Warp removing any risk from pvp needs to end.

[Maxim Kammerer]

8 hours ago, XKentX said:

There should be something (atm T4/T5 ore) that is ONLY accessible in PVP areas.

PvP is only accessible in PvP areas. You want PvP? Stick to PvP area. What's the problem?

 

8 hours ago, XKentX said:

You don't want PVP ? Stick to safe zone mine t3 buy t4/t5.

That's exactly how DU is advertised (see above). It seems DU is not the right game for you. It can't be the PvP heaven you are looking for. Everything you are destroying needs to be build by other players. This is only possible if destroying is much more difficult than building or if there is much more non-PVP than PvP. That means in order to make the game a success NQ needs to keep everybody out who is just looking for easy pray - either out of safezones or out of the game.

[Aaron Cain]

6 hours ago, Warlander said:

Lol I just wonder if NQ tomorrow was like we are adding a no combat PvE server how many people would instantly migrate there just to avoid this terrible pvp grief system. Or hell how many people would come back or new people it would bring in. Hell if NQ would use crowd sourcing for world generation and open up a free build themed server for future solar systems or to add specific landmarks, PoI's, easter eggs, and structures how many more it would bring in.

You just described the space engineer server options where you need to fix those yourself.

 

Problem with DU is that they had a clear vision, nice kickstarter goals and alot of people here reacted to that and the possible awesomeness of the implications. But now we have a sort of kickstarter version .23X and it does not resemble what most of us signed up for. But after investing between 5 euros/dollars/whatever and 4000 the same players have not much other options then just accept and play. But frankly the information and sales talk when i invested was completely different from where we stand now, it is abit going for a top of the line watercooled gaming PC and paying for it and then a few weeks later they sent a calculation board with an industrial fan, monopoly and a small tv and still take all your cash. And when you ask what that is they just tell you you can place it all together in a small space and combine the use.

 

[blazemonger]

7 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

Problem with DU is that they had a clear vision, nice kickstarter goals and alot of people here reacted to that and the possible awesomeness of the implications. But now we have a sort of kickstarter version .23X and it does not resemble what most of us signed up for.

 

This wil be long and off topic so just skip if you are not up for a rant. I honestly do not feel like starting yet another thread on this as it wil not go anywhere anyway.

 

 

I honestly  never had the illusion NQ would be able to do what they said they would in the kickstarter, not in the manner they pitched it and absolutely not in the timeframe they claimed they would. Everything about it screamed "we have a dream, here it is" without showing any ability or ideas on how to get there. And that is pretty much what we got. Nd I expected as much going in but was sold on the " we will be open and transparent

 

Their server tech is really good on paper and frankly, the game server itself runs very well indeed.  The problems lie in the backend which is grossly inadequate for what it needs to do and as I see it NQ's Achilles heel is their inability to make the backend do what it needs to for the game to work the way they envisioned. And as pre-alpha and Alpha progressed that became increasingly clear and it is painfully obvious now, with major nerfs and limitations put in place over the past 5+ months to keep the backend alive.

 

NQ quickly stopped being "open and transparent on the development process" and this caused player's expectations to become facts and with it some started selling the game as a PVP game, others as a building game and many simply have or got the wrong expectations and ideas about the game. NQ meanwhile at best sent out cryptic signals on what their vision is because they are afraid to alienate anyone. Their messages are confusing, often contradictory and generally not helpful in this regard. The fact JC told quite a different story about 2021 on his video end of December than he did on the "AMA" early December should tell you how the vision they have is either very unstable, is made up at in the spur of the moment or is simply not there so changes based on who you ask when. Over the past three years we have had 4 commitments that "we know communication has been less than you should be able to expect and we will do better" and all this time nothing has really changed. While they are a live game now, their internal organization seems to be unchanged and certainly their processes 0and what we see have not changed.

 

After the initial firefighting and damage control exercise post 0.23 we have pretty much heard nothing from NQ and they have gone silent as they usually do. They have not learned a single thing from previous  experience and while there is a handful of CM now, some of who are at least trying to make a difference, it feels that he next layer up is stil the same and so noting really happens.

 

Meanwhile it is pretty much the community that keeps the game going by making improvements of which many should at least in a rudimentary form be a basic part of the game.

 

IMO NQ also oversold their vision to investors with a pitch that did get them initial investment for seed and round A in the usual investment process but from there it became clear that the problems they faced were too much to surmount causing severe delays and setbacks and so there was no interest by investors to put more money in and the deadline for round B expired which led to NQ being forced to both drop their plans to make the server tech their main asset and sell it for other purposes (as the tech is good on paper but does not even come close to performing at the scale they claimed) so they shifted from "the metaverse company" to "The DU company" with te game now being the only asset they have to make money with. And as they ran out of money early 2020, they were forced to go public at "beta" which really is still very much an early alpha state stage as far as where the game is. Asking people to pretty much pay you to play what really is a live alpha test is a tough sell and while NQ wil not tell, the actual revenue I can't see being big enough to keep going. I would not at all be surprised if NQ is in double digit millions of debt by now and while that is not a problem in itself, if paying the interest takes away a lot of resources from the budget for development, that would be.

 

Here's what the Kickstarter said:

 

 

Quote

In any case, here is what we can promise you:

- Absolute transparency about the development progress
- 100% of the funding will go to the development of Dual Universe, more specifically to pay the developers & artists. The whole point of Novaquark is Dual Universe, and we are not doing anything else.
- Engage with the community and listen to your feedback, with new and innovative ways to get you directly involved in the roadmap decisions.

 

1. Simply not the case, you can try and spin it as you like but it is not. They were transparent up to the point of pre-alpha start and closed down shortly after that once many of us got a look on the inside a bit more..
2. A silly statement to make as anyone knows that can't be upheld as there is always other cost involved.. so I can let that one go..
3. An absolute joke and has never been met. NQ does not listen to feedback, they may hear it but they do not listen. They also ignore pretty much anything the community suggest and adds. The "upvote page" is a sad attempt and creating an excuse to be able to say they do, but it's not working, if only because it is not tied to players/backers, it is an openly and public access wish list. NQ does not engage with community when good ideas are posted, they do not engage with the community when serious concerns are voiced.

 

Yes, NQ "heard" us many times, sure.. but they did not listen then and are not listening now.

[XKentX]

3 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

You just described the space engineer server options where you need to fix those yourself.

 

Problem with DU is that they had a clear vision, nice kickstarter goals and alot of people here reacted to that and the possible awesomeness of the implications. But now we have a sort of kickstarter version .23X and it does not resemble what most of us signed up for. But after investing between 5 euros/dollars/whatever and 4000 the same players have not much other options then just accept and play. But frankly the information and sales talk when i invested was completely different from where we stand now, it is abit going for a top of the line watercooled gaming PC and paying for it and then a few weeks later they sent a calculation board with an industrial fan, monopoly and a small tv and still take all your cash. And when you ask what that is they just tell you you can place it all together in a small space and combine the use.

 

Kickstarter mentioned only sanctuary moon as safezone, nothing else.

We now have ALL GAME in safe zone let alone parts of baren empty space no one needs.

 

[Shredder]

1 hour ago, XKentX said:

Kickstarter mentioned only sanctuary moon as safezone, nothing else.

We now have ALL GAME in safe zone let alone parts of baren empty space no one needs.

 

Yup, it’s ridiculous. People are only complaining about the prospect of the safe zone being removed because it’s what they’re used to. If it wasn’t there in the first place around the outer planets, then there would be a bigger margin for high tier ores, and the carebears wouldn’t care because they’ve got allioth 

[Fra119]

49 minutes ago, Shredder said:

Yup, it’s ridiculous. People are only complaining about the prospect of the safe zone being removed because it’s what they’re used to. If it wasn’t there in the first place around the outer planets, then there would be a bigger margin for high tier ores, and the carebears wouldn’t care because they’ve got allioth 

If it wasn't there this game would have been dead 1 month into beta. Do you remember the good old analogy of the wolves and the sheeps? You need the goddamn fence to keep your sheeps from being all slaughtered and thus to avoid wolves from starving to death.

 

Territory warfare will remove most of the safe zones, that will be enough.

 

[Warlander]

4 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

You just described the space engineer server options where you need to fix those yourself.

 

Problem with DU is that they had a clear vision, nice kickstarter goals and alot of people here reacted to that and the possible awesomeness of the implications. But now we have a sort of kickstarter version .23X and it does not resemble what most of us signed up for. But after investing between 5 euros/dollars/whatever and 4000 the same players have not much other options then just accept and play. But frankly the information and sales talk when i invested was completely different from where we stand now, it is abit going for a top of the line watercooled gaming PC and paying for it and then a few weeks later they sent a calculation board with an industrial fan, monopoly and a small tv and still take all your cash. And when you ask what that is they just tell you you can place it all together in a small space and combine the use.

 

I keep saying that this game is a PvE game or more specifically a PvC or player vs crafting with PvE as an afterthought. The PvP is the worst ive ever seen imo and ive played prolly at least 60 PvP MMOs not to mention most of the best this industry had to offer and this just does not stack up to even the worst PvP games I have played. They are litterally reinventing the wheel here just a loooooooot more drawn out for no reason.

 

at brass tacks regardless of genre you have classes and professions. These two are not the same. A role is a pilot, miner, fighter pilot. The industry should reinforce one of those three roles not work against you or make 90% of the people in the game unable to fight. We all need to fight in some way. We also need to craft to reinforce each role. The biggest mistake they made was not having Pilot/Mechanic. Miner/Refiner, and Fighter Pilot/Gunner and then layer the industry after that so you make mining parts, ship parts, and starfighter parts independent and make sense.

 

What they have created is a PvE server with PvP as an after thought. Most of their game is gathering/crafting based. If PvP were not unorganized zerg chaos it could potentially be fun enough in a faction setting. The issue is you never get out of the gun of resource gathering and crafting to ever get to the PvP game. Or even if you do what is the point? Grief newbies in a killing fieldd outside Alioth? That is not PvP. It cant happen without factions and players will never organically create that or PvP without an allied safety net so that there are clearly defined sides and enemies vs having to watch your back all the time for your fellow players and never trusting anyone, exploring to see their stuff, making friends, orgs, and fighting for a side. Just aint going to happen the way they think organically.

 

This game is further along then EQN Landmark was in many ways but it still suffers from the same pitfalls of attracting the building genre people who want to come in and build works of art and not really play the game more then they have to in order to accomplish their large visions. No PvCer is going to want to lose the hundreds or thousands of hours of their hard work to be destroyed in seconds and everything stolen from them. Hell most people dont want that. It takes 20x more time and effort just getting the mats, TUs, buying the land for 2mil, setting up an industry, gathering, processing, and crafting honeycombs, elements, and everything else to be able to build large structures and properties just to be destroyed in seconds to minuites. Its like 500x more drawn out or grindy vs PvP.

 

Im not saying PvPers dont go through the same buildup, its just that without being part of a faction you will have no allies, nobody coming to your defense, nobody manning all the turrets and things required to defend a base without being in a megaorg. I will say that if Territory Wars are allowed to ever take place on alioth this game is done.

 

If the devs would have been smart and have Dueling Solar Systems instead of Dual Universes since that obviously is not possible they just need to create 2 starting factions in two connected solar systems and allow people to create their own factions if they dont like the main two factions to become syndicate space pirates or some kind of trade federation. That would instantly make this game more attractible to people who say they like PvP but dont and are usually the first to leave when they get griefed constantly from the start of the game without recourse or the ability for self defense against it with the chance to win.

 

But certainly as well if they had a PvE server that was more about super dangerous conditions, respawnable resources, and making it all about environmental danger or npcs as the aggressor faction it is no different at that point then PvP just in a more enjoyable format for a much larger player base then they would normally have by not offering it. Even the first MMOs knew some people like PvP and a much higher majority of people apparently dont. Its stupid not to offer it aas even a safety net for this terrible shotty stone age PvP system they set up.

 

But the world generation in this game or biome diversity of just tundra and the sediments consisting of sand and snow with no dirt or stone looks ok but it would seem the voxels are limited to like 250 textures and most are clogged up with the other honeycombs for building and Teraforming got shafted. I dont need 40 textures of snow as much as I need stone and its locked into nodes rather then the actual physical construct of the planet. I will say that typical world generation tools create that nice sterile desolate landscape look and all but most studios pay artist a lot of money to do more passes to break of the repetitive patterns.

 

This is why there needs to be a free build server. DU needs to crowd source their content production through a free build server that has all the rest of the game elements taken out and giving the server some kind of theme and letting them run with it to build structures, massive PoI assets. and the finer details NQ wants but does not know how to ask for. Do like 3 months of Teraforming before voxel build mode is granted. After 6 months shut that season down, geneate the rest of the reousreces, do a final QC check and make that the next playable solar system. It worked OK for EQN but I think it would have been better if it was just pure build without needing to grind to build it should be built for speed to add some kind of life to your game.

 

This would bring in a whole bunch of new people or allow players to jump on their to blow off steam and to create what they actually want to build. Perhaps at the end players should be able to make blueprints.

 

I think the biggest thing NQ is also missing is some kind of SBay player to payer micro transactions. Nobody is going to buy a ship with credits. Im not saying its not going on its just that whole system is fucked. It needs to be an all in one full ship magic blueprint only spawnable on your base. Anyhow there is a lot of talented people here making scripts, voxel assets, ships, industries, etc and there is a whole untapped potential to let players sell those things or even ore for real $$$. NQ has made a gold farmers dream game with massive grinds, sinks, etc and people are no doubt going to want to pay $$$ to just cut through all that bs.

 

But there is an untapped potential in hosting a market to see what is actually selling or needs improvement on NQs end but also they have created the conditions of such enormus grind that they can actually sit back and collect pretty much free money for letting players buy/sell completed items, full industries, huge stockpiles or ore, Ships, scripts, skins, etc. We do it all for them and they sit back and collect the cash for doing practically nothing.

 

I know the micro transactions thing is iffy but with items being fully destructible in 1-3-5 crashes their uses are short lived and again creates a demand for people to cut through all the bullshit redtape with their wallet if they want to with items that exist in game and in some circumstances are already being sold for $$$ and NQ not taking their cut.

 

There is no need to reinvent the wheel here as much as NQ just needs to play their own game or study the systems that exist in all MMOs. If they dont want money for doing nothing or to sell things people would pay for otherwise or larger market shares of population if they would get their head out of the sand and at least try to make a fun game that is available to more people then shutting out everyone so they are forced to join mega orgs when the simple solution to all JC's galactic war wet dreams is litterally factions tht would make this game available to a much robust experience.

 

[XKentX]

39 minutes ago, Fra119 said:

If it wasn't there this game would have been dead 1 month into beta. Do you remember the good old analogy of the wolves and the sheeps? You need the goddamn fence to keep your sheeps from being all slaughtered and thus to avoid wolves from starving to death.

 

Territory warfare will remove most of the safe zones, that will be enough.

 

I agree, the safe triangle of thadis/maids/alioth is a reasonable compromise.

 

Current situation is that wolves had their teeth forcibly removed and thrown into the cages with the sheep.

 

Moving warp points out of safe zone OR removing the safezone up until atmosphere can be implemented now. No development is required. You just change the number from 2.5su to 0.2 su and that's it.

[blazemonger]

28 minutes ago, XKentX said:

I agree, the safe triangle of thadis/maids/alioth is a reasonable compromise.

I actually disagree, it is NQ surrendering to a good chuck if the (former) Landmark community mostly who have no intrest in playin the game, they just want to build things and be left alone. They pretty much prefer to see DU be Landmark 2.

 

Had NQ chosen to keep Alioth and it's moons as a permanent safezone then sure.. but adding Madis and Thades is just not needed.

 

28 minutes ago, XKentX said:

Current situation is that wolves had their teeth forcibly removed and thrown into the cages with the sheep.

Here is where I do not agree at all, you are well aware of what is coming and at which time the safezones around outer planets will go away. the constant crying and bickering about combat PVP is getting rather old especially when NQ has actually been rather clear (or a change) on where this will be going.

 

Now, I do expect the salt and tears to get even bigger once it becomes obvious how the Territory warfare and subsequent atmo PVP will be implemented. Not only will that come with ECM and other counters for those not wanting to actively engage in combat in space, in atmosphere options will be limited for solo/small group combat, even in the air as I fully expect that the TU protection of tiles will extend throughout the tile, basically creating a safe cylinder and by linking these together corridors can be created where non combatants will be able  to safely enter atmosphere and land.

 

If I'm wrong, I'm fine with a more "aggressive" implementation actually but this is what I think wil happen.

 

 

28 minutes ago, XKentX said:

Moving warp points out of safe zone OR removing the safezone up until atmosphere can be implemented now. No development is required. You just change the number from 2.5su to 0.2 su and that's it.

Not unless non combatants have at least a chance to get on to the planet safely by using counters other than having guns and/or escorts. NQ has committed to keeping safezones in place until Territory warfare arrives.

 

Frankly, I still do not understand why some combat PVP players keep pushing for access to non combatant players. You could spend your time finding others that want to fight but I guess that is requiring effort and will bring risk that is scary and something to avoid. Imagine engaging a target that may actually shoot back.. brrr..

[XKentX]

12 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

Here comes the guy that wants NQ to balance ships with guns versus ones that don't bring guns.

 

Did you try to "spend your time finding others that want to fight" ? How many hours it took you to get bored and give up ?

 

btw what makes you think that ecm tools are to avoid pvp rather than force it ? Like web that lowers your speed or bubble that stops your warp

[blazemonger]

 

No, I want (and NQ has said the will) opportunity to mitigate risk enough to be able to be cost effective using counters such as ECM. I have no interest in guns and believe that being smart and using the countermeasures that are coming will be sufficient to bring the current "if you get engaged you die" down to a "if you get engaged you have an acceptable risk of not getting away".

 

Getting shot at and potentially lose the ship is a risk that is calculated into my and other's business. It is not something we fear or run from but at this time, there is no counter we can deploy to mitigate the risk outside of using Warp. and it will stay that way until Territory warfare comes in  and with it countermeasures (as NQ has said will happen)..

 

Why are you so hell-bent on getting access to player not interested in shooting guns at all? Why are you not able, like many others are, to engage in combat PVP with others that share your interest to shoot things? What is holding you back in that regard?

[JohnnyTazer]

8 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

No, I want (and NQ has said the will) opportunity to mitigate risk enough to be able to be cost effective using counters such as ECM. I have no interest in guns and believe that being smart and using the countermeasures that are coming will be sufficient to bring the current "if you get engaged you die" down to a "if you get engaged you have an acceptable risk of not getting away".

 

Getting shot at and potentially lose the ship is a risk that is calculated into my and other's business. It is not something we fear or run from but at this time, there is no counter we can deploy to mitigate the risk outside of using Warp. and it will stay that way until Territory warfare comes in  and with it countermeasures (as NQ has said will happen)..

 

Why are you so hell-bent on getting access to player not interested in shooting guns at all? Why are you not able, like many others are, to engage in combat PVP with others that share your interest to shoot things? What is holding you back in that regard?

whats holding us back? Everything in the game.  We cant attack other pvpers bases. We cant blockaide a planet we "claim" as ours.  PvPers dont want to just shoot haulers.  My group regularly has to shoot our friends so we can get any pvp action to learn what works and what doesn't.  You opinion on pvp means jack cause you haven't done it.  Yes, sometimes haulers get shot, yes people can choose to only hunt haulers and run from other pvpers.  Thats their choice.  Doesn't mean most or all do.  

[blazemonger]

1 minute ago, JohnnyTazer said:

whats holding us back? Everything in the game.  We cant attack other pvpers bases. We cant blockaide a planet we "claim" as ours.

As we all know, they game is still mostly in it's infancy in this regard and we know that everything you are saying here is there for a reason AND wil be addressed once territory warfare comes in. You are well aware of this yet seem to ignore this fact to make an argument which really is not there.

 

1 minute ago, JohnnyTazer said:

  PvPers dont want to just shoot haulers.  

I never made such generic claim or statement, in fact I explicitly made sure I mentioned that there is a good number of combat PVP players who actually spend their time researching ways to fight and engage each other. In the same vein your statement is not true in a general sense as there is a number of players specifically asking for access to non combatant players because they want to shoot them. If you are not one of those then my comments towards them do not apply to you.

 

Lastly, saying that someone can't have or voice an opinion on something simply because they choose to not actively engage in a specific activity is both nonsense and very shortsighted IMO. Not actively engaging in combat PVP does not mean one does not understand what is needed nor does it mean one does not understand the mechanic.

[Physics]

I think Blaze is right about Territory warfare claimed tiles having some kind of ability to shield friendlies from hostiles. But that is good in my opinion. It creates raid & defend gameplay to break these shields down. 
 

Edit: Rather than the whole tile being a shield we may find an element such as a shield emitter unit that can only be placed on Static / Space cores that will provide pvp immunity, with set down times depending on when placed. 

[Warlander]

I love how its supposed to be some kind of epic battle but all this game currently has to offer is a mugging/carjacking sim and their only real ambition he is to break your legs to make the car jacking easier on the criminal and 10x worse for the victim. The only apparent solution I guess is to turn this mugging/carjacking sim into a petty theft and burglary sim?

 

Its not legit pvp bro between the Empire and Rebels its like MS13 vs some old people down the street mining their own business. Its not exactly a fair fight. They just never had a chance.

 

When the only solution to making it legit pvp is faction based homeworld combat between 1-4 solar systems with a central contention solar system and allowing players to choose their homeworld faction to fight for and then building an org to help the war effort and homeworld defense effort and working together as a larger group who cannot attack each other unless you leave the homeworld faction and create your own indepenent syndicate ore pirate faction if you think you can take on a much larger enemy. This is litterally the only way this game has a chance.

 

Otherwise its just pointless chaos with no other real endgame other then petty griefing and burglary with no equals as im sure large orgs to a certain extent wont turn their efforts against each other until everyone else is out of the way and out of the game.

 

Its not my fault they tout this building game as some kind of Eve Online. If it were set up properly I might have PvP'ed but since NQ does not understant well established principles in the MMO genre that you have a combat class primary role where everyone can fight and a secondary crafting role to accentuate what you do via crafting im stuck in a non combat role trying to bide my time and progress to some day fight but I dont have years to wait to do that. If we had a faction based system that had orgs working together I might build some ships to help the effort but not in this current system or the capacity i have to just build basic things or the inability to make honeycombs over having to choose useful practical parts has been a hamper on a lot of things when it takes like a litteral mountain of iron and mining 10hrs a day to make a wall. Mining the space of an L core should produce pretty much an L core's worth of material you would think.

 

 

[Physics]

7 minutes ago, Warlander said:

I love how its supposed to be some kind of epic battle but all this game currently has to offer is a mugging/carjacking sim and their only real ambition he is to break your legs to make the car jacking easier on the criminal and 10x worse for the victim. The only apparent solution I guess is to turn this mugging/carjacking sim into a petty theft and burglary sim?

 

Its not legit pvp bro between the Empire and Rebels its like MS13 vs some old people down the street mining their own business. Its not exactly a fair fight. They just never had a chance.

 

When the only solution to making it legit pvp is faction based homeworld combat between 1-4 solar systems with a central contention solar system and allowing players to choose their homeworld faction to fight for and then building an org to help the war effort and homeworld defense effort and working together as a larger group who cannot attack each other unless you leave the homeworld faction and create your own indepenent syndicate ore pirate faction if you think you can take on a much larger enemy. This is litterally the only way this game has a chance.

 

Otherwise its just pointless chaos with no other real endgame other then petty griefing and burglary with no equals as im sure large orgs to a certain extent wont turn their efforts against each other until everyone else is out of the way and out of the game.

 

Its not my fault they tout this building game as some kind of Eve Online. If it were set up properly I might have PvP'ed but since NQ does not understant well established principles in the MMO genre that you have a combat class primary role where everyone can fight and a secondary crafting role to accentuate what you do via crafting im stuck in a non combat role trying to bide my time and progress to some day fight but I dont have years to wait to do that. If we had a faction based system that had orgs working together I might build some ships to help the effort but not in this current system or the capacity i have to just build basic things or the inability to make honeycombs over having to choose useful practical parts has been a hamper on a lot of things when it takes like a litteral mountain of iron and mining 10hrs a day to make a wall. Mining the space of an L core should produce pretty much an L core's worth of material you would think.

 

 

If NQ made a friend / foe system that actually worked well and was relatively easy to use, i think you would find these factions emerge. We definitely do need this system, not just some half baked transponder things. Would it be that hard to make a system based on organisations and their players rather than single ships?

[Warlander]

51 minutes ago, Physics said:

If NQ made a friend / foe system that actually worked well and was relatively easy to use, i think you would find these factions emerge. We definitely do need this system, not just some half baked transponder things. Would it be that hard to make a system based on organisations and their players rather than single ships?

Its just not something where you basically created a guild system and expect them to organically create a faction by forcing everyone to join them and expect any level of success and longevity without a base faction system you are born into and can opt out of if you think you can build your own. The way it is now NQ/JC hates everyone who does not want to be assimilated into a mega org. I dont want to join their guild I want to help the civilization. Its like saying You cant run a business unless you join walmart. There is a whole market out there but you cant do anything unless you work for a big box store vs trying to build your own business/or/military.

 

I should choose tho help on my terms rather than being forced into a raiding guild lord of the flies situation rather than having all orgs work together with the faction as the central point and not necessarily any one org but the total effort.

 

Large scale combat will never happen without starting opposing solar systems with the full solar system dedicated to 1 faction unless some kind of spin off syndicate forms to oppose the main faction. But even still you are born into the homeworld faction until you opt out. It has to be opposing solar systems because there is not enough room for faction combat or large battles to occur unless you can rack up the territory and reason to fight as you colonize your solar system until point of contact in which they are no doubt the enemy and you can attack them anywhere and at any time if they come into your solar system and they can do the same to you. The only difference being you have territry and territory units and perms/rights for your side only and no rights for land on the opposing side beyond the floating space they own defined only to their side. Each side can completely fight it out with no limits at tht point.

 

And the biggest reason this pvp wont work in this game is there is no cohesive system in place to keep it all together since players will never turly form an organic faction out of orgs before it topples  under its own weight without set factions or the ability to opt out and start your own.

 

We basically have a system where you are waiting in line to do something fun and the only thing we can do is punch the person in front of us in the back of the head because the person behind us keeps punching us in the back of the head. Nobody gets really any further in progress before the next wave hits and someone or something is punching you in the back of the head again. Its pointless and without any kind of coheesive army faction system its just grind waiting in line to be punched in the back of the head. You arent building societies if its just anarchy, petty theft, and burglary vs making the conditions to have actual real wars and not this disorganized pvp.

 

All this insane production and hyper saturation in the markets was supposed to be for a wartime economy. They cant figure out how to fix the markets but they cant also figure out how to get people to fight either. Nobody wants to spend 2 months mining to build a ship to lose it in 5 mins at potentially hundreds of millions in losses. Its just to stupid and overbloated of a process to fight a war without a focused wartime effort on miners, builders, crafters, pilots, and figher pilots to wage a war collectively instead of random chaos tearing any chance of that appart before the conditions can organically form.

 

I would much prefer a duel solar system approach then a single solar system of griefers. Space is an infinte place after all why are we stuck in a micro solar system fighting over scraps and tearing ourselves apart when all that will to pvp and have pvp happens better in a faction format instead of guild vs guild.

 

Its kind of like most raiding tribes before christianity hit in eurpose. People raided each other constantly and never got anywhere until they converted to christiantiy as a faction that allowed the guilds to work past petty conflict. Sure there were other religious factions they fought against like islam in faction warfare but they still fought amongst themselves as orgs outside of that faction as well for teritory. Opting out of a faction but still being born into a larger faction to essentially do the same as described above.

[OrionSteed]

I know this is a PvP game.

 

But I have no interest in PvP.  I can't stand it.  I'm a builder / industrialist.  I want to be more than just a target, I want you to earn your kill through skill.  I hope NQ gives us defenses to level the playing field so I'm not just a point / click / shoot.  I hope there's some depth in the end.  I see what's on the horizon.

 

With the economy the way it is now, you have to mine a significant amount of time to rebuy ship parts for a ship worthy of hauling ore planet to planet.  Keep that in mind going forward.  For you who hate to build, the utopia you want killing others for fun may have unintended consequences. 

[Fra119]

1 hour ago, Warlander said:

 

Its kind of like most raiding tribes before christianity hit in eurpose. People raided each other constantly and never got anywhere until they converted to christiantiy as a faction that allowed the guilds to work past petty conflict. Sure there were other religious factions they fought against like islam in faction warfare but they still fought amongst themselves as orgs outside of that faction as well for teritory. Opting out of a faction but still being born into a larger faction to essentially do the same as described above.

I believe you spelled "Romans" wrong there :v

 

Btw I agree with you with the need of factions, but I believe that they simply can't just add systems as they like, tech-wise it might be a cost they can't sustain.

[Warlander]

1 hour ago, Fra119 said:

I believe you spelled "Romans" wrong there :v

 

Btw I agree with you with the need of factions, but I believe that they simply can't just add systems as they like, tech-wise it might be a cost they can't sustain.

 

 

I always try to make suggestions that take minimal effort with what already exists.

 

Factions=Orgs essentially. Or the Primary Org with player made orgs being an unlimited sub guild of the parent master org. If they make a number of basic factions you can join like Syndicate, Empire, Resistance, Federation, etc it is pretty much all they need to do along with /off flag for PvP while in that faction and having an inter faction mission system since they cant kill you or gank you it works. Done.

 

But overall if there is no larger space to fight over where our faction has their own solar system to build up, mine, defend, produce, and fight in some kind of middle ground no mans land and having it as a solar system nexus hub of portals to other potential solar systems with a faction and homeworld to join in the expanding space war is what is needed to make pvp viable.

 

If I was going for a full fledge faction system I would say to have it where if you kill another factions member then you take faction away from your own people vs that faction and their allies and if you do missions with the other factions it gains faction for your faction overall with what each member is doing so if you drop low enough you could make yourself an enemy to other factions and allies to half the others based on what you actually do in game to start wars. Or a whole AI driven system that streamlines everything.

 

Im just suggesting the most simple yeti uniform aspect of PvP inherant to sucessful pvp games that does not force you to join a player run guild as much as it needs guilds working together for something greater as a group of guilds rather than one dictating the terms of the server and allowing players the free will to choose to help under their own terms and exist together on a side where they dont just kill all the potential members of the few viable guilds existing as factions.

 

Its kinda like playing an RTS like Age of Empires or Empire Earth or whatever your fav is. Take your pick. So you start the game and everything is going fine but none of your units are allied and all your military units are killing off your workers. You cant progress because you cant get past your military units killing your own poeple and burining your industry down constantly. Its no different in this situation. You cant build an empire without allied units or you just spin your wheels fighting over nothing when you could be attacking other civilizations like you should be doing.

[Aaron Cain]

1 hour ago, OrionSteed said:

 

With the economy the way it is now, you have to mine a significant amount of time to rebuy ship parts for a ship worthy of hauling ore planet to planet.  Keep that in mind going forward.  For you who hate to build, the utopia you want killing others for fun may have unintended consequences. 

Indeed, within no time there will be no-one flying at all. The aftermath of the last patch shows exactely what happens if we get another one like it, you can not only kiss PVP goodby but also any hope for a DU version with a sustainable player base. And Yes thats assumption, and assumption is the mother of all fuckups but I guess someone assumed the latest patch would be great and bring everybody back ingame and Make them all happy. First days i heard alot of positive people, then they needed to fix their own industry, now they abandoned a majority of their factories.   I hope I am very wrong and i hope that the dutch saying :

Beter ten halve gekeerd dan ten hele gedwaald (better to turn halfway then to get comletely lost)

Is also known to the people who are looking if the patch does what was intended

[michaelk]

On 1/10/2021 at 5:41 AM, Aaron Cain said:

Problem with DU is that they had a clear vision, nice kickstarter goals and alot of people here reacted to that and the possible awesomeness of the implications.

Personally, I think the problem is the exact opposite...they had a really vague vision that appealed to a lot of people, but never articulated it into a detailed, cohesive design. 

 

It's like the show "Lost"...when everything is a mystery, it appeals to a lot of people because the imagination works to fill in the many gaps. Once you realize the writers have no freakin' clue what they are doing, the appeal starts to vanish.

 

After six years, DU is still in the "Lost" period where the appeal of the game is almost completely driven by the mystery and promise of what comes next. If you think about it too long, you realize they're even more lost than we are. 

 

People love to talk about how DU "isn't the right game for you" because of wanting too little or too much PvP...but it's always been up to NQ to communicate what type of game this will be. They still don't know. They're still knee-deep in smoke monster, unable to fathom a bigger picture. 

 

This isn't an issue with some players wanting peace and some other players wanting "free" PvP. It really isn't. 

 

The issue is that NQ still isn't sure what game it's making. Dig up all the past promises and explanations you want, the fact that "but PvP needs to work THIS way" keeps coming up over and over and over and over again is proof that they haven't written the ending...never mind figuring out how to actually get there. 

 

It really doesn't matter what you think the smoke monster ought to be...cuz trust me, the writers have a really different and probably stupid perspective. 

[Aaron Cain]

The biggest issue with your post is that you are very probably right in all aspects

[Demlock]

On 1/7/2021 at 2:01 PM, Physics said:

With the current system players are able to mine and warp haul the rarest resources back to the safe zone triangle with absolutely no risk, just pure reward. This removes any need to tactically think of ways to haul these resources back, hire military escort services or scout their travel path. 

This of course will end with the release of Atmos pvp / territory warfare but this may well be a long time away. So I have a proposal that should be light on development resources that would bring the risk aspect back in to the game while also giving ways to avoid pirate warp exit point camping.

 

Warp cost change.
 

Currently the cost of warp is calculated from a formula that takes total warp distance multiplied by ship weight. You set the warp at A and are frozen until you reach B of which the warp cells used are removed from inventory on arrival and ship unlocks. 

 

A better way of doing this is for the Warp cost to start at 1 cell, the cost then increases while you are in warp due to warp distance you have covered. If you reach the warp cell limit of your inventory you will drop out of warp wherever you are on the line. Additionally you can now choose to exit warp at any time of the journey.

This allows players to change direction and move off the common travel routes without the need to slowboat. Doing this will also change your target planet / moon warp exit point.

 

Now finally until Atmos pvp / Territory warfare is introduced I recommend moving the warp exit points and warp interference radius of planets not in the safe zone triangle out in to the pvp area of space by around 5 - 10 SU. This will finally add some risk for the higher resource rewards from these planets.

 

Here you go Physics

I what you're saying is what I and others are saying here too.

 

It's literally all over the DU forums. The carebears got what they wanted and now the game just isn't worth playing.

 

What's going to bring in the people and the money is better PvP.

NQ needs to face facts that people play these kinds of games for combat. If there's nothing like that in good quality and fun. People will say "F*** this game, NQ ruined a marvelous idea"

 

 

[Demlock]

14 hours ago, Physics said:

If NQ made a friend / foe system that actually worked well and was relatively easy to use, i think you would find these factions emerge. We definitely do need this system, not just some half baked transponder things. Would it be that hard to make a system based on organisations and their players rather than single ships?

If NQ would make a system that actually drove content then maybe the game would not be in such hot water.

instead we got .23 and a response saying "WE HEAR YOU"

when it was obvious they weren't paying attention the first time people told them DO NOT PUSH THAT DUMBASS PATCH.

 

Sometimes over-zealousness in reaching deadlines will blind you to the negative effects you'll have on the product you're about to modify.