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Dredger Mining Efficiency Skill Nerfed?


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Scuttlebutt is that the Dredger, Mining Efficiency skill (5% more ore extracted per level) has been nerfed by JC.

According to our miners, they are getting only 2.6% increase for LEVEL 5.... That's 2.2m Skill points (17 days or so) for a 2.6% increase in extraction.
But I waited over 2 weeks for this skill to stew and  now can't detect any increase in my maximum or "bite" size which stayed somewhere around 300L per "bite" rather than increasing to 330 or over 360 as expected. Still getting around 4k for a standard "mini" node as per usual when I was expecting to be able to extract 5k per node.


I really hope our miners and I are just being thick and that this is merely a grave misapprehension.

 

JC wouldn't purposefully nerf a skill in order to slow down progress without giving the players half a month of subscription worth of skill points back. Would he? Surely? No... 

 

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That's a very... creative... interpretation there.   How does that stack with "Mining Optimizations" -5% time to reach max sphere size skill.    And the "Advanced Mining" +5

Quote from the kickstarter. So the problem isn't that players are trying to force the game into something else, and more that the DU roadmap is changing into something that looks less and less

And here is what NQ replied. Are they really this far removed from actual game play, that they think this is a good change that will help single players? Nerfing industry and mining was an

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8 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

Scuttlebutt is that the Dredger, Mining Efficiency skill (5% more ore extracted per level) has been nerfed by JC.

According to our miners, they are getting only 2.6% increase for LEVEL 5.... That's 2.2m Skill points (17 days or so) for a 2.6% increase in extraction.
But I waited over 2 weeks for this skill to stew and  now can't detect any increase in my maximum or "bite" size which stayed somewhere around 300L per "bite" rather than increasing to 330 or over 360 as expected. Still getting around 4k for a standard "mini" node as per usual when I was expecting to be able to extract 5k per node.


I really hope our miners and I are just being thick and that this is merely a grave misapprehension.

 

JC wouldn't purposefully nerf a skill in order to slow down progress without giving the players half a month of subscription worth of skill points back. Would he? Surely? No... 

 

It is 5 x 5% ore extracted = 25% faster mining not more ore(extra ore). If you find 2000KL in the tile when you scan it, thats what you get no matter what skill you have. No nerf here.
unknown.png

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9 minutes ago, Elitez said:

It is 5 x 5% ore extracted = 25% faster mining not more ore(extra ore). If you find 2000KL in the tile when you scan it, thats what you get no matter what skill you have. No nerf here.
unknown.png

That's a very... creative... interpretation there.
 

How does that stack with

"Mining Optimizations"
-5% time to reach max sphere size skill. 

 

And the "Advanced Mining"

+5% max sphere size.

please show us.


I'm going to test this language on my employes.... +5% salary earned per year... After 5 years you"ll be +25% more earned.... but only get paid for the first 80% of the day.

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in my language "+ 5% ore extracted" means that what I get is more than those who don't.

 

Or is a bug - talent dont works correctly.

 

Or is it an impression (possible ... I hope ... a ninja nerf to a basic mechanic is already wrong and a very unpleasant thing).

 

Or whoever wrote it really meant a speed boost and the description needs to be changed (and lost 2kk of talent points and 2 weeks of subscribtion for something different).

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This is from this morning, as you can see i mined 3196l out of a 2624l node, i have mining efficiency lvl 3, so15% increase, instead it came out slightly more than 20% additional ore. I'd say that either the talent is completely bugged or the additional amount comes from a scanner miscalculation/bad approximation and the talent is simply giving you more ore per click.

 

Btw, considering how much a miner mines this talent is still a benefit, ofc there are better talents to be taken before this.

 

 

mine.jpg

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2 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

That's a very... creative... interpretation there.
 

How does that stack with

"Mining Optimizations"
-5% time to reach max sphere size skill. 

 

And the "Advanced Mining"

+5% max sphere size.

please show us.


I'm going to test this language on my employes.... +5% salary earned per year... After 5 years you"ll be +25% more earned.... but only get paid for the first 80% of the day.


-5% time to reach max sphere size skill. - Bigger sphere size will scoop more. That means Way Many More Times to scoop per hour, its like eating faster :)))

+5% max sphere size = Bigger spoon. 

TLDR: Overall....The plate is the same. You eat faster and with a bigger spoon :)

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1 hour ago, Leogradance said:

in my language "+ 5% ore extracted" means that what I get is more than those who don't.

In math there is no such thing  as "+ 5% ore extracted". Because in math 5%=5/100 = 0.05.

So if we were to exacly put +5% ore extracted we would have 4000l + 0.05l bonus = 4000.05l

 

In math you got PostSkillAmount=PreSkillAmmount * 1.05^LevelOfSkill

4000 * 1.05^5 = 4000 * 1.276... = 5105.12625

 

In general NQ applies +X skills and +Y% skills as:

PostSkillAmount = [ PreSkillAmmount + ( XLevel * Xbonus )  ]  *    ( 1 +  YBonus/100  )  ^  YLevel

 

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I think the only real way to find out if there is a nerf is to have a T1 and a T5 mining skill person scan and mine out a tile and see if you get the 25% bonus. Until you have the hard numbers from the scan to test if you get what it says your supposed to get its all just subjective and people claiming they arent getting what they think they should. As always the solution is to mine to find out.

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unknown.png?width=950&height=137

13 minutes ago, Warlander said:

I think the only real way to find out if there is a nerf is to have a T1 and a T5 mining skill person scan and mine out a tile and see if you get the 25% bonus. Until you have the hard numbers from the scan to test if you get what it says your supposed to get its all just subjective and people claiming they arent getting what they think they should. As always the solution is to mine to find out.

T5 :) - max mining skills.
 

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Really anyone can test it out for themselves regardless of tier. You just have to take a scan and watch out for the nodes that cross tiles and account for that. If you get more then the tile says it does then its working as intended.

 

I just wish there was more random things during mining that could get you a variance that can give bonus gather procs, grades, and other things between nodes or that there was some kind of metaleurgy branches that could specifically give more per ore type or the possibility to mine pure ore. There should be other things between nodes as well with sifting or bonus rocks that pop out when you mine the sand, tundra, or snow. Mining is boring as is and there should be multiple ways to mine like there are multiple ways to fly, fight, or produce. Just something that gives you potentially more per mining session then is allowed currently with this out of the box standard issue mining system.

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Mining is broken, Mining talents are broken, the actual content of materials per m3 is broken, But this seems all to be intentional since debating it since day one did absolutely nothing not did we get an "I hear you"response.  So: Yes it is all broken and NQ is aware but its most probably intentional like this and will not change.  Its sad, on a good day i might see 2 people active. It used to be so many. Now? Feels like DU itself has Corona infected and everyone ingame is in ingame-quaranteen.  Sadly though, since du to the lockdowns people should have so much time to actually play.

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2 hours ago, Fra119 said:

Wth are those operations xD

+5% on 4000l is 5(4000/100)=200 so 4200l total.

 

I get you, but the notation +5% is flawed and can create this type of miss interpretation
"+5%" is translated to "100%+5%" = 105% = 1.05

as in X=Y*1.05

 

The miss interpretation is that level 3 would equal to  +5%+5%+5% = 15% but this is not correct.
Because the correct interpretation is level 3 equal to 1.05*1.05*1.05 = 1.157625 or in your notation +15.7625 %

 

This change makes ppl believe that NQ does not know how to make basic math with 5+5+5 ending up at 15.7625 while the reality is that ppl don't understand how the calculation was done.

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Because it is 5%

1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:

I get you, but the notation +5% is flawed and can create this type of miss interpretation
"+5%" is translated to "100%+5%" = 105% = 1.05

as in X=Y*1.05

 

The miss interpretation is that level 3 would equal to  +5%+5%+5% = 15% but this is not correct.
Because the correct interpretation is level 3 equal to 1.05*1.05*1.05 = 1.157625 or in your notation +15.7625 %

 

This change make ppl believe that NQ does not know how to make basic math with 5+5+5 ending up at 15.7625 while the reality is that ppl don't understand how the calculation was done.

I understand but i dont care how formula works as long as it works. 5% more ore scooped per level according to whatever i scooped/tradined and i am ok with that. I dont need to know basic values as long as i want to be full miner, right ?

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1 minute ago, Elitez said:

Because it is 5%

I understand but i dont care how formula works as long as it works. 5% more ore scooped per level according to whatever i scooped/tradined and i am ok with that. I dont need to know basic values as long as i want to be full miner, right ?

I have no idea if it was nerfed or not. I gave up on this game 3 months ago.
I was just explaining the correct way to calculate the bonus.

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Just now, joaocordeiro said:

I have no idea if it was nerfed or not. I gave up on this game 3 months ago.
I was just explaining the correct way to calculate the bonus.

What i can tell is that ive mined for a week without lvl 5(5%) values and i had no idea why i am so slow :)))) than i realised i have not fully specced again in mining after 0.23 :D

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2 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

I have no idea if it was nerfed or not. I gave up on this game 3 months ago.
I was just explaining the correct way to calculate the bonus.

Look at my example above (3192l ore out of a 2624l scan, talent at lvl 3), how can those numbers relate? Imho this talent doesn't give you extra ore, it simply let you mine faster.

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3 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

In math there is no such thing  as "+ 5% ore extracted". Because in math 5%=5/100 = 0.05.

So if we were to exacly put +5% ore extracted we would have 4000l + 0.05l bonus = 4000.05l

 

In math you got PostSkillAmount=PreSkillAmmount * 1.05^LevelOfSkill

4000 * 1.05^5 = 4000 * 1.276... = 5105.12625

 

In general NQ applies +X skills and +Y% skills as:

PostSkillAmount = [ PreSkillAmmount + ( XLevel * Xbonus )  ]  *    ( 1 +  YBonus/100  )  ^  YLevel

 

you are absolutely right.
I think...

This is not the problem though.
The problem is that I, and many like me, am a gamer, not a mathematician.
If I read "+ 5%" for every time I activate the talent, for me it is a sum, not an equation.

I'm not incapable: it is NQ who expects me to understand, without explaining it, that I have to make a calculation that has nothing to do with the gameplay.

Like many other things in this game, the way of communicating is done by programmers to be understandable by programmers, or other people with math / logic mind.

Only this is a game.

Always assuming it's not just a bug.

Ps: all players I've played with have understood that + 5% ore extracted at level 5 = + 25%.
Either we are all idiots, or NQ has to explain himself better.

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15 minutes ago, Aaron Cain said:

Mining is broken, Mining talents are broken, the actual content of materials per m3 is broken, But this seems all to be intentional since debating it since day one did absolutely nothing not did we get an "I hear you"response.  So: Yes it is all broken and NQ is aware but its most probably intentional like this and will not change.  Its sad, on a good day i might see 2 people active. It used to be so many. Now? Feels like DU itself has Corona infected and everyone ingame is in ingame-quaranteen.  Sadly though, since du to the lockdowns people should have so much time to actually play.

It is intentional. I consider mining to be the root of all evil in this game.

 

You cant point to any one system and fix it that does not directly lead back to mining. Every single system in the game is impacted by mining. How much you can produce, build, fly, fight, etc is all based on how much you can mine. You cant change those systems without changing mining. Or if you do it just adds more mining and tedium. You cant lessen it or the mega orgs just get that much stronger with more cash in their pockets saving up for TWs. You give them any incrimental increase and it comes out to millions/billions down the road for mega orgs and hurting everyone else even more. It always comes down to mining. And NQ has developed themselves into a corner because of it. And instead of putting hard limits on the top end and chopping from the top or decreasing their ability with scaling systems that hurt the megaorgs the most while still allowing everyone to progress and catch up to them they are designing a game against the majority of players instead of the mega orgs.

 

MegaOrgs should not be able to scan whole moons in about a day. They should not be able to scan a planet in a weekend either. 50 people scanning to do that is ludicrous. Why is there even tile scanning in a finite resource game anyhow? Why shouldn't they have to go out and just mine? Or be required to drop 2 mil per TU drop and be required to own a tile to see whats in it in the first place? Or just not having it at all because it breaks the game? And because they can see all the juice tiles and tiles containing rare ores they have full carblanche to rape the resource pool with superior numbers and then turn around with all bonuses and flood the markets with low cost undercutting measures that in turn take away peoples production at a potential loss to break even.

 

And because all that shit is downright broken to all hell they have to tune the industry to their resource aquisition rate. Since it takes everyone much longer to do what a megaorg does it adds so much more punishment, time, resources, tedium, and general grind because there is no limits. Because there is no limits there is no limit to the measures they think will fix the market but it just cuts everyone out of the market just that much more when you suddenly drop things like schematics that just drops 100s of millions of credits hostage on normal players while to a megaorg just jumps over it like a hurdle as it creates a content barrier for no reason. Why because mining is fucked.

 

And because mega orgs can just pump out unlimited products because they know where all the ore is and have been mining since day 1. Like the thread a while back where the people watched some other org steal billions from them. BILLIONS. At this point NQ probably should just consider giving them Free Build Mode because they honestly have gotten to the point they dont actually need resources anymore. They have so much mats, ore, parts, items, and overall oppulance that it kills the market its so incredibly saturated and the only illusion keeping it up is the same people also manipulating the market so it looks like there is one. They have so much that it boxes everyone else out. Why? because mining is fucked.

 

MegaOrgs dont really need to fight they are all in competition against us not each other. Sure some people pvp or they roll out their North Korea style military parade to flex their muscles with a blockade every once in a while but they dont even really need to we know who runs everything here. Why because mining is fucked.

 

It makes losses for the rest of us huge since it takes us a lot longer than a 500 person org. There is no chance to catch up because they have been at it for so long in a finite resource driven game to catch up. The tile scanning alone might take 50 a day to scan a moon but it takes smaller orgs with smaller scanning crews 10-100x longer. Which takes finding what is left of the dead tiles 1000x longer which takes mining longer which makes filling daily machine quotas longer our parts output longer, building longer, ship building longer, and selling for no real profits on the back end making things take even longer.

 

You cant make this a viable game unless there are hard limits or pop caps on orgs. As much as JC wants to turn them into their own factions they just arent. there isnt enough division of power or the ability to slow them down from destroying the game for everyone. No one single group of unified individuals should wield that much power without setting hard caps to org populations and forcing smaller orgs to work together which will create different leadership heiarchies, sister orgs, and stife to create conflict. Factions are multiple allied orgs working together not just 1. It lends to rivalries or hatred of each other to be organic then 500 people exploiting everything as one unit because the devs dont see it as a problem. Its the main problem with this game.

 

100 people base should be a pop cap with talents. They should have to work with other 100 person orgs and create an alliance that turns it into a faction. It does the same thing but it gives more chances for other to lead sister orgs and not any single emperor. Each alliance faction should be able to vote. Each alliance should have hard market buy/sell limits. Each org should have a set role structure required to run the org based on talents and roles as qualifications for those jobs they need to fill so that every org has what it needs to function. Orgs should have scaling costs that get worse the more you push vs hurting everyone else. That means scaling taxes, TU drop costs, rent, upkeep on their fleet/industry by wear and tear, and the total they can list in the market. They can buy all they want. But something drastic needs to be done to put them in check and allow people to catch up. It should not be an easy ride to stay on top. It should give them more work the bigger they get not the rest of the playerbase.

 

NQ/JC has no clue where this thing went wrong in the systemic flaws in this games design. Its all because mining is fucked and they cant stop rewarding megaorgs with every handout. Its too late to change any of it since its their "vision" and people have worked too hard to just make them all start over. Im sure some would be up for it but it needs to happen.

 

NQ has developed themselves into a corner with the base pass of mining to the point where if they even remotely think about improving mining it will destroy the rest of the game. If you change mining in any way it effects every aspect in the game down the line and the overall ability for scanning crews and mega org mining crews to profit even more, produce more, and not have to fight more. You cant change mining at this point unless the whole game changes in the process. You cant point to any one system and say hey this has to change without some way leading back to

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6 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

In math there is no such thing  as "+ 5% ore extracted". Because in math 5%=5/100 = 0.05.

So if we were to exacly put +5% ore extracted we would have 4000l + 0.05l bonus = 4000.05l

 

In math you got PostSkillAmount=PreSkillAmmount * 1.05^LevelOfSkill

4000 * 1.05^5 = 4000 * 1.276... = 5105.12625

 

In general NQ applies +X skills and +Y% skills as:

PostSkillAmount = [ PreSkillAmmount + ( XLevel * Xbonus )  ]  *    ( 1 +  YBonus/100  )  ^  YLevel

 

You're doing the math backwards from how the Mining efficiency talent actually works. If scanner results show 4000l of ore, the only way you can get the full 4000L is if you have L5 in Mining Efficiency under Dredger. 
So with no talent points you can get 4000 X 0.75 = 3000L
With L1 you can get 4000 X 0.80 = 3200L
With L2 you can get 4000 X 0.85 = 3400L
With L3 you can get 4000 X 0.90 = 3600L
With L4 you can get 4000 X 0.95 = 3800L
With L5 you can get 4000 X 1.00 = 4000L

Think about it. The scanner tells you how much ore is in the tile so it's impossible to get more than what the scanner is reporting. it's been like this since Alpha. I tested backwards and forwards at different levels in this skill. I was even able to predict how much oreI was ground to pull out of the ground based on scanner results and my level in Mining Efficiency. I also confirmed it again about a month ago. Now having said all this, I tested it today and there is something funky going on. My scanner result said there was 4608L of Limestone on a tile, I found one node and only got 4007L of Limestone. I scanned the tile again to make sure I didn't miss a little somewhere and the results show no Limestone on the tile.

 

This is a bug, not by design.


https://discord.com/channels/184691218184273920/748548528816521279/799891101317070850

Edited by Holylifton
Update status to reflect this is a bug being investigated
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1 hour ago, Holylifton said:

You're doing the math backwards from how the Mining efficiency talent actually works. If scanner results show 4000l of ore, the only way you can get the full 4000L is if you have L5 in Mining Efficiency under Dredger. 
So with no talent points you can get 4000 X 0.75 = 3000L
With L1 you can get 4000 X 0.80 = 3200L
With L2 you can get 4000 X 0.85 = 3400L
With L3 you can get 4000 X 0.90 = 3600L
With L4 you can get 4000 X 0.95 = 3800L
With L5 you can get 4000 X 1.00 = 4000L
 

 

well, no its not -5%-5%-%5-%5-%5 its X/1.05^5

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4 hours ago, Warlander said:

It is intentional. I consider mining to be the root of all evil in this game.

 

You cant point to any one system and fix it that does not directly lead back to mining. Every single system in the game is impacted by mining. How much you can produce, build, fly, fight, etc is all based on how much you can mine. You cant change those systems without changing mining. Or if you do it just adds more mining and tedium. You cant lessen it or the mega orgs just get that much stronger with more cash in their pockets saving up for TWs. You give them any incrimental increase and it comes out to millions/billions down the road for mega orgs and hurting everyone else even more. It always comes down to mining. And NQ has developed themselves into a corner because of it. And instead of putting hard limits on the top end and chopping from the top or decreasing their ability with scaling systems that hurt the megaorgs the most while still allowing everyone to progress and catch up to them they are designing a game against the majority of players instead of the mega orgs.

 

MegaOrgs should not be able to scan whole moons in about a day. They should not be able to scan a planet in a weekend either. 50 people scanning to do that is ludicrous. Why is there even tile scanning in a finite resource game anyhow? Why shouldn't they have to go out and just mine? Or be required to drop 2 mil per TU drop and be required to own a tile to see whats in it in the first place? Or just not having it at all because it breaks the game? And because they can see all the juice tiles and tiles containing rare ores they have full carblanche to rape the resource pool with superior numbers and then turn around with all bonuses and flood the markets with low cost undercutting measures that in turn take away peoples production at a potential loss to break even.

 

And because all that shit is downright broken to all hell they have to tune the industry to their resource aquisition rate. Since it takes everyone much longer to do what a megaorg does it adds so much more punishment, time, resources, tedium, and general grind because there is no limits. Because there is no limits there is no limit to the measures they think will fix the market but it just cuts everyone out of the market just that much more when you suddenly drop things like schematics that just drops 100s of millions of credits hostage on normal players while to a megaorg just jumps over it like a hurdle as it creates a content barrier for no reason. Why because mining is fucked.

 

And because mega orgs can just pump out unlimited products because they know where all the ore is and have been mining since day 1. Like the thread a while back where the people watched some other org steal billions from them. BILLIONS. At this point NQ probably should just consider giving them Free Build Mode because they honestly have gotten to the point they dont actually need resources anymore. They have so much mats, ore, parts, items, and overall oppulance that it kills the market its so incredibly saturated and the only illusion keeping it up is the same people also manipulating the market so it looks like there is one. They have so much that it boxes everyone else out. Why? because mining is fucked.

 

MegaOrgs dont really need to fight they are all in competition against us not each other. Sure some people pvp or they roll out their North Korea style military parade to flex their muscles with a blockade every once in a while but they dont even really need to we know who runs everything here. Why because mining is fucked.

 

It makes losses for the rest of us huge since it takes us a lot longer than a 500 person org. There is no chance to catch up because they have been at it for so long in a finite resource driven game to catch up. The tile scanning alone might take 50 a day to scan a moon but it takes smaller orgs with smaller scanning crews 10-100x longer. Which takes finding what is left of the dead tiles 1000x longer which takes mining longer which makes filling daily machine quotas longer our parts output longer, building longer, ship building longer, and selling for no real profits on the back end making things take even longer.

 

You cant make this a viable game unless there are hard limits or pop caps on orgs. As much as JC wants to turn them into their own factions they just arent. there isnt enough division of power or the ability to slow them down from destroying the game for everyone. No one single group of unified individuals should wield that much power without setting hard caps to org populations and forcing smaller orgs to work together which will create different leadership heiarchies, sister orgs, and stife to create conflict. Factions are multiple allied orgs working together not just 1. It lends to rivalries or hatred of each other to be organic then 500 people exploiting everything as one unit because the devs dont see it as a problem. Its the main problem with this game.

 

100 people base should be a pop cap with talents. They should have to work with other 100 person orgs and create an alliance that turns it into a faction. It does the same thing but it gives more chances for other to lead sister orgs and not any single emperor. Each alliance faction should be able to vote. Each alliance should have hard market buy/sell limits. Each org should have a set role structure required to run the org based on talents and roles as qualifications for those jobs they need to fill so that every org has what it needs to function. Orgs should have scaling costs that get worse the more you push vs hurting everyone else. That means scaling taxes, TU drop costs, rent, upkeep on their fleet/industry by wear and tear, and the total they can list in the market. They can buy all they want. But something drastic needs to be done to put them in check and allow people to catch up. It should not be an easy ride to stay on top. It should give them more work the bigger they get not the rest of the playerbase.

 

NQ/JC has no clue where this thing went wrong in the systemic flaws in this games design. Its all because mining is fucked and they cant stop rewarding megaorgs with every handout. Its too late to change any of it since its their "vision" and people have worked too hard to just make them all start over. Im sure some would be up for it but it needs to happen.

 

NQ has developed themselves into a corner with the base pass of mining to the point where if they even remotely think about improving mining it will destroy the rest of the game. If you change mining in any way it effects every aspect in the game down the line and the overall ability for scanning crews and mega org mining crews to profit even more, produce more, and not have to fight more. You cant change mining at this point unless the whole game changes in the process. You cant point to any one system and say hey this has to change without some way leading back to

 

You can't hard cap orgs, sorry just no practical way to do so. Power / Influence consolidates and none of your suggestions to try and limit orgs would have any effect at all. Hard cap on how many items an org can list? You realize orgs don't list items in the first place, and if there are hundreds of org members they can all just list the items individually. Most orgs exist outside the game anyway as org tools in game are garbage. These groups on discord are not going to be 'chopped' up by any limits you dream up in game in any practical sense. The more you try that stunt the more you will consolidate power even moreso into outside the game guilds that no one can compete with because 20 different orgs in game are really just the same group out of game.

 

There are not systemic flaws in the game vision. There are systemic flaws in your assumption that there needs to be some sort of balance to limit the power of the many against the few. Sorry , thats not the way the world works. If you had any idea the amount of 'work' involved in coordinating a good sized org in this game in the first place you might have more respect for how much effort those players have to put in just to steer that many players in the same general direction , manage permissions, manage this , manage that. The bigger your org the more 'work' the game becomes as is. You do not need some artificial attempt to neuter large orgs in game they carry plenty of weight the bigger they get on their own.

 

You will never 'catch up' to long standing groups that have been playing longer so long as those groups continue to operate and grow over time. Some will , some will collapse into smaller pieces because of their own bloat, and some will just wither and disappear due to bad management or personality conflicts that can't be resolved.

 

This mentality that "me and my 3 buddies should have the same level playing field with a 500 person org" is frankly grades school nonsense about not understanding life isn't always fair.

 

 

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If you dont see that orgs are breaking this game in every aspect of the game I dont know what to tell you. They need limits. Thats all there is to it in order to create any form of balance or its game over in like 5-10 months if things dont improve. Believe it or not idc.

 

Hey it used to be 15 friends at one point. Trying to build an org but people quit the game quite frequently. All im saying is my perspective. It doesnt matter if im 3 or 300 the scale and quotas of the machine scale to what you can produce. Its the only frame of refrence I have and judging by the demands im supposed to have a bare minimum of 10-25 people. We roll with the punches like everyone else. /shrug

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