collateral ?

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21 minutes ago, NQ-Naunet said:


Alright, I have an answer for you. :)

"The first thing to keep in mind is that you have to spend quanta in order to begin a mission, which creates some measure of abuse deterrence. Also note that the issuer and respondent rate each other at the end of each mission.

To avoid reputation farming and other forms of abuse, we've given everyone the ability to review the whole mission history of a player. If you feel that his reputation has been manipulated/is suspicious, you can check the player's past missions and assess the issuers/distance/completion state etc."

So it costs to put up a mission? If so how much is it? Second question since its unclear to me when reading the devblog: is the reward actually fixed and guaranteed/paid when delivering the item to the container or is it for the mission giver to decide if he pays or not? I'm asking because of "What is important to remember is that negotiations about rewards, or even the job description and purpose, are entirely declarative and non-binding" while in another part of the blog it states: "These come with formal guarantees on the rewards, collaterals, time, etc"

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