@NQ - Alioth is growing hair

[Daphne Jones]

14 minutes ago, Warlander said:

. (snip) Since NQ nerfed the speed to about 4mps (snip)

There was no nerf. That was the design from the beginning. Dimencia just found a clever exploit to work around the speed limit. If you didn't use the exploit it was always limited to 4mps.

[Fra119]

10 minutes ago, Warlander said:

...

Thx for the explanation, wasn't aware of those details, I don't have an agg and my knowledge is limited by what I read around/see in-game.

[Warlander]

9 minutes ago, Xennial said:

I feel like a lot of this could be solved with play markets. Then maybe people would not be so obsessed with the Alioth markets in the first place and players could build proper searchable space markets.

Agreed

 

Players need the same access and functionality of markets on their bases with the stalls and everything that brind people to their base to pick their merch up land tied to the market search results for items. But also bound to the amount of containers required to hold a large pool of stored items. It should be possible to buy multiple tiles as well to make larger markets.

 

Not to mention a standardized trading system that has a buy/sell function similar to PWI's cat trader system that does not require scripting and tons of workarounds and instead is straight forward. Dont get me wrong people have made some incredibly complex things but this should be applicable to players or vehicles. I am buying this, I want to sell that. Since people are connected to ships there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to set up your character overnight as a vendor.

 

The amount of markets in the districts could be condensed into a 14 tile area but seeing as people just want to fill it up with all sorts of things because they have no market functionality outside of base markets or that they are just trying to sell on the spot or get traffic to their player built market it pretty much serves the purpose the district markets were intended to serve if you buy something from someone and have to go there anyways to pick it up. Or build it into the system for a delivery option when buying.

[Warlander]

1 hour ago, Daphne Jones said:

There was no nerf. That was the design from the beginning. Dimencia just found a clever exploit to work around the speed limit. If you didn't use the exploit it was always limited to 4mps.

Yes there was it went from almost 300kmph to 4kmph I would call that a huge nerf.

 

The devs allow the script im just using what they let me.

[Daphne Jones]

12 minutes ago, Warlander said:

Yes there was it went from almost 300kmph to 4kmph I would call that a huge nerf.

 

The devs allow the script im just using what they let me.

Fixing an exploit is not a nerf. Just because they didn't ban you for the exploit doesn't mean it wasn't cheating.

 

The devs also asked Dimencia to stop using the exploit and afaik, it was removed from the next version.

[Warlander]

1 minute ago, Daphne Jones said:

Fixing an exploit is not a nerf. Just because they didn't ban you for the exploit doesn't mean it wasn't cheating.

 

The devs also asked Dimencia to stop using the exploit and afaik, it was removed from the next version.

Killing an obvious gap and need of quality of life is a nerf since what is the point of a gravity defying AGG if it cant really defy gravity and nerfed so its again another punishment for their own bad game design or underestimating the player base yet again.

[GraXXoR]

I never even knew there was an AGG exploit. Only ever used the pedestrian 4kph AGG since day one. 
 

that’s the problem with exploits, they change people’s expectations and you end up with people feeling that they’re entitled to it. 

[Corphius]

On 1/9/2021 at 8:44 AM, Daphne Jones said:

Since the 0.23 nerf of AGG, everyone is putting up a 1000m tower to build a landing platform for their AGG ships. It's getting damned hard to fly at low altitude on Alioth because of all of the single voxel wide spikes that render right in front of you and kill you ship.

 

I have a solution... let the AGG work all the way to ground.

 

There really isn't any conceivable justification (in lore) for AGG magically not working under 1000m above an arbitrary reference altitude. How does the AGG know that it's OK to land on Thades and Feli but it insists on hovering above all other planets?

 

Considering that AGG can land on those two planets, I doubt there's any compelling game design reason for this restriction either... it just makes the planet hairy - which JC said he didn't want.

 

Please let AGG fly to the ground so I don't have to move my 1100m long runway up to 1200m altitude to have clear access to it. 

I think that at a certain size ships shouldn't even be able to get into too low of an orbit because they should not be able to overcome the gravity well once they are at to low of an altitude. This would also provide the opportunity for people to open up ports and shipyards in orbit.

 

Like in Starcitizen im fairly sure that a Bengal carrier can never come to the surface unless it crashes and it makes sense at a km length overall. What do you think?

[Daphne Jones]

2 hours ago, Corphius said:

I think that at a certain size ships shouldn't even be able to get into too low of an orbit because they should not be able to overcome the gravity well once they are at to low of an altitude. This would also provide the opportunity for people to open up ports and shipyards in orbit.

 

Like in Starcitizen im fairly sure that a Bengal carrier can never come to the surface unless it crashes and it makes sense at a km length overall. What do you think?

Here's where we run into the fundamental problem in DU... thrust is thrust. If someone can add enough engines to get a L core ship (or XL or XXL when those come in game) to and from the surface, the game won't stop them doing it. Compare to SC, where CIG can just decide that the Bengal can't do it and it's magically true... not necessarily magic - they need only not give it enough thrust. NQ can't do that because they don't control ship design.

 

Also the whole AGG thing hampers them forcing space-only ships because anything M core or larger can descend to 1000m ASL on AGG regardless of its weight. I'm just saying let's go all the way and let those ships land on AGG so we don't have to dodge spikes sticking up invisibly (because they render slowly) every other hex as we fly around in smaller ships.

[Warlander]

AGG=Hover pads. Its the same type of system. Hovers to 100m AGG at 1000m both provide a form of thrust to push/pull a ship up. AGG grav pads should work the same as hoverpads in the sense that you need to have enough to lift a ship and not just some random number required. If I need nearly 100 hoverpads to lift a load I expect to need the same amount to lift it via gravpads to add lift and speed like hovers. It litterally does not matter what direction gravpads face they dont actually do anything lol.

 

I also think that there should be a lift based rotor type system that bridges that 100-1000m gap since hovers push there should be some way to pull a ship up using the same principals.

 

 

[Daphne Jones]

2 hours ago, Warlander said:

AGG=Hover pads. Its the same type of system. Hovers to 100m AGG at 1000m both provide a form of thrust to push/pull a ship up. AGG grav pads should work the same as hoverpads in the sense that you need to have enough to lift a ship and not just some random number required. If I need nearly 100 hoverpads to lift a load I expect to need the same amount to lift it via gravpads to add lift and speed like hovers. It litterally does not matter what direction gravpads face they dont actually do anything lol.

 

I also think that there should be a lift based rotor type system that bridges that 100-1000m gap since hovers push there should be some way to pull a ship up using the same principals.

 

 

I don't understand why you equate AGG with hovers. They don't work the same way either in lore or in-game. AGG bends space to create a gravitational force to a specific altitude. Yes this is hand-wavium. It's very unlikely that any such device could actually exist - especially one that affects only the vehicle it's attached to.

 

But it is what it is. And that's a well known sci fi trope.

 

I applaud that NQ allows them to be set in any orientation and doesn't require them to be exposed to the outside - they're bending space-time, not projecting force.

 

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing lifting rotors for high altitude hover capability with better fuel efficiency than setting atmo engines verically.

[Hazaatan]

Weight! Add structural integrity.  Nothing wrong with building up, would be awesome to see skyscrapers, but the skinny towers to hold platforms is really bad.

[Daphne Jones]

55 minutes ago, Hazaatan said:

Weight! Add structural integrity.  Nothing wrong with building up, would be awesome to see skyscrapers, but the skinny towers to hold platforms is really bad.

That would definitely improve the game overall and increase the chance of seeing those damned towers.

[Warlander]

45 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

I don't understand why you equate AGG with hovers. They don't work the same way either in lore or in-game. AGG bends space to create a gravitational force to a specific altitude. Yes this is hand-wavium. It's very unlikely that any such device could actually exist - especially one that affects only the vehicle it's attached to.

 

But it is what it is. And that's a well known sci fi trope.

 

I applaud that NQ allows them to be set in any orientation and doesn't require them to be exposed to the outside - they're bending space-time, not projecting force.

 

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing lifting rotors for high altitude hover capability with better fuel efficiency than setting atmo engines verically.

Its not hard to see the connection that both hovers and AGG provide vertical push with hovers 1-100m and antigrav at 1001-10000m if you want to spend the 4kmph trip up that far that the 300kmph used to be more efficient at. Gravpads are basically just reskinned flat hoverpads already. Only one system takes into account weight and required lift and needing the required amount of hovers while antigrav does not take weight into account not the necessary amount of lift to defy gravity with the weight of a ship. Nor does it require any real size class equal to the ship core size.

 

It needs to be like hovers that point down because you are pushing up from the surface vertically. I can also see them being able to be pointed upwards so that it is pulling the ship up rather than pushing it up vertically too. Being able to put them in any direction should have to conform to ship design limitations like any other part.

 

If hovers only go up to 100m and there is a 900m gap between where anti-grav starts. It needs some kind of intermediary hover technology like industrial drone rotors to bridge that gap. I dont need retro rockets to do that as much as something akin to the hover engines that pulls the vehicle up instead of pushing it off the ground. Not to mention adding another way to customize atmo travel if it added helicopter like flight dynamics if they added a rudder tail rotor in the back.

 

If they factored in the weight and made the gravpads also effect speed it removes tedium. 4kmph works if you hate sci-fi as a developer and dont want your playerbase to use high technology that should be available and more wide spread than 20th century fossil fuel mentaility.

 

They could just as well just allow hover engines to fly up to the 1000m+ mark to make it easier to get to anti grav too as that is the easiest tweak they could make right now that negates the need for a bedistal since you can just go straight up to 1000m and then go up from there.

[Warlander]

1 hour ago, Hazaatan said:

Weight! Add structural integrity.  Nothing wrong with building up, would be awesome to see skyscrapers, but the skinny towers to hold platforms is really bad.

Henestly I think it would be cool if being target locked turned on physics on a ship so that when it gets blown up parts go flying off the ship with shrapnel and panel elements. Or that if you sepperate parts of the voxels they can be allowed to drift apart. But I only see that working if you could somehow chain cores together as sections of the ship that was more modular and if parts of the ship are destroyed those cores make it so the ship actually has more than one core point to destroy but also since physics would be enabled you could sepperate those sections if they arent touching other nearby voxels and drift apart. Thats almost the only way I see that working in terms of structural integrity.

 

As far as building structural integrity goes I pointed out in another thread there is already a basic frame of a system through the teraforming of teravoxels that has a rudimentary building requirements.

 

• With the flatten tool you can flatten existing hills but you can also pull up lower voxels to the height as well.
• If you try to bring up a lower area it will just make it flat unless the grade of the lower slop continues to slope down or it stops you.
• What it does it starts spitting out straight beams. If you try to continue to pull up the ground it only lets you go 40-50m before it physically wont let you pull it up anymore unless you work to flatten the surrounding land completely smooth as there are a couple phases before the area is completely smooth.
• Then try building up an area on top of the flat surface.
• Depending on your teraforming tool size (mines about 20m) and hollow out the space with the flatten tool to create a room.
• Then plane off the ceiling.
• You can actually somewhat pull the roof out until it stops you if you use the flatten tool.

Essentially its structureal integrity in a basic form. If players were allowed to sculpt more with teravoxels and add better foundations or frames to build static cores into it roughly does what you ask. There should be no reason to need static cores to add architectural touches, elements, or industry if you are just building the frame those things sit in so that it isnt about needing 500 L Static Cores you just need to use the sand, tundra, or snow as the frame and there is a good enough greyscale white and yellows to do a lot with if you could just make squares, cylanders, circles, and triangles. Or if there was any actual stone.

 

If you could build massive towers as bases you could turn on physics and let structures that arent in space plummit to the ground and explode or require some kind of base version of AGG.

[Deintus]

3 hours ago, Warlander said:

Its not hard to see the connection that both hovers and AGG provide vertical push with hovers 1-100m and antigrav at 1001-10000m if you want to spend the 4kmph trip up that far that the 300kmph used to be more efficient at. Gravpads are basically just reskinned flat hoverpads already. Only one system takes into account weight and required lift and needing the required amount of hovers while antigrav does not take weight into account not the necessary amount of lift to defy gravity with the weight of a ship. Nor does it require any real size class equal to the ship core size.

Just to clarify. Force by definition is a push or pull between two objects.

 

Antigravity IRL does not exist. In sci-fi it is a powered device that negates the force of gravity itself in effect creating a field in which no gravity exists at all, particularly for the vehicle affected. There is no application of force in any direction. With no gravity there is no weight, so it just floats, not hovers. Of course one could argue that it works similar to a magnet where gravity attracts and anti gravity repels. And I am sure you could say many more things on how it might work.

 

Key word MIGHT, since afterall it does not exist currently. So stating it is exactly like a hover engine is completely inaccurate. Technically hover engines direct thrust by forcing large volumes of air in a concentrated burst in one direction. Antigravity is whatever the game designer says it is.

 

[Warlander]

2 minutes ago, Deintus said:

Just to clarify. Force by definition is a push or pull between two objects.

 

Antigravity IRL does not exist. In sci-fi it is a powered device that negates the force of gravity itself in effect creating a field in which no gravity exists at all, particularly for the vehicle affected. There is no application of force in any direction. With no gravity there is no weight, so it just floats, not hovers. Of course one could argue that it works similar to a magnet where gravity attracts and anti gravity repels. And I am sure you could say many more things on how it might work.

 

Key word MIGHT, since afterall it does not exist currently. So stating it is exactly like a hover engine is completely inaccurate. Technically hover engines direct thrust by forcing large volumes of air in a concentrated burst in one direction. Antigravity is whatever the game designer says it is.

 

Im not comparing it to RL.

 

Obviously its nice as is but its broken. We can all agree on that yes?

 

It needs some kind of fuel or something to power it that takes energy. We can agree on that yes?

 

AGG and hoverpads both push vertically straight up do they not?

 

The gravpads are basically reskinned flat hoverpads are they not?

 

Everything else in the game is bound to physics is it not?

 

Even if you just use atmo/space engines to leave orbit you are still bound by weight and gravity are you not?

 

Why should AGG not have to fight gravity and use at the very least some form of weight to push force as a factor since it has no upward limit.

 

 

Does nobody see any issue that all you need is an M dynamic core, S-AGG, as many containers as you can pack and still put a seat on, and pretty much lift however much you want to lift without extra parts like grav pads to lift a near unlimited weight since you have a pedistal that basically exploits container range since you cant possibly fit the number of parts on a ship to haul that much weight so you just use your container range, clever use of rez pads, and just float on up. Then unactivate a rez pad and jump up and transfer the mats when you get in range. Im sure many people are doing this.

 

Its certainly a problem if you dont see it or not. Its still a problem.

[Thunderchrome]

one of the smaller reasons why a reset needs to happen at the end of the beta. i knew this would end like this the first time i saw one of these piece of shit towers.

[GraXXoR]

I've built a 1.2km tall tower, but I have made it 40m wide with glowing vertical stripes and 128m solid glowing horizontal octagonal safety "rings" every 128m. It's visible from about 10km away.

 

I believe in responsible architecture. ?

[Deintus]

4 hours ago, Warlander said:

Its certainly a problem if you dont see it or not. Its still a problem.

I believe there is a problem yes, in power/fuel consumption.

 

My view is hover/flight carrying heavy cargo should follow a believable limitation of lift/thrust/mass and AGG should follow a type of mass/gravity force/fuel or power consumption formula that is not completely unlimited. So yes, antigravity in its current state doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the technology in the game.

 

[Daphne Jones]

8 hours ago, Warlander said:

 

 

 

Does nobody see any issue that all you need is an M dynamic core, S-AGG, as many containers as you can pack and still put a seat on, and pretty much lift however much you want to lift without extra parts like grav pads to lift a near unlimited weight since you have a pedistal that basically exploits container range since you cant possibly fit the number of parts on a ship to haul that much weight so you just use your container range, clever use of rez pads, and just float on up. Then unactivate a rez pad and jump up and transfer the mats when you get in range. Im sure many people are doing this.

 

Its certainly a problem if you dont see it or not. Its still a problem.

No. It's not a problem. This is a standard sci fi trope - part of the genre. According to this trope anti-gravity negates gravity, or creates a negative gravity that pushes away from the planet, or creates some kind of fold in space-time that provides an upward gravity field. Sci fi authors don't usually explain it because there's no scientifically credible explanation. But one thing that's pretty regular in this trope is that because it's gravity, there's no weight limit... there's no weight.

 

The fact that it's completely free to use might be a balance issue and NQ has already indicated that when energy becomes a thing in-game, we will need energy to use AGG.

 

From recent discussion from NQ, I'm expecting that a core will provide a certain amount of energy and each element will consume a certain amount. If your elements exceed your core's energy budget you will either have to use a bigger core or add energy producing elements. That's my interpretation of what little NQ has said about it so grain of salt.

 

BTW, the "dark" energy that causes the universe to inflate is antigravity, but as far as we know, it only works on a universe-sized scale and we have no idea how it works.

[Warlander]

47 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

No. It's not a problem. This is a standard sci fi trope - part of the genre. According to this trope anti-gravity negates gravity, or creates a negative gravity that pushes away from the planet, or creates some kind of fold in space-time that provides an upward gravity field. Sci fi authors don't usually explain it because there's no scientifically credible explanation. But one thing that's pretty regular in this trope is that because it's gravity, there's no weight limit... there's no weight.

 

The fact that it's completely free to use might be a balance issue and NQ has already indicated that when energy becomes a thing in-game, we will need energy to use AGG.

 

From recent discussion from NQ, I'm expecting that a core will provide a certain amount of energy and each element will consume a certain amount. If your elements exceed your core's energy budget you will either have to use a bigger core or add energy producing elements. That's my interpretation of what little NQ has said about it so grain of salt.

 

BTW, the "dark" energy that causes the universe to inflate is antigravity, but as far as we know, it only works on a universe-sized scale and we have no idea how it works.

You can fit all the dark matter would be a more likely fuel source than plain dark energy. Seeing as gravity is like gears spinning with roatations of moons around planets, planets around suns, solar systems around galaxies, and galaxies pushing away from some kind of universal supernova it makes sense with black holes driving mush of that spin to occur or the conditions for that spin of matter/anti matter or the magnetic reactions to elements and metalic elements to react and act to the worlpool current.

[Deintus]

8 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

The fact that it's completely free to use might be a balance issue and NQ has already indicated that when energy becomes a thing in-game, we will need energy to use AGG.

That is where I see the problem. You need 'x' amount of power to maintain 'x' amount of mass in null or anti gravity state.

 

[Daphne Jones]

34 minutes ago, Deintus said:

That is where I see the problem. You need 'x' amount of power to maintain 'x' amount of mass in null or anti gravity state.

 

Much more likely just X amount to run a certain size AGG.

[Warlander]

44 minutes ago, Deintus said:

That is where I see the problem. You need 'x' amount of power to maintain 'x' amount of mass in null or anti gravity state.

 

Thats why you should need the appropriate number of grav pads to lift the mass of a ship for both the ability to lift it as well as speed. The size of the AGG should reduce the number of gravpads or add more speed. It does not need to be near the 300kmph it was but like 25-50kmph would be optimal through talents.