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16 hours ago, Moosegun said:

Hate to break it to you, we have already had the building phase where loads of player have got everything they need to play for years.  Things like missions systems etc are supposed to be coming soon, and then hopefully more of the wealth generated can be passed to other people. via the methods you mention above.

 

Do you understand you just made an argument for a wipe not one against? 

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10 hours ago, Warlander said:

The mission system will only serve to bait people into pvp or to pay cut rate missions. You arent going to pay more than something is worth and the ones that seem worth it are liely going to be traps. If suddenly there are quests to transport anyone can do that. Missions to mine anyone can already do in a bot run market. PvP when you can already do that. Build when you can already do what it seek to achieve. The system changes nothing. The only reason for it is to pay people less then you would pay for it on the market or to exploit someone to their death for quick profit. JC even said so much on one of the live streams.

 

....

 

SO is it worth it? Its what is going to happen. Kill off the game to make the neglected bastard children pvpers you brought in or keep the people who make and build and mine everything happy who make up the 75+% happy and continueing to play? This is a crafting game after all. If it werent then PvP would be more of a thing then the PvP community figuring out how best to kill off the rest of the game by stipping protections piece by piece and nobody wanting to enguage them and if they could there is no defenses to stop it. Nobody wanting to PvP in a supposed PvP game is not a good sign and an indicator of how badly designed this game is. There is no one thing you cant point at where the system is broken and going the wrong direction. Or that fixing any of it pretty much requires a complete direction shift to make it approachable to anyone. Designing a grind sink to defeat a player from lack of content is not a game at all. At best we have a home business sim with some muggers added to spice things up. There is no reason for the muggers to exist in the scenerio being there its just for show.

Wasnt going to bother commenting on this paranoid negative rubbish, but cant resist.........  you have no concept of the original game concept at all, it is completely void from your argument.  Literally a wall of text to support your our idea of what the game should be, a game that caters just for you.

You talk about you own ideas and opinions as if they are somehow fact.  Possibly one of the most bias and self serving things i have seen on this forum for some time.  You include stats bases on nothing but figures you have pulled from your backside.

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13 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

I think the theory is that if there is a high demand, and no supply, the value of ore will increase to the point that the potential profit is enough of an incentive for people to go out and mine.

The value of ore is fixed by bot orders. It can't depend on demand as long as selling ore to bots is the major source of cash.

13 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

Eventually there will be enough ore, and the prices will drop, and then maybe almost no one will mine for a while.

You still don't see the problem. The major role of mining is not ore supply but generation of cash. If almost no one would mine for a while the economy would run out of cash and collapse.

13 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

The missing puzzle piece right now is Demand, not supply.

The missing puzzle pieces are additional ways to inject cash into the game.

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1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

The value of ore is fixed by bot orders. It can't depend on demand as long as selling ore to bots is the major source of cash.

You still don't see the problem. The major role of mining is not ore supply but generation of cash. If almost no one would mine for a while the economy would run out of cash and collapse.

The missing puzzle pieces are additional ways to inject cash into the game.

Ore bots have destroyed any chance of a real player made economy, they are a closed gameplay loop which encourages players to sell a finite commodity for the lowest possible value, removing it from the game.  It gives players an easy options to get quanta, whilst completely bypassing the player community.  The only slight benefits to the player is that it is the payment is instant and most players are too lazy, to turn the ore in to actual products and wait for them to be sold (making as much as 4x) the ore sales value.

Your points about economy collapsing are also floored, you DO NOT need a constant influx of money to keep an economy viable, there is enough quanta in circulation at the moment if it was actually traded between players.

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3 hours ago, Moosegun said:

Wasnt going to bother commenting on this paranoid negative rubbish, but cant resist.........  you have no concept of the original game concept at all, it is completely void from your argument.  Literally a wall of text to support your our idea of what the game should be, a game that caters just for you.

You talk about you own ideas and opinions as if they are somehow fact.  Possibly one of the most bias and self serving things i have seen on this forum for some time.  You include stats bases on nothing but figures you have pulled from your backside.

Everyone has a bias. You are exerting yours right now, tuche!

 

Ill never apologize or stop voicing my concerns. Ive played pretty much all the best and worst this industry had to offer over the last 20+ years. During that time I have seen the best successes and worst failures as well. Ive been in many alpha/beta tests as well during that time. Ive been in all types of elite guilds, raiding guilds, and any playstyle in between. I have a pretty firm grasp and a good track record of knowing what works and what doesn't overall to achieve success and the pitfalls most studios could avoid. I know a lemon when I see one. I know all the tricks in the book now that studios use to stall, lie, cash grab, or keep games rolling. And I can tell when a studio is about to run off a cliff. Why because ive seen it in action many times. The game might change, the genre might change, the style might change, but in the end its pretty much the same wether its a AAA studio or an Indie studio the only difference is team size and budget in terms of scale.

 

Im part of a gaming community of hardcore PvPers in the 100s and none of them will touch this game with a 10ft pole because its not a PvP game. I dont care if they dont play its just the facts. My best friend is part of another top tier rading guild that destroys games and especially PvP games and they tried this game and wont come back because its not a PvP game. Many who try this game will never play it again. That is a huge problem. You might see it that way but it is. Why? BC there is no good or meaningful PvP to be had here.

 

What I do know is the moment they opened the doors that was their real launch with whatever they had developed. This perpetual beta experience is doing no service for the image of this game starting day 1 of POBT. And if NQ thinks there will be some huge launch without drastic change the people who will play this game are most likely already here already and dropping like flies. Why? BAD GAME DESIGN. Its the same fallicy that Chronicles of Elyria went through where they thought that their huge hyped land sale was going to save them yet I warned them it wouldnt since the people who wanted to buy in already did and besides they sold $90 mayor packs and everyone who was going to buy did so already. So when their bad design killed the sale it killed the game because it wasnt the fundraiser they expected. Its kind of a similar story here since they rely on subs while chasing off new players and existing players with bad game design.

 

Sure its hard to hear that the game you like so much is doomed for failure without a change in direction or management. I have no delusions or paranoia about gaming. This game has a lot of promise and its not an evil studio like EA or NCsoft. But at the same time they arent developing an approachable game to bring in the most amount of people they can to grow their studio or bring in new devs. If you havent noticed this game is dying not growing. The forums are dead and that is the often the first signs of a death knell for anyi studio is loss of interest.

 

SO yeah im concerned about the viability and longevity of this unproven and untested indie studio and their peyote vision quest they are on. Its not personal it's just business. One where I give them money to develop a game I want to eventually play. NQ is not your friend or my friend. After all they are in the business of entertainment and there are well established norms and expectations going into creating a PvP MMO that does not require re-inventing the wheel when it has already been done 50+ times or more.

 

Like it or hate it im not going anywhere. I want to help them make a game worth playing that isnt a short sighted single solar system with no point, function, or purpose when they cant even seem to get people to fight in a PvP game to me at least is a red flag since they dont seem to know how any of the systems work, the inherant design flaws for going with those game mechanics/systems, why their bandaids never seem to work and exacerbate the problems of their bad design, and what it takes to fix them. They just are a green team of ametures and that is ok. It still does not mean im not going to not speak up and try to help save this game from themselves or the same pitfalls the many developers before them made. To me its a waste of time to devote so much time and effort to keep re-iterating these systems before they reach the same conclusion I am pointing out to make it all work as NQ envisioned.

 

As much as NQ wants this to be a PvP game its not, not will it be if they don't at least follow established PvP norms in the industry people expect. You might not believe me that creating a game in a niche genre you either love or hate. You might not believe that this game probably only interests -5% of the PvP gaming market share. You might not believe me that a mine craft clone and an over complicated shallow progression system only really draws in MOBA players who want to do 5-10 mins scrims and log off. Or that this only appeals as a building game with space travel and the devs arent willing to offer that.

 

PvP in this game is dead. PvC is all there really is to do, and to many who would play if there were PvE or npcs to fight its still not fit for general consumption as an MMO set up to be approachable or designed for any real longevity to get to launch perhaps but like I said the launch happened when paid OBT began.

 

Believe me or not. I dont know if you are white knighting and telling me to trust the plan, if you are new to gaming, you bury your head in the sand and dont want to see the truth, or you just disagree. There is nothing wrong with any of that. I just judge games for what they are and not by the salesmen / hypemen at each studio and their visons/roadmaps. None of that matters when the studio is already a year behind schedule and their player base is quitting or slipping into comas with new players bailing left and right.

 

Facts are subjective to different people. You might think this is going great and nothing is going wrong. We shall see it plays out. My experience tells me otherwise. But dont worry I wont rub it in your face when this thing fails hard I just hope you take this little experiment of a game as a learning exercise and also learn that devs will say anything to get you to play their game and the actual results of the game will be much different than what comes out.

 

So let me ask you then how do you see this thing playing out through the lens of your bias?

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2 hours ago, Moosegun said:

The only slight benefits to the player is that it is the payment is instant and most players are too lazy, to turn the ore in to actual products and wait for them to be sold (making as much as 4x) the ore sales value.

Without enough Quanta circulating you can wait forever for your products to be sold. Even with bots as source of cash there is currently no chance to get 4x the ore sales value. With a lot of products you can't even make profit at all because they have market prices far below their ore sales value.

 

2 hours ago, Moosegun said:

you DO NOT need a constant influx of money to keep an economy viable, there is enough quanta in circulation at the moment if it was actually traded between players

That is wrong in theory (with money sinks (e.g. schematics) there must be corresponding sources for cash) and in practice (deflation is still ongoing).

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2 hours ago, Moosegun said:

Your points about economy collapsing are also floored, you DO NOT need a constant influx of money to keep an economy viable, there is enough quanta in circulation at the moment if it was actually traded between players.

This is not true for games because money/assets frequently go out of circulation when players stop playing. Beyond that, DU has money sinks when buying from bots which remove quanta from the game.

 

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48 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Without enough Quanta circulating you can wait forever for your products to be sold. Even with bots as source of cash there is currently no chance to get 4x the ore sales value. With a lot of products you can't even make profit at all because they have market prices far below their ore sales value.

 

That is wrong in theory (with money sinks (e.g. schematics) there must be corresponding sources for cash) and in practice (deflation is still ongoing).

You cannot have a money supply problem in a game that gives players quanta every day for logging in.

 

What you are confusing is the 'value' of money with the 'supply' of money. Money faucets in the game only relate to money sinks (taxes , schematics, BP generation). If you got rid of bots , prices would naturally arrive at whatever value is appropriate for the circulating money.

 

The answer to artificially high product prices because bots pervert the value of quanta is not to add more money supply or make it easier to 'generate' money. The answer is simply to remove the stupid bots so they stop artificially inflating the price of goods.

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6 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

The value of ore is fixed by bot orders. It can't depend on demand as long as selling ore to bots is the major source of cash.

 

The intent was ALWAYS to eventually remove the bots from the game.  Their purpose is to inject enough Quanta into the game to create a functioning economy.

 

6 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

You still don't see the problem. The major role of mining is not ore supply but generation of cash. If almost no one would mine for a while the economy would run out of cash and collapse.

 

That's just wrong sorry.  The role of mining is to produce ore, which can be used to make stuff.  NQ has complete control over the balance here.  They can inject as much Quanta as needed, and remove as much Quanta as needed whenever they want.  Their goal is to eventually take off the training wheels and let the economy function on it's own.  With little to no intervention.

 

6 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

The missing puzzle pieces are additional ways to inject cash into the game.

 

The missing puzzle piece is players using Ore and Quanta to build and buy things from each other.  Funneling Ore and Quanta out of the game isn't part of the economy.  It's part of the initial stage of creating and balancing it.

 

What you're doing is like walking into a half built house and pointing to the unfinished roof and saying, "rain is going to get in here, we need to tare it down and build a roof that doesn't have a hole in it."

 

You've got to at least take a look at the blueprints before you decide you know how to build a better house.

 

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3 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

The intent was ALWAYS to eventually remove the bots from the game.  Their purpose is to inject enough Quanta into the game to create a functioning economy.

 

 

That's just wrong sorry.  The role of mining is to produce ore, which can be used to make stuff.  NQ has complete control over the balance here.  They can inject as much Quanta as needed, and remove as much Quanta as needed whenever they want.  Their goal is to eventually take off the training wheels and let the economy function on it's own.  With little to no intervention.

 

 

The missing puzzle piece is players using Ore and Quanta to build and buy things from each other.  Funneling Ore and Quanta out of the game isn't part of the economy.  It's part of the initial stage of creating and balancing it.

 

What you're doing is like walking into a half built house and pointing to the unfinished roof and saying, "rain is going to get in here, we need to tare it down and build a roof that doesn't have a hole in it."

 

You've got to at least take a look at the blueprints before you decide you know how to build a better house.

 

Its not our fault NQ pulled the trigger and said they had a beta to play when its only a proof of concept experiment at this point. They said the house was ready to buy into and yet its just a frame. Its not even half built. Ever heard the phrase nothing goes according to plan? Ive never seen a studio follow their actual blueprint start to finish. Its more like thinking they know the recipe but they dont want to use all the ingredients or follow the amounts. Id say its more like that. Its not really even in the oven yet.

 

I judge based on what there is not empty promises they know they cant keep 1 year behind schedule already. Think they arent going to cut corners with the limitations of the engine and voxel engine along the way?

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10 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

[...]

The role of mining is to produce ore, which can be used to make stuff.

[...]

Funneling Ore and Quanta out of the game isn't part of the economy.

[...]

What you're doing is like walking into a half built house and pointing to the unfinished roof and saying, "rain is going to get in here, we need to tare it down and build a roof that doesn't have a hole in it."

Sorry, I didn't realize that you are talking about a game you are dreaming of and not the game we have and will have in the forseeable future.

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5 minutes ago, Warlander said:

I judge based on what there is not empty promises they know they cant keep 1 year behind schedule already. Think they arent going to cut corners with the limitations of the engine and voxel engine along the way?

 

That's your choice i guess.  But starting with the assumption that everything NQ has done is wrong, and everything they plan to do is a lie, means you're basically suggesting that NQ give up, and you make the game instead.

 

Feel free to let us know when your game is done.  If yours is finished before DU maybe i'll give it a try.

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14 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

That's your choice i guess.  But starting with the assumption that everything NQ has done is wrong, and everything they plan to do is a lie, means you're basically suggesting that NQ give up, and you make the game instead.

 

Feel free to let us know when your game is done.  If yours is finished before DU maybe i'll give it a try.

I didnt start this game with any assumptions. My buddy was like hey want to play a voxel based pvp game and I watched him stream it and decided to play. I dont have any assumptions I just learned what there is and what there is to come and thats it. The whole premise of rolling out their priority of features is to judge them and provide feedback. Is it not? Im not stuck on a vision quest like most here.

 

I tried this game from the ground floor up not knowing about the game. I know much more then I did before and eventually looked into the roadmap and just judging by what they have created. Its not hard to see a pattern in iterations perhaps based on time constraints, perhaps because bad game design, perhaps just inexperience in producing quality games before this project. I dont know nor care really. The direction of this game needs work.

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2 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Nice idea. But you forgot that schematics prices are fixed.

I didn't forget anything. I specifically said schematics , taxes, even bp creation are quanta sinks. The quanta injection can be covered by the daily log in bonus and whatever system they choose (ex: missions) to inject quanta into the game to keep the money supply from deflating. The fact that bots exist in this injection capacity right now was always a huge design mistake, and they should have just left it to daily log in bonuses. Bots created the gross over inflation that caused them to price schematics so high in the first place.

 

Everything else is a discussion about the "value" of quanta in the game as it relates to pricing.

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16 hours ago, Xennial said:

I didn't forget anything. I specifically said schematics , taxes, even bp creation are quanta sinks.

You claimed:

20 hours ago, Xennial said:

If you got rid of bots , prices would naturally arrive at whatever value is appropriate for the circulating money.

That is simply not true for the money sinks. Their prices remain unchanged, even when the circulating money goes zero.

 

The amount of money circulating should grow with the amount of products traded on the markets (more precisely, it should grow a bit faster). This is currently not the case. But with the market bots there is at least some kind relationship between trades and generation of cash. Without the bots there would be no such relation at all. The amount of products would be increased by mining/crafting and decreased by permanent destruction. The amount of cash would be increased by the daily login bonus and reduced by the money sinks. Both processes would be decoupled.

 

If the playerbase dumps more cash into the money sinks than NQ pumps into the game, the amount of money circulating will decrease. You are right that the product market prices will decrease too. But that doesn't stop the amount of circulating money from decreasing. All you get is permanent deflation with customers not buying because they are speculating for even less prices the next day and industry not producing because time to return of investment goes infinite. The real economy will freeze and the financial economy will bleed to death.

 

If the daily bonus exceeds the money sinks we would get inflation. That's not as dangerous as deflation but still not healthy for the markets.

 

Without the bots there would be no chance for the economy to regulate itself. In order to keep it stable NQ would need to observe the markets and to adjust the daily bonus accordingly on a regular base. That just means we would be doomed (we are talking about NQ after all).

 

16 hours ago, Xennial said:

The quanta injection can be covered by the daily log in bonus and whatever system they choose (ex: missions) to inject quanta into the game to keep the money supply from deflating.

The daily login bonus is just a placeholder that needs to go until final release (money should be earned and not gifted) and the "whatever system they choose (ex: missions) to inject quanta into the game" is exactly what everybody is asking for but NQ failed to deliver so far. The bots remain essential for the economy as long as we don't have these "whatever systems".

 

16 hours ago, Xennial said:

The fact that bots exist in this injection capacity right now was always a huge design mistake, and they should have just left it to daily log in bonuses.

Market bots are not a bad idea in general. But they need to be designed correctly. NQ has no clue how to do that. They would need to consult an economist. That is not going to happen.

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This game economy is currently dominated by JC’s bots. 
 

welfare bots, ore purchase bots and industry magic potion selling bots. 
 

between their sweet trifecta of China sweathouse-like bots. There is verrrrry little money leakage to actual players. 
 

Here is how it works: people mine ore and immediately sell it to add to the money they get from the welfare bots, draining the ore from general circulation. Then massive chunks of that cash are burnt at the alter of industrial sacrifice to fund the potions to run the machines to make the things that no one has any money to buy. 
 

Between the rapid and continuous disposal of ore to the purchase bots and ℏ to the potion bots, it’s zero surprise the game feels empty and devoid of market activity. 
 

literally a JC bot to JC bot short-circuit with very, very little being put into the game’s infrastructure. 

what JC hasn’t grasped is that even with the schematics, people would still rather pay several times as much to make stuff themselves than depend on others to make stuff for them. 
 

personally, whenever I purchase something from the market, I feel as if I’m investing in others becoming rich and failing my org. So I rather give the money to my org for them to invest in machines to make stuff for us rather than lining some unknown org’s pockets: who wants to be a dumbass consumer in a computer game? That’s what most of us have to suffer in real Life. 

 

we want to be moguls of industry, self dependent and self sufficient: wanting for nothing. Certainly not needing to go to one of those f’cking janky af commoner markets every day for bits and pieces to make a ship.

 

and certainly not when we know that the money is going to making someone else wealthy. 
 

?
 

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1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

You claimed:

That is simply not true for the money sinks. Their prices remain unchanged, even when the circulating money goes zero.

 

The amount of money circulating should grow with the amount of products traded on the markets (more precisely, it should grow a bit faster). This is currently not the case. But with the market bots there is at least some kind relationship between trades and generation of cash. Without the bots there would be no such relation at all. The amount of products would be increased by mining/crafting and decreased by permanent destruction. The amount of cash would be increased by the daily login bonus and reduced by the money sinks. Both processes would be decoupled.

 

If the playerbase dumps more cash into the money sinks than NQ pumps into the game, the amount of money circulating will decrease. You are right that the product market prices will decrease too. But that doesn't stop the amount of circulating money from decreasing. All you get is permanent deflation with customers not buying because they are speculating for even less prices the next day and industry not producing because time to return of investment goes infinite. The real economy will freeze and the financial economy will bleed to death.

 

If the daily bonus exceeds the money sinks we would get inflation. That's not as dangerous as deflation but still not healthy for the markets.

 

Without the bots there would be no chance for the economy to regulate itself. In order to keep it stable NQ would need to observe the markets and to adjust the daily bonus accordingly on a regular base. That just means we would be doomed (we are talking about NQ after all).

 

The daily login bonus is just a placeholder that needs to go until final release (money should be earned and not gifted) and the "whatever system they choose (ex: missions) to inject quanta into the game" is exactly what everybody is asking for but NQ failed to deliver so far. The bots remain essential for the economy as long as we don't have these "whatever systems".

 

Market bots are not a bad idea in general. But they need to be designed correctly. NQ has no clue how to do that. They would need to consult an economist. That is not going to happen.

 

Yes the daily login is just a placeholder for 'earned' injection systems. That does not make bots necessary. You are still hung up on injection systems being necessary for players to 'earn' money. 

 

I will try and make my point a little clearer. When we earn money in the real world , it's not a reward from the central bank that just printed the stuff. Our real world has the central banks as the injectors , and they also function as the sinks. Everything else is just passing around what they print. Even in this system a low level of inflation is required to keep fiat currency based economies stable. Low level inflation is just fine.

 

The same would be true in the game world if ore bots did not exist at all. The daily log in bonus (or whatever systems replace it) would be the central bank printing , and the schematic/tax bots would be the sinks. 

 

Everything else would be determined by players valuation of good and services.  Ore Bots have always and remain the primary problem with the market not being stable. The market prices etc do not need to be 'regulated' by NQ, the simple laws of supply and demand would take care of that.

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2 hours ago, Xennial said:

The same would be true in the game world if ore bots did not exist at all. The daily log in bonus (or whatever systems replace it) would be the central bank printing , and the schematic/tax bots would be the sinks.

In theory, yes. But I already mentioned above that NQ would need to act like a central bank and regularly adjust the daily login bonus. Does it look like they have a proper qualification? I don't think so. I don't want to see the amount of circulating money in their hands only. With the market bots players have at least a small chance to inject cash into the game when required. This ability should not be removed but extended. Isn't it JC's vision to have a full player driven economy? Than give players the tools required to ensure price stability.

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9 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

In theory, yes. But I already mentioned above that NQ would need to act like a central bank and regularly adjust the daily login bonus. Does it look like they have a proper qualification? I don't think so. I don't want to see the amount of circulating money in their hands only. With the market bots players have at least a small chance to inject cash into the game when required. This ability should not be removed but extended. Isn't it JC's vision to have a full player driven economy? Than give players the tools required to ensure price stability.

With as much surplus as there is the only stabilization is hitting rock bottom on everything. Just look how much the market tanked after NQ arbitrarily decided to pull the plug on non pvp items breaking through the destructive elements system. The bots at this point are the only thing holding the market up and creating a reserve surplus on top of the massive amount listed. If they took away the bots the market will free fall which is why JC allows them to opperate and just make millions doing nothing but consolidating all those credits to the botters. In any other game they would likely have been banned but hey DU is reinventing the wheel.

 

If there is no destructive elements or PvP going on that surplus of items and ore will not ever be brought down to a realistic market level or free market. If there is no way to get items out of the game or make them custom then it will always be filled with 100x more than anyone will use and besides everyone is making everything themselves these days so who needs to buy anything but new players or those progressing through the industry progression who will then flood the market and undercut themselves at a loss due to undercutting everyone else because they need the money and all those schematics are priced to eat the first 100 crafts anyhow.

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7 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

In theory, yes. But I already mentioned above that NQ would need to act like a central bank and regularly adjust the daily login bonus. Does it look like they have a proper qualification? I don't think so. I don't want to see the amount of circulating money in their hands only. With the market bots players have at least a small chance to inject cash into the game when required. This ability should not be removed but extended. Isn't it JC's vision to have a full player driven economy? Than give players the tools required to ensure price stability.

If the vision is a full player economy then you don't use bots to control that economy. Players are not responsible for pricing stability, that is purely a natural consequence of supply and demand.

 

Quote

With as much surplus as there is the only stabilization is hitting rock bottom on everything. Just look how much the market tanked after NQ arbitrarily decided to pull the plug on non pvp items breaking through the destructive elements system. The bots at this point are the only thing holding the market up and creating a reserve surplus on top of the massive amount listed. If they took away the bots the market will free fall which is why JC allows them to opperate and just make millions doing nothing but consolidating all those credits to the botters. In any other game they would likely have been banned but hey DU is reinventing the wheel.

 

If there is no destructive elements or PvP going on that surplus of items and ore will not ever be brought down to a realistic market level or free market. If there is no way to get items out of the game or make them custom then it will always be filled with 100x more than anyone will use and besides everyone is making everything themselves these days so who needs to buy anything but new players or those progressing through the industry progression who will then flood the market and undercut themselves at a loss due to undercutting everyone else because they need the money and all those schematics are priced to eat the first 100 crafts anyhow.

They should never have removed non-pvp element destruction, that seems obvious to everyone I talk to except NQ and the whiners that their ship was destroyed by a bug. While I sympathize with losing element life to a crash, bug , etc we are playing Beta so people should be told to just suck it up. Most likely most of these instances of rage were people flying ships that far surpassed their ability to maintain.

 

This is no different in many respects to the crutch of bots holding up market prices. Ore , products etc should absolutely be allowed to freefall. Yeah for a few weeks it would suck if your not an industrialist as ore prices fell through the floor , but eventually things would stabilize as the miners compete with each other for the ore. 

 

All these band-aid solutions to just telling people to grow the @#$% up is what is causing half the problems we experience with the economy.

 

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15 minutes ago, Xennial said:

This is no different in many respects to the crutch of bots holding up market prices. Ore , products etc should absolutely be allowed to freefall. Yeah for a few weeks it would suck if your not an industrialist as ore prices fell through the floor , but eventually things would stabilize as the miners compete with each other for the ore.

Removing the bots several weeks before the next large patch might work. It would give time for the market to stabilize before the influx of new/returning users when new content arrives.

 

The market economy is already having a demand problem though. If many more players stop spending money at the markets then the economy will stagnate regardless of the bots.  Low demand items like XL gates have largely vanished from the market already. There were no sell orders for several days and there was 1 the last time I checked.

 

The other issue with removing bots is what to do about schematics. Previously bots were only buying/selling goods that players could make from ore if the market was empty. Now we need a new game mechanic for schematic delivery before bots can be fully removed. 

Edited by fiddlybits
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DID YOU KNOW!?!

 

EvE a game that has a player driven economy and has been around for more then 10 years, STILL HAS BOTS!?! that buy stuff!!!   What!!! yea its true!


But why?

Because in a game economy there is a lot of stuff players can make that other players will rarely ever buy.  And over time after more and more players are building more stuff there is never enough demand to buy many constructed items.   Also time locked skills... New players dont enter the game and immediately have access to build everything in the game so they cant simply plug the holes in the market as a natural market would dictate, so what then?  You want to tell new players 6 months from now that if they want to get into building stuff first they need to train building skills for 1 year just to compete with older players on building end game top tier elements because the low tier stuff is market flooded and worthless?  And since players will always use less produced goods then are produced the market will fall into free fall and much like EvE was for many years (before a revamp)  players will find that it costs more money to produce an item then raw ore is worth just to sell.


Consider this: A single player (player A) could buy minerals off the market at "player set prices" or mine them ( you know mining yourself vs buying ore at player set prices has no difference when you are calculating the worth of producing a product) and then from there construct 1000's of ML of honey comb to put on the market.  Then another single player (player B ) would buy that honeycomb to construct a ship... But never buy honeycomb again to construct another ship for maybe say a month?  Meanwhile player A (and other players like him) continue to build more honey comb and put it on the market.  There will never be more demand for honeycomb then the player base will supply.  And due to the fact that players have to skill into producing items low tier honeycomb will be all they can produce so they will forever be far more supply then demand.

 

So as of right now and the foreseeable future there are only a few ways to make money, mine ore, or sell produced stuff on the market.  Given only those 2 options there will forever be more demand then supply,  or the market will be so broken as it is now people wont even bother to build stuff and sell it.

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On 1/14/2021 at 7:59 AM, Xennial said:

No, what your talking about is money generation within the game. That is different from a player 'making money' to fund whatever activity they are trying to do. Two different concepts. 

Semantics. You state they are different, but don't explain how they are different. Either way you are making money to fund stuff, either by "generation" or being paid money. There is literally difference to the player on how the money is acquired, as long as it is acquired.

 

The two most widespread ways to acquire wealth is to mine and sell to bots, and the 150kh daily allowance.

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