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whats wrong & how to fix


Kill Code

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6 hours ago, Xennial said:

They should never have removed non-pvp element destruction, that seems obvious to everyone I talk to except NQ and the whiners that their ship was destroyed by a bug. While I sympathize with losing element life to a crash, bug , etc we are playing Beta so people should be told to just suck it up. Most likely most of these instances of rage were people flying ships that far surpassed their ability to maintain.

 

I disagree. PvE element destruction was a terrible idea and would ruin the new player experience as they learned the game, crashing and all. If they'd implemented it just after I joined, I'd uninstall and be asking for a refund. There needs to be balance or the game is going to suck. A game that sucks is a game without subs. A game without subs is a dead game. Also, the more play-styles an MMO caters to, the more players/subs and content there will be.

 

Honestly, PvE destruction was why I grounded all of my ships and pretty much quit playing, before my sub ran out. If I ever renew, it will be because the PvE perma-death of cores is gone.

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12 hours ago, NoRezervationz said:

I disagree. PvE element destruction was a terrible idea and would ruin the new player experience as they learned the game, crashing and all. If they'd implemented it just after I joined, I'd uninstall and be asking for a refund. There needs to be balance or the game is going to suck. A game that sucks is a game without subs. A game without subs is a dead game. Also, the more play-styles an MMO caters to, the more players/subs and content there will be.

 

Honestly, PvE destruction was why I grounded all of my ships and pretty much quit playing, before my sub ran out. If I ever renew, it will be because the PvE perma-death of cores is gone.

It was litterally the only thing taking items out of the game even if they had a 1-3-5 lifespan.

 

New players should not be expected to be graduates from the airforce upon their arrival to the game sure but within reason obviously.

 

If Basic parts had an across the board 25 lives that is not game breaking but still allows plenty of use for newbies who still have to repair.

If Advanced parts had 20 lives it does not break the game but still allows for enough useage to get your monies worth.

But it should go down to 10 for rare and 5 for unique so you still get use out of unique parts.

 

You need item turnover to some degree. I think the DE system was a little harsh but its the only thing currently that takes out items from players and keeps the market going rather than nobody buying anything because they either make it and dont need to buy anything or they only can repair items. Personally I dont like the sink it creates but it is absolutely necessary for the market to move beyond refined ore as the real bot traded currency while they trade endlessly back and fourth buying and selling to manipulate the market for themselves to destroy everyone elses buying power. I dont see why they are allowed to exist or they arent being banned for exploiting the market downwards but also upwards when they want to make more money.

 

It just makes everything else pointless but also that its hella grindy and drawn out for just a handful of crafting stations that require hundreds of inventory containers. There really isnt much to the system in MMO terms that does not even have a mini game, feeders, packers, and jobs for a lack of a better word that requires active participation rather than full on automation once you press start.

 

Anyhow there is nothing wrong in NQ forcing people to learn to fly. The problem is the crippling talent system that prevents everything from happening.

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On 1/15/2021 at 2:32 PM, Maxim Kammerer said:

Without enough Quanta circulating you can wait forever for your products to be sold. Even with bots as source of cash there is currently no chance to get 4x the ore sales value. With a lot of products you can't even make profit at all because they have market prices far below their ore sales value.

 

That is wrong in theory (with money sinks (e.g. schematics) there must be corresponding sources for cash) and in practice (deflation is still ongoing).

Complete rubbish, you are falling for the foolish notion that people buy from the cheapest source, A LOT OF THEM DONT, they buy from the closest source.  I have sold large atmos for 400k, when you can buy them for 100k a few kilometers away.  If you are basing whether you can sell something on the lowest price on all markets, you are doing it massively wrong. The billion+ quanta of market sales I have made confirms that.

Here is a days worth of sales from back when i was trading, EVERYTHING on this list was sold at 3-4 times ore value.

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On 1/15/2021 at 3:21 PM, fiddlybits said:

This is not true for games because money/assets frequently go out of circulation when players stop playing. Beyond that, DU has money sinks when buying from bots which remove quanta from the game.

 

The daily quanta is only given to people who log in, it is a quanta faucet that scales with the players base, and as this stage is the best way to manage injection of quanta.  Ore bots are cause horrific damage to the game, and encourage very short term solo gameplay loops, as opposed to gameplay loops which help the game / economy, such as actually making worthwhile products and selling them to players.

 

On 1/17/2021 at 3:50 AM, Kill Code said:

DID YOU KNOW!?!

 

EvE a game that has a player driven economy and has been around for more then 10 years, STILL HAS BOTS!?! that buy stuff!!!   What!!! yea its true!


But why?

Because in a game economy there is a lot of stuff players can make that other players will rarely ever buy.  And over time after more and more players are building more stuff there is never enough demand to buy many constructed items.   Also time locked skills... New players dont enter the game and immediately have access to build everything in the game so they cant simply plug the holes in the market as a natural market would dictate, so what then?  You want to tell new players 6 months from now that if they want to get into building stuff first they need to train building skills for 1 year just to compete with older players on building end game top tier elements because the low tier stuff is market flooded and worthless?  And since players will always use less produced goods then are produced the market will fall into free fall and much like EvE was for many years (before a revamp)  players will find that it costs more money to produce an item then raw ore is worth just to sell.


Consider this: A single player (player A) could buy minerals off the market at "player set prices" or mine them ( you know mining yourself vs buying ore at player set prices has no difference when you are calculating the worth of producing a product) and then from there construct 1000's of ML of honey comb to put on the market.  Then another single player (player B ) would buy that honeycomb to construct a ship... But never buy honeycomb again to construct another ship for maybe say a month?  Meanwhile player A (and other players like him) continue to build more honey comb and put it on the market.  There will never be more demand for honeycomb then the player base will supply.  And due to the fact that players have to skill into producing items low tier honeycomb will be all they can produce so they will forever be far more supply then demand.

 

So as of right now and the foreseeable future there are only a few ways to make money, mine ore, or sell produced stuff on the market.  Given only those 2 options there will forever be more demand then supply,  or the market will be so broken as it is now people wont even bother to build stuff and sell it.

You do realise a new player can come into the game and turn their day 1 money into millions JUST from buying cheap products and moving them to other markets?   The issue here is that NQ gave so many get quanta instantly options (such as ore buy bots) that most players have never looked at the alternative.  Why bother making products, listing them and waiting for them to sell (even if you make LOADS more money), when i can just sell instantly to a bot.  NQ has made a rod for its own back with this one, it has introduced gameplay options which allow people to completely bypass the 'player made' element of the player made economy.

 

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37 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

I believe it when I see it. Since 0.23 I didn't sell anything 50 % above ore value. Most wares don't even sell below ore value.

Sorry forgot the link..... 

 granted this was pre patch, not been trading as much since.  Got loads of stock so would be up for doing a test.  Geniunely interested in what my sales would be if I pushed it again.

Notice, I sold a lot of different stuff at a lot of different places......

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4 hours ago, Moosegun said:

The daily quanta is only given to people who log in, it is a quanta faucet that scales with the players base, and as this stage is the best way to manage injection of quanta.  Ore bots are cause horrific damage to the game, and encourage very short term solo gameplay loops, as opposed to gameplay loops which help the game / economy, such as actually making worthwhile products and selling them to players.

Only NQ can answer if the daily login alone is enough "fresh currency" to avoid deflation...keeping in mind that the player base is churning (hard), not growing -- and each player that quits takes how many days of login cash with them into oblivion...? 

 

It is really absurdly baffling that NQ hasn't thought about the economy...like at all. 

 

I've never even heard of an MMO that lacks a way to print currency, but here we are. 

 

Considering how easy this test would be, I agree that they should rip out ore bots and see how it impacts the economy. If it really isn't working after a week or two, just put them back...

 

Frankly, I've given up trying to figure out what NQ's devs actually do all day.

 

It's been almost 5 months and there's been no major updates...yet somehow the game will be release ready by end of year...when they don't even know the basics of how freakin' currency works?!

 

But sure, keep spending time on those wonderful events -- gotta earn those 4,000 youtube views somewhere, right? 

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Before the patch I was receiving 200-220 notifications/24 hours most of them in Thades 1, I didn't even sell cosmetics or small items just all the L,XL (t1,t2) territories of the aggs warp cells scanners you know the deal. I was selling about 60M a day in products. After the patch while Christmas lasted it went down to 140-160 (I added a lot of small parts). Right now I'm at 60-80 and my ore orders take a long time to complete in my market, so I have to go  Allioth to get the cheapest ore orders I can buy from Thades.

 

The upgrade tried to increase the activity in the markets, but now they are worse than ever because most of the people left or no longer have anything to grind for. Allioth still has some activity because of the new players.

 

This update did not add any content and there is none planned for 5 or 6 months  and now we are seeing the real impacts of the update and it does not look good. , hard times ahead.

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29 minutes ago, Hiturn said:

Before the patch I was receiving 200-220 notifications/24 hours most of them in Thades 1, I didn't even sell cosmetics or small items just all the L,XL (t1,t2) territories of the aggs warp cells scanners you know the deal. I was selling about 60M a day in products. After the patch while Christmas lasted it went down to 140-160 (I added a lot of small parts). Right now I'm at 60-80 and my ore orders take a long time to complete in my market, so I have to go  Allioth to get the cheapest ore orders I can buy from Thades.

 

The upgrade tried to increase the activity in the markets, but now they are worse than ever because most of the people left or no longer have anything to grind for. Allioth still has some activity because of the new players.

 

This update did not add any content and there is none planned for 5 or 6 months  and now we are seeing the real impacts of the update and it does not look good. , hard times ahead.

Ok, but isnt this part of the problem.  Players like you and I were trying to fill the markets producing stuff that sells but 80% of the playerbase were mining and either selling to bots or making shit products and selling to bots.  FFS you were doing that on THADES!!! Yet most players couldnt work out to do it on Alioth lol

I have sold all sorts, from ship parts, alloys, parts, everything in the game..... it all sold to some extent.  Just not many people chose to sell it.  For some reason they all looked at the lowest price in the universe and decided they couldnt compete, because they do not understand market forces (namely people are lazy).

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41 minutes ago, Hiturn said:

This update did not add any content and there is none planned for 5 or 6 months  and now we are seeing the real impacts of the update and it does not look good. , hard times ahead.

A lot of people talk about how DU is "dead" or "dying".

 

Unfortunately, I think that the few objective numbers we have tend to back up that claim.

 

I don't think there's been a singular "mass exodus" but a slow and steady churn:   

  • 8 months ago (official trailer)
    1.6 Million Views
  • 7 months ago (pvp trailer)
    742k views
  • 4 months ago (beta trailer)
    659k views
  • 2 months ago (official building trailer)
    167k views
  • 3 weeks ago (DU: a look ahead)
    10k views
  • 1 week ago (DU Lost in transit event)
    <5k views
  • Reddit
    ~50 people online on average, 8k total members, low engagement 
  • Twitter
    15k followers, low tweet engagement all around  
     

I get that many people don't use social networking at all...but a growing game has a growing social presence...certainly not a shrinking one.  

 

Also, NQ no longer has any job postings -- maybe they filled them all (in which case dev should be going faster lol) or maybe they realize their runway isn't going to last for as long as they first expected. 

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1 hour ago, Hiturn said:

Before the patch I was receiving 200-220 notifications/24 hours most of them in Thades 1, I didn't even sell cosmetics or small items just all the L,XL (t1,t2) territories of the aggs warp cells scanners you know the deal. I was selling about 60M a day in products. After the patch while Christmas lasted it went down to 140-160 (I added a lot of small parts). Right now I'm at 60-80 and my ore orders take a long time to complete in my market, so I have to go  Allioth to get the cheapest ore orders I can buy from Thades.

 

The upgrade tried to increase the activity in the markets, but now they are worse than ever because most of the people left or no longer have anything to grind for. Allioth still has some activity because of the new players.

 

This update did not add any content and there is none planned for 5 or 6 months  and now we are seeing the real impacts of the update and it does not look good. , hard times ahead.

It is entirely likely pre patch a lot of the buying of products was bots. We will never know since the market does not give us any information.

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1 hour ago, michaelk said:

A lot of people talk about how DU is "dead" or "dying".

 

Unfortunately, I think that the few objective numbers we have tend to back up that claim.

 

I don't think there's been a singular "mass exodus" but a slow and steady churn:   

  • 8 months ago (official trailer)
    1.6 Million Views
  • 7 months ago (pvp trailer)
    742k views
  • 4 months ago (beta trailer)
    659k views
  • 2 months ago (official building trailer)
    167k views
  • 3 weeks ago (DU: a look ahead)
    10k views
  • 1 week ago (DU Lost in transit event)
    <5k views
  • Reddit
    ~50 people online on average, 8k total members, low engagement 
  • Twitter
    15k followers, low tweet engagement all around  
     

I get that many people don't use social networking at all...but a growing game has a growing social presence...certainly not a shrinking one.  

 

Also, NQ no longer has any job postings -- maybe they filled them all (in which case dev should be going faster lol) or maybe they realize their runway isn't going to last for as long as they first expected. 

This looks pretty bad.

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9 hours ago, michaelk said:

A lot of people talk about how DU is "dead" or "dying".

 

Unfortunately, I think that the few objective numbers we have tend to back up that claim.

 

I don't think there's been a singular "mass exodus" but a slow and steady churn:   

  • 8 months ago (official trailer)
    1.6 Million Views
  • 7 months ago (pvp trailer)
    742k views
  • 4 months ago (beta trailer)
    659k views
  • 2 months ago (official building trailer)
    167k views
  • 3 weeks ago (DU: a look ahead)
    10k views
  • 1 week ago (DU Lost in transit event)
    <5k views
  • Reddit
    ~50 people online on average, 8k total members, low engagement 
  • Twitter
    15k followers, low tweet engagement all around  
     

I get that many people don't use social networking at all...but a growing game has a growing social presence...certainly not a shrinking one.  

 

Also, NQ no longer has any job postings -- maybe they filled them all (in which case dev should be going faster lol) or maybe they realize their runway isn't going to last for as long as they first expected. 

A bit disappointed with this Michael, you post a lot of thought provoking content on here, which I might not always agree with but it does normally lead me to believe you might have some background in the industry and a genuine level of knowledge.  Then you post something like this, which shows your grasp of digital marketing is rudimentary at best.  Let me explain a couple of things to you.

- Videos on YouTube always get more visitors over time, the longer video are live, the more visits they will get.  So you are basically showing something which is a self fulfilling prophecy.  Older videos will in general have more visit than newer ones. 
- I would presume that 80% of the visitors to these video came via advertising spend, not organically.  As you and I have no idea of the advertising budgets within NQ or how things are prioritised.  This means these figures are worthless for trying to prove anything.

The fact that you have taken these stats and come to the conclusion you have is a bit worrying.  Either this was a genuine mistake or you are just trying to post stuff to make NQ look bad, regardless of whether or not it has any fact.

Do yourself a favour though, stick to stuff you actually understand, going out of your comfort zone leads to you being found out.

Seriously, I do this stuff for a living, and if i presented those conclusions to one of my clients, they would probably fire me on the spot.

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6 hours ago, tool66 said:

Hey I need help they took fetch out so how do you get your ships now that are stuck in the air .......i have lost everything cause of this patch so bad

How did your ship get stuck in the air?   I could have a guess.......

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dc, alt f4, trying to refuel and fell off, bug, bug bug.   frankly I am gratefull to see my ships parked everyday although progression is slow. and thanks Moosegun for still selling stuff, I am one of the few that actually is looking for some of the non regular components :D

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7 hours ago, Moosegun said:

Let me explain a couple of things to you.

  1. There's no social growth, like at all. Twitter, Reddit -- no one is talking about DU or engaging with DU's content. That's objectively bad. If the game were growing, so would social channels. They aren't. 
  2. If only paid videos get views, this again underscores a lack of organic reach. Growing games have organic reach because people are actually interested in watching their updates/videos beyond paid advertising. 
  3. I get that video views tend to increase over time (but not "always", not in significant numbers) -- and that I don't have real metrics. I'm not trying to "pitch to a client".
  4. Look at the actual context of the "event" videos. <5,000 people actually viewed the most recent event, despite NQ's email blast. Their email blast either has no reach or people aren't remotely interested in this content. There's no reason for this sort of video to grow in views over time as a one-off event -- the views they got in the first week are the views they can get through organic reach, which is truly awful. 
  5. ...is your argument that DU's dismally stagnant social channels means very little and the game really is growing? Obviously I don't have access to real information or stats, but seems like I'm still right: there's low engagement all around and DU is not getting more popular. It doesn't take an "industry expert" to see no growth across major social channels and conclude "things aren't great". 
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33 minutes ago, michaelk said:
  1. There's no social growth, like at all. Twitter, Reddit -- no one is talking about DU or engaging with DU's content. That's objectively bad. If the game were growing, so would social channels. They aren't. 
  2. If only paid videos get views, this again underscores a lack of organic reach. Growing games have organic reach because people are actually interested in watching their updates/videos beyond paid advertising. 
  3. I get that video views tend to increase over time (but not "always", not in significant numbers) -- and that I don't have real metrics. I'm not trying to "pitch to a client".
  4. Look at the actual context of the "event" videos. <5,000 people actually viewed the most recent event, despite NQ's email blast. Their email blast either has no reach or people aren't remotely interested in this content. There's no reason for this sort of video to grow in views over time as a one-off event -- the views they got in the first week are the views they can get through organic reach, which is truly awful. 
  5. ...is your argument that DU's dismally stagnant social channels means very little and the game really is growing? Obviously I don't have access to real information or stats, but seems like I'm still right: there's low engagement all around and DU is not getting more popular. It doesn't take an "industry expert" to see no growth across major social channels and conclude "things aren't great". 

To be honest, those point are far more valid than your original set of stats.  That wouldnt surprise me given where the game is though, the big push for the game was BETA launch, only they know where they are as far as their targets.  For all we know they are happy with the number of players for where the state of the game is.  They have one big luxury, all my anecdotal evidence says to me that even when people leave the game, a big chunk of them continue to monitor the game.  So if NQ can get it right, and I actually think there are some pretty simple ways they can fix a lot of the issues, then the game can move forward.  I do find a lot of your content overly negative though.  Like you are trying to beat the horse to death, rather than take it to water.  Might just be I am a more positive soul I suppose.

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26 minutes ago, Moosegun said:

I do find a lot of your content overly negative though.  Like you are trying to beat the horse to death, rather than take it to water.  Might just be I am a more positive soul I suppose.

This is probably true. I think I'm especially biased against JC.

 

It's just something about a PHD jumping straight into an MMO as their first ever game project and having a (perceived) lack of humility about the whole thing. I've said before that I can imagine exactly what sort of person JC is based on his titles ("CEO/Founder/Creative Director/phD"). Right or wrong, my opinion is that his leadership is a big driver of the game's issues -- and see it as an unsolvable problem because it's his company and he won't step aside to let more seasoned vets lead.

 

I also think NQ has run into some bad luck with their rollout -- there's no rulebook for how to launch a product during an unprecedented global lockdown where people are generally more pissed-off about everything. Sure people are consuming more digital media...but they're also losing their jobs or not finding work, which hurts subscription-based luxuries like DU. 

1 hour ago, Moosegun said:

They have one big luxury, all my anecdotal evidence says to me that even when people leave the game, a big chunk of them continue to monitor the game.

I 100% agree with this...there's a lot of people that are so hooked on the premise of DU and its very real potential. I'm sure some of the negativity comes from this fact, too -- after following the project for so long and being fairly hyped for beta, it is disappointing to see the actual product. 

 

Honestly I should try to be more positive -- I don't just come around to talk shit and I hope everyone realizes that it's 100,000x easier to criticize something than to actually do it. 

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1 hour ago, michaelk said:

This is probably true. I think I'm especially biased against JC.

 

... interesting points ......

 

Honestly I should try to be more positive -- I don't just come around to talk shit and I hope everyone realizes that it's 100,000x easier to criticize something than to actually do it. 

Probably one of the most positive things you have said on here lol.  I think it is a tone that suits you, you are clearly a bright bloke, with a lot of knowledge.  I have no issue with people criticizing the game, i have done it myself for many years. I just try to find the solutions, rather than hammering on about the problems / causes.

Personally i do see the light at the end of the tunnel (although it could be a train)............

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