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Dredger Mining Efficiency Skill Nerfed?


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12 hours ago, Leogradance said:

in my language "+ 5% ore extracted" means that what I get is more than those who don't.

 

Or is a bug - talent dont works correctly.

 

Or is it an impression (possible ... I hope ... a ninja nerf to a basic mechanic is already wrong and a very unpleasant thing).

 

Or whoever wrote it really meant a speed boost and the description needs to be changed (and lost 2kk of talent points and 2 weeks of subscribtion for something different).

As it does in mine... and in mathematics. Your second "or" is apparently right according to this below.

12 hours ago, Gottchar said:

read answers to this tweet please:

 

 

Seems that it was an intentional balancing leading to JC wanting to deliver more content... I mean wanting to slow down the fastest players.

 

 

11 hours ago, Elitez said:


-5% time to reach max sphere size skill. - Bigger sphere size will scoop more. That means Way Many More Times to scoop per hour, its like eating faster :)))

+5% max sphere size = Bigger spoon. 

TLDR: Overall....The plate is the same. You eat faster and with a bigger spoon :)

Yes... Those were the two skills that I presented and it is obvious how they work...

Just like how +5% ore extracted  means plus five percent ore extracted.

 
But how do you THEN say that +5% ore per level equates to speed? How does your curious interpretation of the skill's meaning mesh with the two skills you yourself defined identically to how they actually work, given the tweet from NQ.

 

10 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

In math there is no such thing  as "+ 5% ore extracted". Because in math 5%=5/100 = 0.05.

So if we were to exacly put +5% ore extracted we would have 4000l + 0.05l bonus = 4000.05l

 

 

This is just so wrong I can't even...

 

You even literally used 1+5/100 in the next part of your calculation.. i.e. +5%
 

 


We do not know if it really is a compound multiplier or a linear multiplier, leading to two different answers.

compound  1 * 1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05  =  (1.05)^5  = 1.276

linear: 1 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 = 1.25

but given that things like container capacity bonuses, fuel tank capacity bonuses, weight reduction, thrust bonuses etc are all linear and not compound, I'd go with the latter.
 

Heck, as mentioned by someone in the thread, it could even start from 75% of the max extraction at L0 and go  from 80% at L1,  85%, 90%, 95%, to 100% (full extraction) at L5.

This would lead to relatively larger percentage increases of 85/80 (6.25%) for L1... 90/85 (5.88%) etc... 


It would be nice to actually get OFFICIAL information in the OFFICIAL forum and not have to trawl through the morass of umbrage that is Twitter, like US citizens used to have to do to find official information until last week.

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8 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

As it does in mine... and in mathematics. Your second "or" is apparently right according to this below.

Seems that it was an intentional balancing leading to JC wanting to deliver more content... I mean wanting to slow down the fastest players.

 

 

Yes... Those were the two skills that I presented and it is obvious how they work...

Just like how +5% ore extracted  means plus five percent ore extracted.

 
But how do you THEN say that +5% ore per level equates to speed? How does your curious interpretation of the skill's meaning mesh with the two skills you yourself defined identically to how they actually work, given the tweet from NQ.

 

 

This is just so wrong I can't even...

 

You even literally used 1+5/100 in the next part of your calculation.. i.e. +5%
 

 


We do not know if it really is a compound multiplier or a linear multiplier, leading to two different answers.

compound  1 * 1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05  =  (1.05)^5  = 1.276

linear: 1 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 = 1.25

but given that things like container capacity bonuses, fuel tank capacity bonuses, weight reduction, thrust bonuses etc are all linear and not compound, I'd go with the latter.
 

Heck, as mentioned by someone in the thread, it could even start from 75% of the max extraction at L0 and go  from 80% at L1,  85%, 90%, 95%, to 100% (full extraction) at L5.

This would lead to relatively larger percentage increases of 85/80 (6.25%) for L1... 90/85 (5.88%) etc... 


It would be nice to actually get OFFICIAL information in the OFFICIAL forum and not have to trawl through the morass of umbrage that is Twitter, like US citizens used to have to do to find official information until last week.

I wonder if its possible to use like one of those raiding scripts that is for like damge parsing and convert it for ore. Not sure what to run the script off of. But seeing the other scripts that are out there its not nearly as malicious as market bots.

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7 hours ago, Warlander said:

It is intentional. I consider mining to be the root of all evil in this game.

 

  --- mega snip ---

^^This!!! It needs to be the OP of another thread. So, so true.

 

 

2 hours ago, Warlander said:

If you dont see that orgs are breaking this game in every aspect of the game I dont know what to tell you. They need limits. Thats all there is to it in order to create any form of balance or its game over in like 5-10 months if things dont improve. Believe it or not idc.

 


The problem is that planets are 10% of real size, meaning only 1% surface area and 0.1% of the volume... (That's 1/1000th of the volume for those who struggle with percentages ? ) And mining speed is so, so fast (>200L per second per person). Let's call it 10x realistic... These two multipliers mean that we are hollowing out the planets far more rapidly than in real life.

 

By this scale, 200 players mining in a single org is equivalent to 2,000,000 miners on earth, all with advanced, quantum, material-beaming mining equipment....
With a single org able to entirely map a planet out in a couple of days with TSs, you just know it's going to end badly.

But JC, as a fellow PhD, should have calculated that trivial fact as easily as I did... or even easier since he didn't have to reverse calculate a load of figures...  Heck I said before the "beta" dropped that even if we reset the planets, at the rate we were mining pre-beta we will have removed all the >T2 mats within a year and people scoffed at me, telling me I didn't understand how big the planets were... 

I said if extra players joined the "beta" and the largest orgs coordinated they could basically rape all the planets of >T2 mats within 3 months...
Strange how simple mathematical and statistical calculations actually work... Also strange that JC didn't figure that one out.

Here we are just over 3 months after "release" of the "beta" and even though most of the players appear to have quit, all the meganodes and anything T3 and above is Swiss cheese.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Holylifton said:

You're doing the math backwards from how the Mining efficiency talent actually works. If scanner results show 4000l of ore, the only way you can get the full 4000L is if you have L5 in Mining Efficiency under Dredger. 
So with no talent points you can get 4000 X 0.75 = 3000L
With L1 you can get 4000 X 0.80 = 3200L
With L2 you can get 4000 X 0.85 = 3400L
With L3 you can get 4000 X 0.90 = 3600L
With L4 you can get 4000 X 0.95 = 3800L
With L5 you can get 4000 X 1.00 = 4000L

Think about it. The scanner tells you how much ore is in the tile so it's impossible to get more than what the scanner is reporting. it's been like this since Alpha. I tested backwards and forwards at different levels in this skill. I was even able to predict how much oreI was ground to pull out of the ground based on scanner results and my level in Mining Efficiency. I also confirmed it again about a month ago. Now having said all this, I tested it today and there is something funky going on. My scanner result said there was 4608L of Limestone on a tile, I found one node and only got 4007L of Limestone. I scanned the tile again to make sure I didn't miss a little somewhere and the results show no Limestone on the tile.

 

This is a bug, not by design.


https://discord.com/channels/184691218184273920/748548528816521279/799891101317070850

This is actually funny, many ppl reported (often with screenshots) getting different percentage of extra ore, we couldn't find a good explanation on how the +% was applied on the scan result but at least we agreed we were getting more ore then the scan showed.

If your test and your math are reliable the only explanation possible is that the scan results are not accurate.

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17 hours ago, Gottchar said:

read answers to this tweet please:

 

 

And here is what NQ replied.

Quote

The changes made to the industries/mining were put in place to balance the game and stabilize the amount of "rich" players that run organizations compared to single players that would need to grind for months and months on their own. This will have a positive impact on the game.

Are they really this far removed from actual game play, that they think this is a good change that will help single players?

Nerfing industry and mining was an inconvenience for large orgs, but for single players it is catastrophic. Single players are now unable to build the industry needed to be self sufficient and have the resources to explore other aspects of the game. And as a result are now stuck doing mining and nothing else just to get by with the bare essentials.

 

This did not help single players, it destroyed the game for single players..

 

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17 hours ago, Warlander said:

Really anyone can test it out for themselves regardless of tier. You just have to take a scan and watch out for the nodes that cross tiles and account for that. If you get more then the tile says it does then its working as intended.

Unfortunately this is not the case. I've been at Tier 4 of this skill for ages. The reported scanned amount (for easy-to-monitor high tier ore nowhere near edges of the tile) can be both substantially under and substantially over the actual mined amount. Really, the only conclusion that I have is that the reported ore in the scan is just plain wrong, as I never get a consistent mined-ore/scanned-ore proportion. So we can't even tell if its +5% ore, or +1% ore or even -1% ore per tier.

 

Very unhappy with this skill in particular and the number consistency in the game in general.

 

Really, if NQ can't even be bothered to inform us what the talent actually does, the only way for us to know is to collect mined-ammount/reported-amount & skill level for a large-ish number of tiles (of non-edge ore), and see what we get. The data won't lie (and data recording like this has busted errors and lies in other games).

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9 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

Heck, as mentioned by someone in the thread, it could even start from 75% of the max extraction at L0 and go  from 80% at L1,  85%, 90%, 95%, to 100% (full extraction) at L5.

This would lead to relatively larger percentage increases of 85/80 (6.25%) for L1... 90/85 (5.88%) etc... 

Look, at some point, container range(and other talents) was calculated in the way I expressed. Maybe they changed it.

What I'm saying is that "+5%" notation is simply bad and can lead to a lot of miss interpretation.

You can see some of this bad interpretation here in this forum.

 

One clear example is that 75%...

 

So lets say they did it in your way: 100% + 5%*level.

This leads to 1.25 or 125%

But the inverse of 125%, 1/1.25 is not 0.75 or 75%..... it is 80%.


 125% of 4000 is 5000

  80% of 5000 is 4000

 

  75% of 5000 is 3750

 

So doing the reverse operation we get:

Minned_with_out_talent = quantity_scanned * 0.8

 

This is the problem with that +X% notation. PPL tend to think that they can do -X%  to reverse it. They fail to understand that it is a multiplication and not a sum.

125% of a quantity is not the inverse of 75% of that quantity.

 

So I urge all (NQ inclusive) to stop using "+5%" and start  using "105%"  !

That way ppl will understand it's a multiplication and not a sum.

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On 1/18/2021 at 4:33 AM, Fra119 said:

This is from this morning, as you can see i mined 3196l out of a 2624l node, i have mining efficiency lvl 3, so15% increase, instead it came out slightly more than 20% additional ore. I'd say that either the talent is completely bugged or the additional amount comes from a scanner miscalculation/bad approximation and the talent is simply giving you more ore per click.

 

Btw, considering how much a miner mines this talent is still a benefit, ofc there are better talents to be taken before this.

 

 

mine.jpg


So what this suggests is that the skill is only broken for some?

 

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16 minutes ago, Billy_Boola said:


So what this suggests is that the skill is only broken for some?

 

This alone doesn't suggest anything, it's just my observation, but given how different were all the observations we gathered here I'd say that probably the scanner is the one who's broken.

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Given how sloppy this game handles rounding. I always thought the mining result might be a rounding error. After all you mine a voxel with a sphere. If I should guess I would say the scanner result is the voxel volume for the node and every time you pick a chunk out of the node there is a rounding error where the difference in ore just gets removed and not moved to the adjacent voxels. It all also depends on the 'mining technique'  ( for a lack of other term) when you always mine the little 'holes' you also get the most out of the node - compared to just mine along chunk by chunk. 

 

So I would say it is indeed +25% but you never can get it because of the rounding errors. This could explain the different mining results for everyone (+ and - .. of the scan result) . 

 

I thought I throw it in here, maybe someone has a thought on it.

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I also think that there is a bit of variance in the node amounts as well that could also appear like you are getting less as well since I think the smallest node I ran into was like 1,300L that was pristine and completely unmined to the normal 4,000KL ish standard which could also be +/- 4000kl. So the effort can seem like you should be getting more than you are since the node does not specify the full amount contained which could differ per node.

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On 1/18/2021 at 9:10 AM, CptLoRes said:

 

This did not help single players, it destroyed the game for single players..

 

Nothing to add there, not only did it do that but it helped the larger ones or the rich people to get even richer. But that was intentional, so probably there is a good reason they want the rich people or large orgs to flourish, when there is smoke...  Well, probably that is also the reason some players somehow have information prior to all others, and thats a real game killer.

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46 minutes ago, Aaron Cain said:

Nothing to add there, not only did it do that but it helped the larger ones or the rich people to get even richer. But that was intentional, so probably there is a good reason they want the rich people or large orgs to flourish, when there is smoke...  Well, probably that is also the reason some players somehow have information prior to all others, and thats a real game killer.

NQ needs to chop from the top and not target players in the middle or bottom of the progression. Little barriers or hurdles to jump sure. But you never want to target new players ever or prevent upward momentum for mid orgs to become large orgs through upward mobility. You need to chop from the top beecause they have everything and break every mechanic they touch because JC wants to break the game just that much faster or now that he has set a prescident to catering to large orgs nothing else can change for the better unless they give orgs limits, higher than average scaling costs, industry upkeep, higher tax rates, TU land taxes based on number of TUs, machine upkeep, and a lot more. It should not be some free ride gravytrain with JC as the conductor.

 

Until then the rich get richer and JC punishes everyone else for playing this game.

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On 1/18/2021 at 8:10 AM, CptLoRes said:

Nerfing industry and mining was an inconvenience for large orgs, but for single players it is catastrophic. Single players are now unable to build the industry needed to be self sufficient and have the resources to explore other aspects of the game. And as a result are now stuck doing mining and nothing else just to get by with the bare essentials

 

Ever thought that NQ dont was solo players to be 'self sufficient' they might want them to have to engage with the community / civilisation.  The issue i have here is why everyone thinks they are competing in a game where we are supposed to be working together to build something?

Also why does everyone act like you HAVE to mine in this game, I know loads of people enjoying the game who rarely mine.  They buy ore from miners.

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4 minutes ago, Moosegun said:

Ever thought that NQ dont was solo players to be 'self sufficient' they might want them to have to engage with the community / civilisation.  The issue i have here is why everyone thinks they are competing in a game where we are supposed to be working together to build something?

Also why does everyone act like you HAVE to mine in this game, I know loads of people enjoying the game who rarely mine.  They buy ore from miners.

Its the lack of choice that is the heart of the issue.

 

You arent really even given enough self sufficiency through division of talents to even start as a solo player and build a community from the ground up. Instead NQ arbitrarily decides you arent allowed to do that and you need 10-25 people to have a ok-semi good time to progress. If you cant build a base, industry, fly, or mine your way to building something players would want to collaborate or work together on then your only choice is to join a large org then build your own. Who wants to join a ground up full list of projects needed to get an org going vs a pre-established mid-mega org? They do everything better and more efficient.

 

Its not impossible to do its just a lot more work then you can expect people to be invested in to get an org off the ground.

 

Me personally seeing how much NQ hates me and wants to punish me for playing in a small group just makes me not want to fit into NQs mold since its not a faction I can support on my own terms its a forced select group of guilds that dictate everything to you. Im not cool with that and im still inching towards the goal of getting to that point where we are a mid size guild despite NQ and how much they stack up against the way I play. Or how much NQ does not understand about MMO gamers in general with well established social norms players should have every right to play as they want to. You cant do that in pretty much 90% of the aspects of this game currently. Applying more pressure to join the zerg borg factions does not appeal to me in this game.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Warlander said:

Its the lack of choice that is the heart of the issue.

 

You arent really even given enough self sufficiency through division of talents to even start as a solo player and build a community from the ground up. Instead NQ arbitrarily decides you arent allowed to do that and you need 10-25 people to have a ok-semi good time to progress. If you cant build a base, industry, fly, or mine your way to building something players would want to collaborate or work together on then your only choice is to join a large org then build your own. Who wants to join a ground up full list of projects needed to get an org going vs a pre-established mid-mega org? They do everything better and more efficient.

 

Its not impossible to do its just a lot more work then you can expect people to be invested in to get an org off the ground.

 

Me personally seeing how much NQ hates me and wants to punish me for playing in a small group just makes me not want to fit into NQs mold since its not a faction I can support on my own terms its a forced select group of guilds that dictate everything to you. Im not cool with that and im still inching towards the goal of getting to that point where we are a mid size guild despite NQ and how much they stack up against the way I play. Or how much NQ does not understand about MMO gamers in general with well established social norms players should have every right to play as they want to. You cant do that in pretty much 90% of the aspects of this game currently. Applying more pressure to join the zerg borg factions does not appeal to me in this game.

 

 

Going to pull you up on the 'players should have every right to play as they want to' comment, for me it is complete horse shit.  You have the right to play the game that the developers want to make, if you dont like it, then you have the right to move on.  You do not have the right to divert a game from its agreed paths to suit your requirements.  Just like I dont have the right to go into the farmville forum and demand PvP, because I want to play that way.  Not sure why game design is the only form of entertainment where the audience feels they have some given right to mess with the creator vision.

I run a very successful small org myself (basically two of us do most of it), got no idea what all these barriers are you seem to be coming across.  Unless you are trying to make EVERYTHING yourself. Not sure there is anything i want to do ingame at the moment, which i cant do, short of owning a warp beacon.

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Quote from the kickstarter.

Quote

In Dual Universe, you can for example:

  • Build a giant space station the size of a moon with your friends
  • Create an intergalactic political Empire
  • Gather along with thousands of others in player-made cities
  • Get hundreds of players inside space exploring ships
  • Mass-produce your custom designed ships to sell them in-game
  • Become a trader, a logistician or an industrialist
  • Program complex behaviors for your constructions
  • Live in a secret base 1km underground on a remote moon
  • Make a name as a spaceship designer or outpost architect

In other words, in Dual Universe, you can invent a new life for yourself in a world without limits, where almost anything is possible. We aim to make a massively multiplayer roleplaying sandbox on PC like never seen before.

So the problem isn't that players are trying to force the game into something else, and more that the DU roadmap is changing into something that looks less and less like what was promised.

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On 1/20/2021 at 5:19 AM, Moosegun said:

Ever thought that NQ dont was solo players to be 'self sufficient' they might want them to have to engage with the community / civilisation.  The issue i have here is why everyone thinks they are competing in a game where we are supposed to be working together to build something?

Also why does everyone act like you HAVE to mine in this game, I know loads of people enjoying the game who rarely mine.  They buy ore from miners.

Why sell ore to a miner for less than the bots will buy it?  So to buy ore you need to pay more than the bots pay, how to then to get money?  Making stuff and selling it?  Players are already selling lots of items for less than their ore costs, so how can you survive buying high and selling low?

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1 hour ago, Bobbie said:

Point being, when push comes to shove, everyone knows EXACTLY what it means.

Sure every one knows what 5% is, in a single level. 

But how about level 2?

Do we add 10% to the level 0?

Or do we add 5% to level 1?

 

Let me give you examples. lets say 4000 base:

 

Level 1 = 4000 + 200 = 4200. (Up to here, no doubt.) 

 

Level 2 = 4000 + 200 + 200 = 4400 ? 

Or

Level 2 = Level1 + 5%Level1= 4200 + 210 = 4410?

 

4th grade mathematics says its 4000 + 10% of 4000.

But game logic says you gain 5% per level, and its a assumed its 5% on top of the previous level. 

 

When your boss tells you that you will get a 5% raise, he is not talking 5% relative to your 1st paycheck on the company he is talking about about 5% increase relative to your current value. 

 

Do you see the issue? Do you see how your "EXACTLY" is just a product of you not paying proper atention on what i said? 

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Coming from WoW I'd say you should treat it like a 5 points talent, you start with a bonus pool of 0 and each point adds 5% up to a total of 25%, so additive and not multiplicative.

But I agree they should be more specific about it. 

 

Also it doesn't say if that +x% is calculated before the extraction (so it's calculated on your mining sphere, and it will just give you more ore per click) or after the extraction (so it's extra ore). It's a huge difference, like the difference between +x% base damage and +% damage.

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