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Warp removing any risk from pvp needs to end.


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On 1/10/2021 at 12:42 PM, Shredder said:

Yup, it’s ridiculous. People are only complaining about the prospect of the safe zone being removed because it’s what they’re used to. If it wasn’t there in the first place around the outer planets, then there would be a bigger margin for high tier ores, and the carebears wouldn’t care because they’ve got allioth 

Lol if they open up Alioth to Territory Wars this game is finished like 1-2 months after that. No doubt in my mind.

 

For funzies I decided to check the usual gold farming suspects pages to see what all this effort is worth monitarily.

 

Turns out that 100-125 million h goes for $100 and scales by how much you buy with a discount %. Turns out warp cells are $25-30 for 5k cells. Turns out ore sells for T1 for 500kl for $10-15 and goes up quickly for smaller and smaller volumes. Turns out Thorium sells for $250-500 per LITER.

 

Turns out it could cost me $25 of real money to bypass PvP and use fast travel. Turns out the ships I make are $100 a pop. Turns out the 1.26kt loads I was hauling were about $38.48.

 

Beyond that you can pretty much get anything you want on those sites and just looking how much effort or real world money investment to how quickly it is destroyed is the real issue here. If I lose a ship with a full load im out $140 with just T1 mats factored in and knowing that I could pretty much be losing out on $250+ of real monitary worth.

 

No wonder they want to take away the $25 priveledge to warp since they can sieze shipments and make the equivelent of a weeks worth of pay if they worked a job multiple times a day depending on who they hit. Or that most of the stuff siezed from Territory wars will end up on here too when mega orgs ransack everything they can pillage.

 

If and when Alioth is stripped of PvP protection being the largest planet in the solar system as a home world will be catastropic and game ending for a large majority of people who dont care about the pirana PvP group ambush gankfest if it costs them potentially hundreds in real world $ to dip their toe in or put the work in constructing a warship to lose it in 3 mins after whoever gets missle locked first loses $100.

 

The real monetary cost of this game is real for the effort that goes into doing the most simplist of things. The system NQ has set up in DU is a gold farmers dream game apparently.

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In the end this just goes back to core issues with PvP. 

 

1) Its incredibly cost prohibitive for small groups to get into. Even a rough time for large orgs. We can't expect good pvp content if the majority of the player base can't even afford to participate. Even if do find a fight its not like you get a whole lot of the fight. Some half used elements and some ammo if you're lucky. 

 

2) PvP is most fun at the current non-meta points. Small core non cube fights are some of the best. Unfortunately the game is designed to punish that play style tbh. The recent changes didn't do much to push back on flying brick designs. Gold is still way too strong and if you're fighting an M core or above thats built for PvP, time to kill starts getting measured in hours. Large weapons are still pretty much the go to unless you're trying to minmax to the finest details. 

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Right now we have massive amounts of resources tied up in our major mining operations and factories.  A truly mind boggling amount of quanta is tied up in all of it.  The idea of even tempting to risk some of it to pvp is laughable.  You are insane if you think we would risk a 300-500 million quanta operation on an outskirt planet to pvp if there was any serious chance of losing that much investment to a handful of bored lane campers and their cheap gank ship.  It's just not going to happen.  We probably would never trust a pvp org to guard us since they are notorious for turning on their benefactors for the lulz alone (and i'm sure guard duty would be even more boring than gank duty).  Most would rather quit playing than lose a fleet of haulers and prospectors every time they go out. Take away safe warping and at best you would drive us to using cheap throw away mining ships that are bringing back a mere 5KT of ore at a time on some slow boat lane, and thats going to get boring real fast for all parties

 

Right now the cost of moving ore in significant quantities is just too expensive ship wise.  Too much to invest to ever risk losing.  Thats not even speaking about the dozens of hours spent mining out all the ore over several days.  All down the drain.   Make building our mega haulers a bit easier and cheaper to replace and we might consider riskier tactics in getting it home.  But if you make it common to lose all of that on a regular basis without some way of getting our ships up and running without a massive investment, then the pvp orgs will have to take turns being the miner in the barrel  because the major mining orgs will just go find something else to do with their time.  Nobody is going to put up with that.

 

 

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By reading all these posts and many others it is clear there are a lot of different views on how PvP or Non-PvP should emerge in DU but one thing is coming back every time, the cost of it all and that the cost of it all is the biggest hinderence to actual gameplay, whether you are on the PVP side or the non-PVP side, miner, creator you name it.

 

I propose to open a petition to NQ With a very simple question, nothing too fancy: "Please make Time invested in DU worthwile by reducing overal costs in creating ships and buildings".

 

Alternatively this will also probably reduce the gold sellers as margins plumeth and will inspire PvP as losses are manageble. Moreover will this help the economy because everyone loves to keep industry rolling so the surplus needs to go somewhere. Only reason not to would be in my perspective if the goldsellers are actual NQ people or affiliated.

 

It all comes down to what was already said, would you risk a 200 euro/dollar ship? probably not.  Would you risk a ship thats net worth is a cup of coffee and maybe a donut?  I would, wouldn't you?

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It also boils down to adding more ways to get ore between nodes that generate a passibe pool of random mats and spawn rates of rocks below the surface like above but slightly larger when you dig causing blockages but also new ways to get ore. Such as you dig and you run across a 5l gold nugget. Its not going to break the game vs a 250L iron rock right next to it. Its still under a basic grab but requires the use of a harvesting tool. Or spawning gems in the same manner. You dig it spawns. Or they pop up over time in a dead tunnel making all this empty space potential mines in of themselves of random ore rocks and gems.

 

But also Sifting so that you can also dig the dirt between normal large voxel ore nodes for 1-25 T1 mats or a rare random chance for 1-5L of T5 mats. The idea is that everything is made out of soil and there might not be any ore for km in any direction at least you can gain something while you mine in addition to the rocks/gems.

 

But also that by using the harvest tool to mine a ore rock could do different hazard triggers from just triggering a 16/16m-128x128m teravoxel fill to occur and fill in a small to good size area automatically to fill in some of the holes but also to spawn the same size heal function with lava, radioactive material, explosions from a methane pocket or any number of other interesting twists.

 

The general idea is that the grind is real and there needs to be a supplimental amount of renewable ore to fill the gap and lessen the costs and amount of progress being made.

 

The only other option would be to have expansions where since the first initial pass of world generation seems to be from the surface to roughly 1000m deep the devs could simply just generate roughly another km deep layer of mats under the initial layer and when needed spawn layers under that if they can have the resource generation tool target specific depth ranges and and refill the game if needed as some kind of resource expansion later down the road.

 

Either way the red tape is getting in the way of having to choose do I put minimal gains made into a base, industry, ships, playing the market, expand territory at 2mil a pop to put down in addition to the TU when it should just be factored into the price of the unit and dropped at whatever cost it currently sells at, and being pulled in too many directions just trying to make a legit set up the first time industry, and just being pulled in 15 directions at once for no real gain because you still need to do everything and maintain the base requirements of ore mining to keep it going. Its just too much and clerver use of systems in game already with a little tweaking and a sifting mining tool is really all thats needed to both slow miners down from getting to nodes with rocks that spawn in your way as you mine but also that the soils are a new potential source of ore as well that is largely thrown away as is.

 

 

I think that the P2P transactions or selling burner ships is a potential unseen source of income if you get 1-3 uses out of it or it comes with a bunch of options like a car dealership for size, grade, putdowns, etc that could scale the value or put weapons loadouts and options on is also a good solution to cutting though red tape. People are already doing this and NQ should take their cut of free money people are willing to give.

 

These two solutions would pretty much solve about 60-70% of the issues. The other 30% being the market. To fix that everyone needs scaling finite selling limits to how much volume you can buy or sell both per day but also a weekly finite pool you can burn though in a day or rolls over if you dont use it. It should be per market. This scaling system should have a quota for the week of what you can sell. If you make the quota your limit goes up in that market. If you dont hit the quota it goes down to the point of the base daily limit. There should be liscenses you can buy to cut through the red tape per market to raise the limit if you know you can sell that much volume per week. If you hit it you keep it if you cant then you wasted a permit for that week.

 

The biggest issue with the market is that there is so much going up there that there is nothing to make people want to fight to get the wartime economy going due to no factions. This system will inherantly only allow the server to sell what can reliably be sold by consumers and create equilibrium between supply and demand in each and every market because it forces people to diversify and break into new markets unless you get a weekly volume limit raise permit. The idea is not to kill the market as much as it is to finally get real marketplace access in static cores and being able to get people to fly out to other peoples bases to make deals, barter, or buy in their market. Or that once those avenues are exausted and there is still excess items in circulation there should be nothing stopping people from pvping if there were like 4 solar system factions and a central solar system to fight over like hungry hungry hippos.

 

If each faction has their own starting homeworld and allied unified faction they could pool resources or run as a bunch of guilds working together in combat, defense, mining, production, and bse building if missions were from the faction as well as the players but the faction payed out the best for worthwhile jobs or suddenly generating a gold rush event or a pvp hotzone to occur or anomolies that kill warp capabilities randomly, other times disable weapons do to magnetic anomolies, space weather, and other random things. If territory only mattered to the home team solar system everyone who comes in is pretty much an enemy who has no rights and can be destroyed.

 

The opposing side would have to claim territory for their side as well since the perms only keep your players from doing bad things to you but since you are allied and cant kill each other its pointless anyways. And since you arent constantly killing your own side you can then focus fire on a greater enemy or the small rogue factions that break away from the main faction to become pirates or mercs for all the other factions as corsairs.

 

If all those things are changed this game is back on track and can cut a ton of tedium and grind to open up the game for better things. Or they could keep sufficating their player base with a pillow while they keep telling me my play style is bad and one of these times im not going to revive. One of these times the cost of playing and losing $100s worth of assets makes it impossible to do anything unless you were part of the alpha test gold rush before anyone else knew what was happening. Its too much.

 

4 hours of grind to get done what you need to in a day should be the goal to be able to feed machines for a day.

8 hours of grind should get you pretty caught up on some kind of side project

12 hours of grind should be good enough to get ahead for the day even if tomorrow your odds arent so good. Law of averages and all.

 

I should not be expected to play 10hrs a day to do basically nothing fun for months but mine mine mine, spend on a handful of things, mine mne mine for hundreds of hours a month and feel like I have not really accomplished anything in the 4-5 months I have played and still not have a fully functional industry yet that can make even a full set of ship parts to maintain even a basic fleet. Its just not my fault that to do what the devs expect to run a legit 1 button press and done insustry with future content considered we are forced to craft something like the tune of 500L containers for our industry alone not to mention about another 200 L containes for various other vehicles, hauler, walking cores, or just teravoxel/honeycomb storage.

 

Its fun and all but the item bloat schematic creep is still a bit too much for a 3 man crew let alone a 10-20 man crew to keep the furnace firing on all cylenders.

 

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3 minutes ago, Warlander said:

4 hours of grind to get done what you need to in a day should be the goal to be able to feed machines for a day.

8 hours of grind should get you pretty caught up on some kind of side project

12 hours of grind should be good enough to get ahead for the day even if tomorrow your odds arent so good. Law of averages and all.

That I think kind of achilles heel of DU. Time to fun ratio. And how slow fun loop is with current systems. 

 

Game obviously have some "fanatical" core of players, who grind and play A LOT (and can go super agressive against "casualization"). I do not know their personal situations, but it seems to be mix of "1 game [nerds] players", "retired greybeards" or people who unemployed or have some nice time tables to burn. I self-employed myself with sort of home office work (so can afford some gaming sins), but struggle quite a bit with DU time-eating-grinding things.

 

But most others, while for some time captured by game concept and very entusiasthic, can't handle this level of exaustion (that pile up eventualy). And they not even some filthy casuals, but just people will less time or interests in other games. So they drop-off one by one. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Warlander said:

Lol if they open up Alioth to Territory Wars this game is finished like 1-2 months after that. No doubt in my mind.

 

For funzies I decided to check the usual gold farming suspects pages to see what all this effort is worth monitarily.

 

Turns out that 100-125 million h goes for $100 and scales by how much you buy with a discount %. Turns out warp cells are $25-30 for 5k cells. Turns out ore sells for T1 for 500kl for $10-15 and goes up quickly for smaller and smaller volumes. Turns out Thorium sells for $250-500 per LITER.

 

Turns out it could cost me $25 of real money to bypass PvP and use fast travel. Turns out the ships I make are $100 a pop. Turns out the 1.26kt loads I was hauling were about $38.48.

 

Beyond that you can pretty much get anything you want on those sites and just looking how much effort or real world money investment to how quickly it is destroyed is the real issue here. If I lose a ship with a full load im out $140 with just T1 mats factored in and knowing that I could pretty much be losing out on $250+ of real monitary worth.

 

No wonder they want to take away the $25 priveledge to warp since they can sieze shipments and make the equivelent of a weeks worth of pay if they worked a job multiple times a day depending on who they hit. Or that most of the stuff siezed from Territory wars will end up on here too when mega orgs ransack everything they can pillage.

 

If and when Alioth is stripped of PvP protection being the largest planet in the solar system as a home world will be catastropic and game ending for a large majority of people who dont care about the pirana PvP group ambush gankfest if it costs them potentially hundreds in real world $ to dip their toe in or put the work in constructing a warship to lose it in 3 mins after whoever gets missle locked first loses $100.

 

The real monetary cost of this game is real for the effort that goes into doing the most simplist of things. The system NQ has set up in DU is a gold farmers dream game apparently.

I never said alioth should be stripped of pvp protection. The inner three planets should always have pvp protection. That’s where people can live if they don’t like pvp.
 

It’s the outer planets that should have pvp protection greatly reduced. If people don’t want to pvp, then don’t go to the outer planets. The risk reward should then be increased by increasing the amount of higher tier ores that’s needed to make stuff. If people don’t want to risk the pvp zone then they can just buy it off the market.

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1 hour ago, Shredder said:

It’s the outer planets that should have pvp protection greatly reduced.

 

When Territory warfare comes in, the safezones around the outer planets will go away, we know this and have always known this. There is no dispute or argument here. 

 

Now, thinking/expecting  that once that happens you can just pewpew anywhere above or on the planet is a different matter but the safezone itself will be gone.

 

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39 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

When Territory warfare comes in, the safezones around the outer planets will go away, we know this and have always known this. There is no dispute or argument here. 

 

Now, thinking/expecting  that once that happens you can just pewpew anywhere above or on the planet is a different matter but the safezone itself will be gone.

 

Yes, this is planned, however territory warfare is some way off.

 

What I am arguing is that the safe zone around the outer planets should be reduced NOW and limited to the surface/atmosphere of the planets/moons themselves. Warping to of from those planets should be dangerous right now. If people end up travelling there less because they don’t like the risk, then ore prices will increase, leading to a reason to take on that risk. 
 

I don’t get the rationale for the level of PVP Protection currently around the outer planets. 

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it is clearly risk based, and nobody with a non-PVP mindset will risk their stuff blownup so somebody can sell their goods on the internet as goldseller (proof of goldsellers DU provided in the post(link removed according to EULA).

Now i dont expect the nice people on this forum to be the sellers, but its a simple risk based.

 

-A What is the severity of the risk

10- effects may cause a serious adverse effect like permanent disability

8- effect may cause significant impact on the product/build

6- effect is noticible and may render use unable of the product/build

4- effect is noticable and may hinder use of product/build

2- effect will have negligible effect

 

-B What is the propability of occurence

10- certain to occur routinely

8- Occurs frequently

6- Occurs occasionaly

4- Occurs not often

2- unlikely to occur

 

And then everything above A*B=12 is a risk and everything above A*B=36 should be concidered a critical risk what leads to the next:

 

-What can i do to mitigate the risk?

 

Well that is upto you

 

But lets say i fly with my 300 million ship fully loaded with thoramine without safety of warp with the knowledge gankers/pirates and possible goldsellers are after me, what then:

 

The risk would be to get shotdown and loose the ship and the cargo:

A 10- effects may cause a serious adverse effect like permanent disability (as the ship is destroyed and cargo lost also meaning the additional loss of having to rebuild.)

B 10- certain to occur routinely (from witness reports we know that ships flying throug PVP zones are killed very routinely so chance of occurence is highest possible)

 

Ranking: A*B=100 Mitigation is needed to reduce risk

 

And now why is it so lucrative to kill miners and everyone else who flies through a non sanctuary zone, Not because the market profits

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Shredder said:

What I am arguing is that the safe zone around the outer planets should be reduced NOW

 

For what reason?

As long as NQ does not have the required counters implemented which will mitigate the risk to an acceptable level for non  combatant players, safezones will need to stay in place.

 

 

Also, RMT is not allowed for DU, mentioning methods or posting/providing links is actually a breach of TOS.

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3 hours ago, Shredder said:

Yes, this is planned, however territory warfare is some way off.

 

What I am arguing is that the safe zone around the outer planets should be reduced NOW and limited to the surface/atmosphere of the planets/moons themselves. Warping to of from those planets should be dangerous right now. If people end up travelling there less because they don’t like the risk, then ore prices will increase, leading to a reason to take on that risk. 
 

I don’t get the rationale for the level of PVP Protection currently around the outer planets. 

Exactly.

 

The atmo PVP is not ready but why there is atmo 2.5su away from the planets? It's like 10% planet 90% atmo of it.

Making the PVP safe up until you leave the atmosphere makes sense. That will make outer space really outer space not some kindergarten with bears drawing circles.

You can still mine safely when you are there.

You will need to either be smart when you want to leave the planet with your ore OR maybe, just maybe cooperate with other players for it in an MMO game ?

 

We were sold a PVP game(I got to the game because of some ad telling me that in DU you can PVP better than in any other game). We pay for sub now, why we get nothing of what we are promised and what we have ALREADY paid for?

The kickstater part was promising only sanctuary moon as safe zone, that what people pleaded for. We now have ALL the system one big boring as crap safezone.

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1 hour ago, XKentX said:

The kickstater part was promising only sanctuary moon as safe zone, that what people pleaded for. We now have ALL the system one big boring as crap safezone.

Indeed, best to go back to basic and from there see where it goes. we did sign up for something, there are logical changes and some based on loud noice but frankly sometimes one person can scream louder then a hundred and well from some memerable moments in this beta where some people were very very lucky i would say there is smoke for favourism. Hope I am wrong but if that is actually here, well sent me back my cash asap. I am Not going to play a game where developers favour some players so much that they have an advantage over others. still having an advanced guard of players that are picked in beta where you already told there would be No wipe is not the move I would make.

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

For what reason?

As long as NQ does not have the required counters implemented which will mitigate the risk to an acceptable level for non  combatant players, safezones will need to stay in place.

 

 

Also, RMT is not allowed for DU, mentioning methods or posting/providing links is actually a breach of TOS.

Required counters? Sure there are!  If safe space was removed which led to you having to travel 2su through the pvp zone after warping, you can:


Use voxel tank to soak up damage, it’s super cheap and if you put a bunch on it’s easy to tank for 2 su. 

You can make your ship fast to reduce the travel time, with good acceleration and braking you can easily limit the time spent in that PVP zone, making it very difficult for enemies to put much damage down on you.

 

You can scout - a common occurrence in PVP games, send something fast and tanky through ahead to see if there are campers. You can also do this to lead people away.


You can warp to a moon first instead of a planet, avoiding the place that people are most likely to be.

 

Or, if you really don’t want to take any shots at all, you can simply slow boat it at a wide angle, travelling 29,999. Pretty much impossible to die if you don’t do anything silly.
 

When compared to the start of eve online this game is balanced massively in the favour of people wanting to avoid fights. Even if the safe zone was removed. It’s kinda ridiculous. People might read the above and go ‘well those options are hassle’. But the more hassle or risk there is, the greater the rewards will end up being. I find it bizzare that NQ don’t seem to want to allow pvp to occur.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Shredder said:

I never said alioth should be stripped of pvp protection. The inner three planets should always have pvp protection. That’s where people can live if they don’t like pvp.
 

It’s the outer planets that should have pvp protection greatly reduced. If people don’t want to pvp, then don’t go to the outer planets. The risk reward should then be increased by increasing the amount of higher tier ores that’s needed to make stuff. If people don’t want to risk the pvp zone then they can just buy it off the market.

I know im just saying that Sanctuary was the only slated PvP free zone and if that ever gets dropped its litterally game over.

 

This is a war economy game that is supposed to burn off the excess market supply with tons of pvp. The problem is as I said earlier is a RTS game in which all your military units want to kill off all your villagers and you cant progress as a civ if you never are collecting anything because your whole side is constantly enguaged in friendly fire rather than pulling together to fight another enemy in a distant sector of space.

 

The first problem is the time/effort/costs associated with industry and just keeping the lights on while being divided into 8 pieces and getting fractionalized into oblivion.

 

The second problem is lack of factions or organized PvP in which everyone cant attack each other, they can however attack and gang up on anyone else who comes into a solar system.

 

The third problem is space to fight in as there needs to be more than 1 solar system to house 2 factions bare minimum. Optimally its two homeworld solar systems and another solar system in the middle they can both fight over as a no mans land. And if it is set up right its like 4 solar systems, 3-4 factions or 2 empty solar systems away from the North/Middle/South that are occupied with two different types of aliens who constantly battle themselves and whoever is in the way in the middle or invading player run solar systems so that mass pvp and invasions can occur or that there is like a jackpot effect where there is so much stuff up for grabs the military pushing into other solar systems has enough to loot and pillage to bring back to keep things going.

 

The Fourth problem is the markets. with finite weekly limits and pushing the excess to player run markets, vending machines, and trade to more markets since the limit is in each market until you can carve out a wholesaler/distributor role in each of them will balance the market if people can only reliably sell or buy so much and since it was supposed to be about P2P player run markets it works out for everyone in the end if we got player markets and people could come buy/sell at your market and you recieve a sub tax in addition to the normal taxes for hosting there to take some of the excess to put there.

 

The fifth problem is lack of consistent resources or additional resources which make the progression faster to get to the point for any size org to at least be able to produce a set of parts to keep their fleet running with just basic parts. Its pretty much impossible and wasting if you even think about trying to make static/dynamic cores with the strip mining that has occured and will constinue to occur unless another 1km layer of mats is added below the surface to 1km depth. Considering you cant even use the 2.25km constainer range down below the surface needs to change as well as adding sifting and various size rocks and gems to suppliment some ore of all types that is random and % based spawns based by tier.

 

The Sixth problem this game is facing is lack of some kind of Alternate Advancement to have some kind of augmented stats based on the 90 exp per min we have and cloning that amount but calling it augmented advancement in which you can spend that exp as it adds up to bolster stats on items. Since it its temporary buying say lift stats with the exp or links on a transfer unit, or resistances on other items like old leveling systems or character advancement in older games. Since most parts blow up in 1-3-5 crashes it is short lived or you could pour all your exp into some kind of part/machine/tool to turn the basic tools into its own progression tht just adds stats since mining tool is standard issue and needs some way to make it better over time which could be augmented advancement.

 

The seventh problem with this game is the brutal reception new players get right off the bat that is a wanna be survival game type start but is just a massive mountain of mining grind and tedium the moment you get in. New players need at least a month of de-scaling buff that give them an awakening Talent buff that has T5 for a week, T4 the next week, T3 the week after that, T2 the week after that, T1 the last week before you are a normal person so a new player gets to experience what it like to be super strong for 1 month and 1 week along with getting some kind of tricked out magic blueprint for a sstarfighter, hauler, speed ship, some cores, and a magic blueprint for some kind of XS-S static core with some furnishings and a starter industry set up for scrap/gas rations. That should be way more than enough to bring in people to test the game make them feel good long enough before the buffs fade out (I figure the first 5 mil exp is sufficient).

 

The seventh problem is no real need to play this game you can go into a coma and still be churning out 90 exp qued up for everything in the game and you dont have to spend agonizing amount of time waiting 2 weeks to a month for 1 T5 skill to bake. They just skip all that tedium and come back with full efficiency. I think if you are actually logged into the game there should be more given to you then someone who is perpetually in a coma. I think there needs to be some kind of catch up system in place since it should help to get people up to speed with the rest of the people and expected talents and get people through all the bs depending on if they are top 10 for the average of how much catch up people need but then by what 25% bracket you fall into.

 

The eigth problem is lack of mini game type things such as if you attack my ship its missle lock which I can do anything and nothing else to slow down pvp or make these $25-100+ ships at least have some kind of security system that requires encryption/decryption that requires multiple people to crack since as soon as you start to decrypt and break encryption the auto security self destruct sequence should begin. If you break encryption fast enough then you keep what you kill and if you fail you lose the prize and also potentially damage your ship if you arent prepared with a proper boarding crew. Or the fact that most pvpers want to gank large hauls or whatever they can find. Problem is without fortified haulers or auto turrets the only option I really want is self destruct sequence to destry my cargo before it comes down to core encryption/decryptions since I would rather nobody got the $100+ ship or the other $50 in cargo aboard. It should be my choice and my choice alone if I want to light $150 on fire. But if itsnt any kind of dog fights, fighter vs bombers, fighters vs battleships and heavy guns, then the haulers should be flying fortresses with defensive weapon platforms to at least slow PvP down along with traps to at least cause PvPers some kind of chance of mutually assured destruction to occur rather than being mugged for $150 and nothing to make them pay for it if all they do is drop a core and take over everything without risk. It can cost me 32mil h to avoid pvp you should have some risk of spending as much as you gain to in order to fight me, get past my defenses, and potentially still lose everything and damage or blwo up your ship and lose potentially $100+ too.

 

If they do all that this game instantly becomes more available to many more people. Not to mention more people to pvp.

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16 minutes ago, Shredder said:

 

When compared to the start of eve online this game is balanced massively in the favour of people wanting to avoid fights. Even if the safe zone was removed. It’s kinda ridiculous. People might read the above and go ‘well those options are hassle’. But the more hassle or risk there is, the greater the rewards will end up being. I find it bizzare that NQ don’t seem to want to allow pvp to occur.

 

 

Firstly ,can not call ganking Cargo ships PVP,  secondly no armor will save one from well armed pirate. Thirdly, this whole topic is a consequence of so called Pvpers killing everything that moves without regards to the people on the receiving end, which in turn driven everyone, who didnt loose everything with the ship and quit as a result , to use warp drives.

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5 minutes ago, Warlander said:

 

The eigth problem is lack of mini game type things such as if you attack my ship its missle lock which I can do anything and nothing else to slow down pvp or make these $25-100+ ships at least have some kind of security system that requires encryption/decryption that requires multiple people to crack since as soon as you start to decrypt and break encryption the auto security self destruct sequence should begin.

 

We actually don't need that in the game since you can just delete items out of your cargo hold.  Thats actually a discussion we have had for our corps cargo haulers and we are thinking about implementing it in the event that pvp becomes unavoidable.  Simply deleting our cargo the moment it looks like we might lose one of our M-core haulers.  They can get the elements (now with all at least 1 strike against almost all of it) but the 4 or 5 mega nodes in the cargo hold will be deleted into nothing and the pirates will assume they attacked an empty ship as we respawn back at base.  Why would we ever allow them to have the ore we just spent weeks acquiring?  Let them enjoy the elements they cant sell on the market instead.

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15 minutes ago, Shredder said:

I find it bizarre that NQ don’t seem to want to allow pvp to occur.

 

You argue from the perspective of a PVP focused player and I get that. some of these arguments really do not work for "the other side" though  as they impact the viability and margins on the activity. PVP is currently incomplete, we know this and NQ has already stated what is coming. until they complete their plan, the safe zone stays in place. Ranges of weapons are such that as a camping PVP player you can easily reach others in quite a wide area so your arguments are really not as valid as they may seem. What is needed (and coming according to NQ)is ECM such as radar jamming, lock braking mechanics and I hope something like decoys. It would also be great if we'd get voxel material with stealthy abilities which may be expensive but would reduce the chance of a successful lock.

 

I still do not understand why some combat PVP focused players seem to keep asking for access to non combatant players instead of finding and engaging with like minded players. The mechanics are far from ready for safe zones to be removed and right now the chances are severely on the side of the attacker in this case.

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4 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

I still do not understand why some combat PVP focused players seem to keep asking for access to non combatant players instead of finding and engaging with like minded players. The mechanics are far from ready for safe zones to be removed and right now the chances are severely on the side of the attacker in this case.

 

This bit is actually kind of funny because we had a talk about this in discord with some of the "ex-pvp" players who joined our guild from one of the other major orgs.  We were brainstorming for ways to secure our ships beyond the current system (odd lane traffic, warp cells eating into our profit, ect) and one of the things they suggested was merely putting on a couple long range guns.  I thought they meant slugging it out with the pirates which I knew would be pointless.  But no.  They said almost all the pvp'ers are not looking for a fight (with a few exceptions). They just want the ship as an easy target.  They said that if there is almost ANY chance that they might lose their ship in the process (which is apparently extremely expensive on their end) then they would probably back off. 

We thought that was hilarious but they were dead serious:  "if you target their ships, pop them a couple times with a long range weapon before they get in range, they will probably back off and go wait for somebody easier".  So we are taking that into consideration for our cargo ships.

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2 minutes ago, Revelcro said:

We thought that was hilarious but they were dead serious:  "if you target their ships, pop them a couple times with a long range weapon before they get in range, they will probably back off and go wait for somebody easier".  So we are taking that into consideration for our cargo ships.

 

Just vectoring into the approaching "PVP player" is often enough for them to back off as I have mentioned before since it is true that there is a good number of players who really are not looking for fights, just kills and so they have a vested interest in NQ making non combatant players "available".

 

As far as I understood, using anything beyond XS guns wil require a separate gunner seat and thus an additional crew member who then has little to do except sit in the chair and do what you mention. It is my opinion that "bring guns of your own" is really not the answer and the options NQ has announced as far as ECM are much more suitable in that regard. hardening your ship (protect core/pilot seat etc..) is an option but IMO not a counter, it is a pre-emptive measure.

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33 minutes ago, Revelcro said:

 

We actually don't need that in the game since you can just delete items out of your cargo hold.  Thats actually a discussion we have had for our corps cargo haulers and we are thinking about implementing it in the event that pvp becomes unavoidable.  Simply deleting our cargo the moment it looks like we might lose one of our M-core haulers.  They can get the elements (now with all at least 1 strike against almost all of it) but the 4 or 5 mega nodes in the cargo hold will be deleted into nothing and the pirates will assume they attacked an empty ship as we respawn back at base.  Why would we ever allow them to have the ore we just spent weeks acquiring?  Let them enjoy the elements they cant sell on the market instead.

You delete cargo, no problem. I logoff 5 alts at your new ship with inventory full of catalyst 3 until you give me the same back(I will decide what it was). Deal ?

 

You deny me spoils of war I deny your mobility(30kt of weight). Who gonna cry to NQ you think ?

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27 minutes ago, Revelcro said:

 

We actually don't need that in the game since you can just delete items out of your cargo hold.  Thats actually a discussion we have had for our corps cargo haulers and we are thinking about implementing it in the event that pvp becomes unavoidable.  Simply deleting our cargo the moment it looks like we might lose one of our M-core haulers.  They can get the elements (now with all at least 1 strike against almost all of it) but the 4 or 5 mega nodes in the cargo hold will be deleted into nothing and the pirates will assume they attacked an empty ship as we respawn back at base.  Why would we ever allow them to have the ore we just spent weeks acquiring?  Let them enjoy the elements they cant sell on the market instead.

1 salvo of missles pretty much can destroy an M class with like 6 missles or one round of fire. Being largely defenseless because of the talent tree requires additional securty lines of defense. Since most people log off and sleep during the 8+ hr flight time and you have to leave to beat pvp traffic, change lanes, and get there while most pvpers are also sleeping means that I have to do 20x more work and so should pvpers.

 

If 6 missles is all it takes after like 3 mins of trailing and missile lock and it pretty much kills everyone on board tell me at what point you get the chance to delete all the cargo when most of that is already destroyed and gone?

 

There needs to be a legit security system with self destruct to give you pvpers some work to do. Just launching a hand full of missles hardly qualifies as having to make a boarding party to secure the ship if you only just have to drop a new core and not have to fight my security system piece by piece or set tup in sections.

 

Like I said it costs me around 32mil h to avoid pvp the least PvPers can do is break the encryption to sieze a ship or blow up in the process since you shouldnt be able to take an L core with just one person in a star fighter if it takes like 12 missles to down it.

 

Sack lunch handouts are not PvP.

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7 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

As far as I understood, using anything beyond XS guns wil require a separate gunner seat and thus an additional crew member who then has little to do except sit in the chair and do what you mention. It is my opinion that "bring guns of your own" is really not the answer and the options NQ has announced as far as ECM are much more suitable in that regard. hardening your ship (protect core/pilot seat etc..) is an option but IMO not a counter, it is a pre-emptive measure.

 

Independent ore runners typically run solo but any of the major haulers run a half dozen crew that is already bored out of their minds (its a long trip jack).  So sticking a couple of them on gunner detail (with low skills though) would be a perk in their books most likely.

 

6 minutes ago, XKentX said:

You delete cargo, no problem. I logoff 5 alts at your ship with inventory full of catalyst 3 until you give me a ride to wherever I want to go. Deal ?

 

Oh geez we got Cat-3 coming out of our ears thanks to skill boosting making excess constantly.   We gotta experiment with that now.

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