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"Please make Time invested in DU worthwile by reducing overal costs in creating ships and buildings".


Aaron Cain

"Please make Time invested in DU worthwile by reducing overal costs in creating ships and buildings".  

10 members have voted

  1. 1. Please sign this petition

    • I Concur and sign this petition
    • I sign this petition with faith
    • I sign this so i can really get into DU and Be Fantastic


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Hereby I  open a petition to NQ With a very simple question, nothing too fancy: "Please make Time invested in DU worthwile by reducing overal costs in creating ships and buildings".

 

Alternatively this will also probably reduce the gold sellers as margins plumeth and will inspire PvP as losses are manageble. Moreover will this help the economy because everyone loves to keep industry rolling so the surplus needs to go somewhere.

 

It all comes down to what was already said, would you risk a 200 euro/dollar ship? probably not.  Would you risk a ship thats net worth is a cup of coffee and maybe a donut?  I would, wouldn't you?

 

This topic is not to discuss how to make it cheaper, to give NQ all the space there is to be creative.

 

Origins of this petition are the many discussions on PVP and what is holding people back at the moment.

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With building its pretty easy (and already was discussed a bit, I think original idea from @GraXXoR) -- addition of some sort of T zero, building grade materials, that, per example, too heavy and non-efficient for ships/space station building (and even long-range transportation), but can be produced (and used) localy on surface.

 

With PvP, I to extent agree, and was talking about similiar ideas for some time.

 

> PvP ships too expensive for "trial"  and "fun" losses overall.

> Especialy for newcomers, without old (and not fully "honest" fat) to afford things.

> No meaningful one-seater entry (beyond some fantasies from people who actualy not doing this themeselfs).

> Meta overall in "all or nothing" concept (where "all" is gold and largest, most expensive components).

 

Obviously, there is some well established "purists" (blablabla, its how it supposed to be), but even they generaly only living proof of this trend, running into SZ (never leaving it far) with their fancy full crewed ship when encountering smallest of risk to be actualy toasted. Nice double standards here, sometimes of absurd level. May be we even see some of this clowns in topic.

 

 

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6 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

> PvP ships too expensive for "trial"  and "fun" losses overall.
> Especialy for newcomers, without old (and not fully "honest" fat) to afford things.

You can say "thank you" to the folks that cried about XS cores balance. You now need L to have a chance. That what happens when devs adopt PVP to players that have no clue about it. Best design went from cube to sausage, repair unit still disabled so no fancy stuff in ships that see combat(no I will not copy/paste after every fight). 

The beauty princesses with guns you see for sale are just beauty princesses nothing more.

 

6 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

> No meaningful one-seater entry (beyond some fantasies from people who actualy not doing this themeselfs).

Me and my friend yesterday engaged another ship, each of us was in one-sitter (remote control + sitting in gunner seat). Don't know about the other guy, he didn't die. Ran to safe.

 

6 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

> Meta overall in "all or nothing" concept (where "all" is gold and largest, most expensive components).

Perfectly fine in hardcore MMO. (No, a game where flying from point A to point B takes 20 minutes and can take up to 3-4 hours cannot be considered casual). The only problem is that atm it is "Nothing" or "Almost nothing". You either lose your ship or you get it very screwed up + get another ship that is totally screwed up. If target has guns it is economically not profitable to engage and kill it in 95% of the cases due to losing repair count on your own ship elements.
Exactly opposite of what people wanted. Any meaningful PVPer will avoid combat and only prey on transports as it's just not worth it to enter real combat whatever the outcome.

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19 hours ago, Fra119 said:

I've said that a million times already, just reduce the overall materials required to build, by doing so you are both softening the cost of pvp AND lengthening the life of every planet as we don't need to extract this much anymore.

But that would speed things up, and JC has expressly said people are playing this game too much... er.. I mean... people are progressing too fast.
In all fairness, CDPR were surprised when some players managed to "complete" Cyberpunk in less than 20 hours on their first playthough considering they had touted it as a 120hr+ play through game.

The problem is is that JC has now recalibrated the game around the 100+ player org with 10+ hour per day players that "caused" this perceived problem, meaning that single players and single digit orgs with single digit member play  times will be at a distinct disadvantage.

To some extent, there needs to be unlimited (in comparison to the population)  "staple" materials for a society to grow rapidly. Every developed society in the world came from a past where subsistence materials were common enough to allow the spontaneous creation of proto-civilizations without undue competition. However in DU, 


Refining limestone for calcium but losing the carbon and oxygen (CaC03), solid fluorine, gold and marble being the toughest materials (until recently) and of course my personal favourite, mining coal and combining it with Oxygen (IIRC) to create wood. These kinds of decisions immediately alienate players with even a modicum of scientific knowledge beyond primary school level. Stuff like this means that humans cannot harness Stone / Bronze Age materials such as wood from trees or glass from sand or even more egregiously bricks from clay. Heaven forbid, harvesting solid stone from those massive boulders and subsurface deposits.

This causes every single wall and floor of basic ground constructs to compete with the materials used in space age constructs creating enormous pressure on resources.

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Love your post Graxxor, so many elements i think daily when online. sand out of glas is one of my favorites, also we have so much soil/dirt/snow/you name it and its worthless, technically snow is water so that can be used, soil/dirt/whatever contains so many elements/minerals so it should be refinable. the way it is used now they are just other elements on the elemental table.

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On 1/12/2021 at 6:00 AM, XKentX said:

You can say "thank you" to the folks that cried about XS cores balance. You now need L to have a chance. That what happens when devs adopt PVP to players that have no clue about it. Best design went from cube to sausage, repair unit still disabled so no fancy stuff in ships that see combat(no I will not copy/paste after every fight). 

The beauty princesses with guns you see for sale are just beauty princesses nothing more.

 

Me and my friend yesterday engaged another ship, each of us was in one-sitter (remote control + sitting in gunner seat). Don't know about the other guy, he didn't die. Ran to safe.

 

Perfectly fine in hardcore MMO. (No, a game where flying from point A to point B takes 20 minutes and can take up to 3-4 hours cannot be considered casual). The only problem is that atm it is "Nothing" or "Almost nothing". You either lose your ship or you get it very screwed up + get another ship that is totally screwed up. If target has guns it is economically not profitable to engage and kill it in 95% of the cases due to losing repair count on your own ship elements.
Exactly opposite of what people wanted. Any meaningful PVPer will avoid combat and only prey on transports as it's just not worth it to enter real combat whatever the outcome.

So if we are thinking of this as a "hard-core" mmo as mentioned above, I tend to think about real world examples like defending your territory. Its not like we wouldn't use say a Carrier Battle Group to defend our stuff because it could take damage and be costly to repair. We would use it because our territory is valuable to us. As far as only attacking freighters; well that makes you a pirate which is to be expected in a game like this and is in my opinion a different type of pvp. Now fighting somthing with teeth would normally happen because of some larger reason like attacking or defending assets and territory. Of course there are those players that want to pvp for glory and the simple thrill of it and in that case it must be a price you are willing to pay and if not then just don't do it. I realize it's very difficult to have a game with real world concepts and such feel realistic and logical yet still be a game. In short if you want to play with weapons expect to take damage. So I think the thing is that this game seems to not be a game that encourages meaningless pvp. I mean in real life its not like you just go pick a fight with your f/a 18 or your Nimitz class carrier just because you want to use it. What do you guys think about how I am seeing this, and please keep in mind that I just now started getting into DU and probably don't have a full picture about the entire issue aside from what I hear the devs saying about the desired outcome for this Game universe. And also what do you mean by real combat? Because I can still get a concussion while sparring.

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1 hour ago, Corphius said:

So if we are thinking of this as a "hard-core" mmo as mentioned above, I tend to think about real world examples like defending your territory. Its not like we wouldn't use say a Carrier Battle Group to defend our stuff because it could take damage and be costly to repair. We would use it because our territory is valuable to us. As far as only attacking freighters; well that makes you a pirate which is to be expected in a game like this and is in my opinion a different type of pvp. Now fighting somthing with teeth would normally happen because of some larger reason like attacking or defending assets and territory. Of course there are those players that want to pvp for glory and the simple thrill of it and in that case it must be a price you are willing to pay and if not then just don't do it. I realize it's very difficult to have a game with real world concepts and such feel realistic and logical yet still be a game. In short if you want to play with weapons expect to take damage. So I think the thing is that this game seems to not be a game that encourages meaningless pvp. I mean in real life its not like you just go pick a fight with your f/a 18 or your Nimitz class carrier just because you want to use it. What do you guys think about how I am seeing this, and please keep in mind that I just now started getting into DU and probably don't have a full picture about the entire issue aside from what I hear the devs saying about the desired outcome for this Game universe. And also what do you mean by real combat? Because I can still get a concussion while sparring.

The problem is that the game not only doesn't provide motivation to fight anyone that can shoot back it ACTIVELY kicks you in the butt for doing it. (Doesn't matter who wins, both ships are screwed)

On the other hand, killing that defenseless freighter is juicy. Pirate ? OK, I am a pirate who cares.

 

Remove safezones all over outer planets or move the warp point out of the safe zone and here you go. Now you have a motivation to use force to occupy the orbit of the planet, blockade it and extort protection money. Fight others that want to do the same(and they bring guns too) etc. This creates drama, this creates content.

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On 1/12/2021 at 6:00 AM, XKentX said:

You can say "thank you" to the folks that cried about XS cores balance. You now need L to have a chance. That what happens when devs adopt PVP to players that have no clue about it. Best design went from cube to sausage, repair unit still disabled so no fancy stuff in ships that see combat(no I will not copy/paste after every fight). 

The beauty princesses with guns you see for sale are just beauty princesses nothing more.

I really don't understand this perspective, and it pops up all the time

 

Yes, let's blame players for NQ's design decisions...

 

How about the company that makes a product (ostensibly for profit) takes responsibility for their own work? Or do they only get credit for the features that people like? 

 

If NQ is so easily swayed by random players instead of actually understanding game design, that's still their fault for not having a grasp on the most fundamental and critical discipline in game development: game design. 

 

Trying to blame players for a developer decision you don't like or agree with is fundamentally toxic and serves no purpose beyond deflecting responsibility and blame. 

 

JC seems to make every single design decision and doesn't seem to really care what players think...how about blaming him, the dude that's never produced, designed, or even worked on a game before DU...? 

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19 minutes ago, michaelk said:

I really don't understand this perspective, and it pops up all the time

 

Yes, let's blame players for NQ's design decisions...

 

How about the company that makes a product (ostensibly for profit) takes responsibility for their own work? Or do they only get credit for the features that people like? 

 

If NQ is so easily swayed by random players instead of actually understanding game design, that's still their fault for not having a grasp on the most fundamental and critical discipline in game development: game design. 

 

Trying to blame players for a developer decision you don't like or agree with is fundamentally toxic and serves no purpose beyond deflecting responsibility and blame. 

 

JC seems to make every single design decision and doesn't seem to really care what players think...how about blaming him, the dude that's never produced, designed, or even worked on a game before DU...? 

I do not defend NQ at any point. They don't play their own game and have no clue.

Add lots of players that don't have clue about PVP because they think it's "dead" and their only PVP is being shot at while not having a radar to see where they are being shot from. They are still the most vocal ones on the forum and are advising on how to balance PVP...

This is what we get.

 

Now people ask to make an MMO game be like the ones with "To battle" button. So everything you have is meaningless and everything is cheap because they can't afford it.

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When you boil this game down its basically just fantasy MMO crafting stations and containers being made super overcomplicated which has its draws, a subpar flight sim, a below basic version of minecraft, and some basic weapons for people to fight with. Thats it. All the rest of this game is fluff and punishment that prevents you from playing so that they get 6-12 months of subscription time to do anything resembling a game.

 

If they just spent their time to create modular functionality such as a tool that let us bake voxels into an element they could just add functions and the space you have to make that set item function such as an aileron/flap and choose the flap function which could be like 1x1x5vx for an XS flap that has a function to generate lift and then allowed you to just design the actual part ourselves, choose from a library of textures that have nothing to do with voxel honeycombs to make it look how you want with the intended materials that make up the stats, and then bake the new flap from a voxel asset into an element with the function of a flap/aileron/switch/etc. And since its being made into an element the scale of voxels could likely be shrunk down slightly to allow for a little more finer detail since it will be turned into an element.

 

If I could make all the parts that comprise a wing I could then build my own custom wing out of various pieces that comprise the functionality of the element that has the parts in one solid piece and then construct the individual custom pieces I make into a wing (slats, flaps, ailerons, wingtips, winglets, spoilers) or engines (turbine, thruster banks, compressors, combustors, Air intake, etc) and make my own custom engine that isnt some devs idea of creating some wasteful "X" pattern L atmo engine that if it was stacked properly would be half the size or designed to stack or use engine cowls to direct the exaust thrust like an F-15/16. If I could build all my own custom parts that fit the style I want rather than working against and around the devs crap ugly designs.

 

If I then had the ability to use some kind of engineering core to take all those custom pieces and put them together to make a single element like the voxels and merge them into a complete element instead of fragments and again bake an element into an updated one that is complete then now im in business if I can blueprint the part and have all the requirements and materials translated into a blueprint recipe down the line.

 

If I could then that that blueprint to a drafting table or something and turn the blueprint into a custom production schematic I could then put into a machine I own and make the full custom wing which has all the parts, pieces, and neccessary requirements to make it update with the proper stats then now you have something to actually do as an industrialist.

 

All NQ has to do is create the functions for us to turn into custom parts that sepperate orgs by what their parts are intended to do or that there is no upward limit to what can be created. NQ does not have to make XL, XXL, ZXG, etc. They just have to set the parameters to how many voxels you are allowed to add in the space designated for the part and function it represents. Or corrisponding talents for various X,Y,Z dimensions per size class dimensions and let us do the rest. The economy is broken for 100 reasons at least and customization is one of the major issues of why no org is distinguishable from any other org. Theres 500 orgs just like you making the same parts. Regardless of the grade its still the same story in smaller and smaller scales per grade.

 

Im sure NQ could create a custom voxel size as a build space that is 1x1x5vx, 2x2x10vx, 3x3x15vx, 4x4x20vx, 5x5x25vx, 6x6x30vx, 7x7x35vs, 8x8x40vx, 9x9x45vx, or 10x10x50 vx for the different parts and I am sure others need more square or rectangular dimensions. If you had a scale of 1x1x5 to an XV instantly. Even if the XV class engine was 50x50x100 vx and you had to hand craft the voxels to make it look like an engine and still had the effects added its still an engine wether the dev artists make it or not if there is a modular system where they just need to add in the function for pieces of parts that conform to the existing crafting system for custom after market parts.

 

Schematics dont have to be a bad thing if used in that way. Seeing as pretty much nothing they make that is modular to make it easier on them to roll out parts upgrades at the same time is never going to happen.

 

While I think the answer to the economy is to  make it cost more mats not less will not help without a wipe. It is apparent with all the suplus on the markets and what people are likely storing in their warehouses will only hurt new players just that much more since everything up on the market would have been produced pre update to account for the cheaper parts that will no doubt make it impossible for anyone else to break into the market after that since they cant compete with the pre-nerf production.

 

So I have to agree that the real only viable solution they have is to steamline the industry to undercut the large orgs to level the playingfield by requiring less mats per craft which means less grinding overall and that is a good thing for everyone since new players win, vets win, and for once mega orgs feel the change the most. The bad part is that it makes everything on the market cost even less then the over saturated market is in now. even if you shave 10% off the req's it has a ripple in the market and no doubt the mega orgs can take the hit and still flood the market to no end since you still have to make money to sell to gold farming sites and all that since nobody fights in this building game.

 

Personally I think that it should be more because parts just straight up need more stats even with the grade system that just went live. If I want to haul 14 boxes of gold it will take a minimum of 250L stabilizers to make it fly and even if I wanted to there is not enough space in an L class dynamic core. Since its my only option even if I dropped the number of boxes to 5 its still rediculous to expect an 8hr flight time to mine 5 boxes and fly back. The constraints are just too high. They need like ranks over the tiers for like 1L Rare Atmo Engine to give enough power to actually not need so much weight stats bloat creep so mega orgs can stripmine and kill the market.

 

first I feel like the grades need to be bound to the same ore as basic versions just using 5x more of the base mats. Or if they want it to use better mats then they should have done ranks to represent the Ore Tiers so R1=T1 Ore and the grade is the purity of the ore required of that Rank. SO an 3XL rare Atmo Engine would be made out of Tier 3 ore, twice the size of a base model, made out of 4x the materials.

 

That type of system requires a lot of recycling and there needs to be a machine that can take fresh/damaged/broken parts and extract what is left of the metal contained in the item and convert it back into useable ore to recraft into something else. So if it is broken you lose 75%, Damaged 50-25%, and pristine 5%. This makes it so that if the market is flooded with useless items and their cost dips below the cost of ore then crafters can buy up parts so tht the sellers still sell items but then they can craft a better overall part and advance the basic progression of the server and not just themselves since the parts still have value no matter what the condition is and can recoup some of the metals.

 

Those are some huge issues to solve betore pvp is even viable since the cost of crafting worthy ships is expensive and too expensive for most people to lose their main ships to even want to attempt pvp. I think that the problem is items arent inexpensive enough regardless how much JC wants to create inflation for the gold seller community he didnt know it helps. If NQ adds any more grind you could pretty much work full time in du selling. Considering the tedium and the massive handouts with no limitations to megaorgs I wouldnt doubt that some of those 500 member communes arent just selling all their hard earned work to players on the side since 125mil is roughly $100. You can only imagine what the gold hoards alone are worth when you consider people are selling thorium for $250-500 per liter.

 

But since PvP is so messed up yet the most basic combat system I have seen in a decade they lack the understanding of the dynamics of a 2d plane fantasy PvP MMO vs the 3d plane space PvP they have in DU. Since most of the resources to fight mega orgs has been pretty much strip mined and its neither practical or possible to efficiently make items yourself as the market undercuts you and the only way it goes is down it should in theory make it cheaper and more viable to pvp. If given the choice most will avoid or flee pvp.

 

Even if territory wars go in the war is already pretty much has been won since alpha/beta started and those backers created all the megaguilds and beat the game before anyone knew how to play it. If PvP were fun or had purpose mega orgs would be blocading planets non stop or taking everything over. Perhaps that is the point. But at the same time the landlord should not matter who owns the territory or region its always out manned, out gunned, a day late, and an h short to do anything but join or pretty much have the last 6 months flushed down the toilet so a handfull of people can feel good about themselves as they haul off that hard earned work. I never stood a chance so whats left to keep playing if they just took out my payday large base?

 

Without a full wipe reset and more solar systems to start in and travel to with space to build and fight opposing solar systems with enough mats for the tiers in each solar system to wage unified wars its just going to chase out a large portion of people who already are barely clinging on hoping for some update to suddenly not have a reason to ever log back in.

 

 

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3 hours ago, XKentX said:

The problem is that the game not only doesn't provide motivation to fight anyone that can shoot back it ACTIVELY kicks you in the butt for doing it. (Doesn't matter who wins, both ships are screwed)

On the other hand, killing that defenseless freighter is juicy. Pirate ? OK, I am a pirate who cares.

 

Remove safezones all over outer planets or move the warp point out of the safe zone and here you go. Now you have a motivation to use force to occupy the orbit of the planet, blockade it and extort protection money. Fight others that want to do the same(and they bring guns too) etc. This creates drama, this creates content.

I see what you are saying and am inclined to agree. I like the idea of moving the warp point and it seems fair. I also have to admit that there shouldn't be a safe zone anywhere at all because reality is just not safe. I think deterrents would work best like hefty consequences for being caught pirating. That may also lead to some sweet player made underground markets and things like that since a consequence could be banishment from the main colonies or somthing like that. I would think that the story would justify harsher punishments than you would expect in a game because a pirate in this case would be literally committing crimes against humanity. But yeah all in all I think piracy needs to work properly and not be impossible. And FYI its cool that you are a pirate, I would be one except im no good at it lol.

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