Partial Rollouts of Large Scale Changes

[UKFatGuy77]

I actually made this suggestion as an example in another topic but figured it was probably worthy of its own Topic.

 

Anyway, the Idea is that instead of rolling out a server wide change such as mining units and/or territory warfare. If possible just choose a low population planet or perhaps one of each of the planets moons and enable territory warfare there. If you combine this with increased resource availability on those planets/moons or some other benefit to having such territory you can then you get to see how a mass implementation is likely to turn out.

 

Yes a public test server should *theoretically* have the same effect but I don't actually believe it will provide the feedback you need. After all fully exploring any large scale changes takes a lot of time and if done on a test server has no rewards. Lots of players will just ignore the test server and be surprised when the rollout to the main server actually comes along, which leads to all the same problems as not consulting the players in the first place.

 

Meanwhile, having the map cut up into sections such as the Safe zone, A PvP zone and full blown PvP Zone with varying/escalating resource availability and rewards provides all of the players somewhere to play the type of game they actually want to play.   

[NQ-Naunet]

?

[blazemonger]

You can't stagger implementation of big changes in a single shard persistent game like DU, that would by default create severe imbalance in the game and pose risk and benefit to certain groups of players.

 

I understand the reason why OP is suggesting this but the situation has been created by NQ through not following a normal development process and basically mislabeling the game's development stage as beta while it really is hardly in Alpha. What is happening right now is called prototyping which would normally happen during pre alpha stages of development where major changes in game mechanics and balance can happen to test their viability and impact (and often breaking the game). The reason why you make these changes during that stage is you want to get to a point where you know which mechanics work as well as how they relate to and impact each other.

 

From there you enter Alpha stage where you will implement the game loops and mechanics you end up with for the eventual game, still with the room to make sweeping changes. During both pre-alpha in general and alpha when needed you should have the option to fully wipe and get a new baseline with then existing feature set. Once all the relevant features and game loops for the release version of the game are in and working you enter beta stage where these are refined, balanced and you start bug fixing and polish. This is also the time where the eventual UI/UX is finalized. This then leads into release of a complete, stable and polished product.

 

NQ however seems to think they can keep adding major new features and game loops to complete the base game up to and beyond release somehow. They are not in fact addressing core issues in the game backend and game server itself, they are mostly patching "fixes" to work around or hide symptoms. They do not really fix anything though, what is happening is that NQ is in a continuous loop of reducing the game's feature set and options to match the limited capacity their backend has in the hope to keep it alive (my opinion obviously but I do not expect to be far off here)..

 

NQ has always and continues to follow this pattern:

• Release patch
• Scramble to fix issues that are breaking the game
• Go quiet (we are here currently)
• Stay quiet while call for (better) communication on progress grow stronger
• about 8 weeks later start saying you know, will do better on communication and have news soon (end of February)
• about 10 weeks later start sending out devblogs and  announcing a patch (start-half March)

rinse..repeat..

 

This pattern has been followed for most of the development cycle of DU an there are no indicators for me to expect this to change but I'll be happy to be proven wrong by NQ here. 

 

NQ always spoke of the potential of millions of players in the persistent universe, I'd be surprised if the current active character count is in the high 4 digit numbers and with those number we see the way the cluster and backend is struggling already. And then there is the support system behind it which is at a constant level of meltdown with continued extreme handling times for the most basic of tickets.

[UKFatGuy77]

2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

You can't stagger implementation of big changes in a single shard persistent game like DU, that would by default create severe imbalance in the game and pose risk and benefit to certain groups of players

Err....Why? EVE Online manages pretty well with High Sec, Low Sec & Null Sec. While I'll admit it EVE is hardly a game worthy of being put on a pedestal. The concept behind those areas is pretty sound even if the implementation is awful.  Furthermore, there's already a 'Safe Zone' which seamlessly transitions into a PvP area and from what I can tell there's another transition once you enter a stellar bodies gravity well. So I'm assuming those boundaries already exist and that imposing differing 'rules' in different areas is not the nightmare it sounds like. 

 

As for an imbalance. Its clear that large Orgs are always going to out perform single players and small Orgs in every aspect of the game. Furthermore, The implementation of any type of territory warfare will guarantee that *ALL* rare/valuable resources will end up in the hands of Large Orgs as they will have the numbers and industrial capacity to simply take whatever they want from 'little guy' competitors. That fact alone will cause a snowball effect of ever increasing capability among large Orgs and ever decreasing capability of anything smaller in scale. That is exactly what happens in EVE and its inevitable that it will happen in DU.

 

So if that's the case (which it is/will be) rather than simply loosing all the solo or small group players, give them a real choice and somewhere to go that suits their playstyle.  

[blazemonger]

The way EVE is organized is very different and really can't be compared as here is no NPC involvement in DU like there is in EVE.

 

Once Territory warfare arrives, only the safezone around Alioth/Madis/Thades will remain with no combat PVP interaction at all while anywhere else will be open for any form of PVP, including combat.

 

You can't compare highsec in EVE to the safezone in DU, the latter is more like a game within a game which takes places docked at an NPC station, you can't be attacked or touched by anyone while you go about your business unless you make mistakes in RDMS setting really. And soon NQ wil introduce another game within a game when they bring  in creative mode in a VR sandbox where you get unlimited materials and can build what you want to then take a blueprint into the open world.. That will hurt the economy and segment the general population even more.

 

I do not at all agree that there is no or wil not be room for solo or small org gameplay in DU and this is certainly not the case in EVE. In either case, if you as a solo player or small group trample on to the territory or activities (outside of the safe zone ) of bigger orgs, you are bound to get into trouble for sure but the planets and scale of the game as a whole is such that there will always be room. You just have to be creative and find your niche in the game and maximize it's opportunities for you (again, just like you would in EVE).

 

The biggest problem DU faces is that NQ has allowed bigger orgs to already amass a level of technology and money that they  are much further ahead than they should be while at the same time directly pointing the finger at solo and small org players for being "isolationists" and not partaking in the economy of the game, while it is actually the big orgs that have already been allowed to get into that position. And this gap wil only get bigger as NQ brings in more mechanics that will be roadblocks for one and bumps in the road for others due to their wealth. The "have" and "have not" culture in DU is fed by the misalignment of how NQ is developing the game with how it progresses and the ability of big orgs to retain wealth they obtained form early mistakes, loopholes and exploits not corrected by NQ.

[UKFatGuy77]

16 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

I think either you're not getting what i'm trying to say or i'm saying it badly...because from what i can tell you've just made my point for me.

Regardless i'll start at the beginning and try again.

 

1) My references to EVE High Sec, Low Sec, and Null sec have *nothing* at all to do with the presence or absence of NPCs. My point was that in those areas there are different levels of PvP engagement.

High Sec is supposedly secure (even though it isn't), Low Sec is basically where traditional PvP takes place and Null Sec allows players to do whatever they want including fight over...you guessed it...territory.

 

2) As for EVE solo and/or small org gameplay.....err how many small orgs in eve own *ANY* territory. I'll help you with that....The answer is *None*. Not a single claimable system exists outside of the control of the main half dozen or so factions. Yes there are a few which appear to be independent but they aren't. In all those situations they exist because the large orgs have *given* them that territory.

The exact same thing will happen anywhere in DU where territory warfare is implemented. So will there be somewhere for Solo and Small Org players to go....err...yes Alioth and perhaps Madis and Thades (although i'd heard that madis and thades were likely to loose their safe zone status further down the line).

So other than that small orgs will have to 'Rent' the use of territory from the large orgs who own all the territory on the 'Good' Planets in order to get any resources of note. That leads to the same snowballing effect. I also feel compelled to Add...Renting is not solo play, neither is it truly small org play. Its essentially boils down to players getting an ingame job where everything they do its regulated by their corporate overlords with whatever rules they dream up.

 

3) You said 'there will always be room'. I have to ask have you actually looked at the planets recently...Madis is what 15% settled and some of the outer planets are getting that way? If you add to that the fact that Territory is currently worthless as anyone can mine anywhere which isn't claimed then it doesn't take the foresight of the gods to realise that the moment Territory Tiles become valuable and having adjacent tiles provides bonuses or whatever was proposed, most of the the remaining tiles are going to vanish surprisingly quickly. Shortly after that territory belonging to small orgs and singletons will be conquered driving all the none PvP Oriented or antisocial players back to the safe zone.....where they can forever languish on whatever territory they were able to grap prior to the big orgs grabbing everything in sight. 

 

4) NQ has no way to stop players interacting outside of their game. Thus there will always be large orgs and large groups of players (usually the PvP crowd) wanting to band together to be the best or become top dog or whatever silliness is currently the trend. Furthermore, even if NQ took away all of the Large orgs factories, schematics.....hell everything they own. It wouldn't make a difference (other than to annoy then and inconvenience them for a few weeks). They would have the manpower to bounce back with frightening swiftness, after all that's why countries and communities exist in RL.

 

Finally, My Idea was.....

 

I genuinely do not believe that a test server is going to give NQ the information they need, nor the large scale testing environment they want. I'm not saying don't do it nor that test environments are an inherently bad idea. I just think NQ should not put all their eggs in one basket nor be too disappointed if it doesn't lead to the feedback they need.

 

Thus, my suggestion was to roll out certain game aspects in certain 'Pre-Notified' locations. Then lure the appropriate players to those locations via some means. That way NQ get the players where they need them and those players can always retreat back to somewhere less 'Broken' if the systems don't work as planned etc. 

[blazemonger]

4 hours ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

The exact same thing will happen anywhere in DU where territory warfare is implemented. So will there be somewhere for Solo and Small Org players to go....err...yes Alioth and perhaps Madis and Thades (although i'd heard that madis and thades were likely to loose their safe zone status further down the line).

Anyone can claim territory in DU, it takes a single TU to claim a tile. Will a single tile be at greater risk of being disputed and attacked? Absolutely..

Will there be safety in number, in solo players organizing and settling in communities/groups? Absolutely. 

Will it be tough for a solo player to own a tile and defend it if needed? Yes and it both should be and really is not the intent of the game for a solo player to go there, expecting that option to be open is frankly saying you do not get the context and core design of the game

 

Territory warfare will be tough, expensive and not something a loose group of bandits or even small orgs can really get involved with. A small org or group of solo players bonding together and co-operating by settling in/as a group will be quite capable of owning a cluster of tiles and work out of there as a co-op. It will be tough to attack and overtake these clusters.

 

And NQ has been very clear that the Alioth/Madis/Thades safezone is what will remain.

 

 

4 hours ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

3) You said 'there will always be room'. I have to ask have you actually looked at the planets recently...Madis is what 15% settled and some of the outer planets are getting that way?

You do realize that there is a whole new solar system coming this year right?

 

Madis is a relative small planet as is Thades.  That the planets in the safezone will have higher occupation numbers makes sense and in contract, the outer planets are mostly low single digit claimed and yes, there is plenty of room there and while yes, those will be open to PVP, as mentioned, it will not be a simple case of walking into a claimed tile and taking it from someone as for one, NQ has been quite clear on that Defense will always be favored over offense.

 

In general, I feel that even suggesting that owning a claim is a right or a given is not correct, it is a commitment and will take effort and organization, being it in a structured org or as a group of solo players, is entirely to be expected to not be easy, just like it will not be easy to dispute/attack a claimed tile.

 

 

4 hours ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

I genuinely do not believe that a test server is going to give NQ the information they need, nor the large scale testing environment they want. I'm not saying don't do it nor that test environments are an inherently bad idea. I just think NQ should not put all their eggs in one basket nor be too disappointed if it doesn't lead to the feedback they need.

My experience with a test server in the context of EVE is actually really good, players have frequently been able to find and a expose big issues with changes there before they come to the main live servers. SiSi (the EVE test server environment) is a much used and effective tool for CCP and such a server can also be for NQ provided they implement it well which is the actual question here. Just dropping a test server is not enough and will not be effective, NQ will need to actively use it, when changes com in, invite players to come and test them, set up mass tests when needed and create incentives to do so.

 

[fiddlybits]

20 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

Territory warfare will be tough, expensive and not something a loose group of bandits or even small orgs can really get involved with. A small org or group of solo players bonding together and co-operating by settling in/as a group will be quite capable of owning a cluster of tiles and work out of there as a co-op. It will be tough to attack and overtake these clusters.

Where did you get the design details for territory warfare? Is there a devblog where I can read more about the difficulty and costs you're referring to?

[blazemonger]

@fiddlybits

 

It's been discussed during several Q&A sessions on twitch and in interviews with streamers by JC. So far his story on this has been fairly (and surprisingly) consistent and to me would make sense;

• TU protects hex from attack
• You can create a "virtual safe zone" by surrounding your "main" hex with claimed hexes as attackers will need to forge a path through these surrounding hexes to get to your main one and can't just jump over them
• Defense will always be favored over offense
• Offense will be costly both in resources and time requirement
• The system will be built to drive "peaceful" solutions to disputes over combative ones

 

If you consider the above point as they are raised by JC/NQ it is IMO not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that territory warfare and with it planet side PVP will mostly be an activity not suited for solo/small group aggression but requires a managed and coordinated approach. A bigger factor where solo aggression may com into play will be once AvA combat comes in, but that wil not happen for another  18 months or so I'd expect (it will be post release and so expecting at least half 2022 is not unreasonable IMO).

 

Territory warfare will also be interesting as many are already and will be either encasing their TU or putting it underground which wil make it impossible to access unless your have operatives on the inside able to grant access to dig on a territory or access to a construct that contains the TU. No doubt the PVP crowd will be crying a lot about how unfair it is they will need to actually put in planning and effort to shoot at pixels  ..

[UKFatGuy77]

On 1/7/2021 at 9:24 AM, blazemonger said:

Territory warfare will be tough, expensive and not something a loose group of bandits or even small orgs can really get involved with. A small org or group of solo players bonding together and co-operating by settling in/as a group will be quite capable of owning a cluster of tiles and work out of there as a co-op. It will be tough to attack and overtake these clusters.

I can only assume you have not played EVE! I think you are entirely forgetting human nature, greed and underestimating just how pathetic and petty people actually are.

Firstly, again how many unclaimed systems are there in EVE? So what makes you think territory warfare will turn out an y differently.

Oh yeh....its going to be weighted in the defenders favour....what so much that a solo person can fend off say a dozen assailants? what about 10 times that number?

Even if that is the case large or even smallish bands of pirates will easily be able to interdict any territory they want in order to render it useless (remember cloaky campers in EVE?). 

 

Then to cut a very long story short and get to a point a hell of a lot quicker...I think you're ignoring just how many so called PvP players actually *WANT* a real fight. Because most of them just want to gang up and bully someone or something with absolutely zero risk to themselves......essentially piracy. Pirates don't want to fight warships they want to steal someone else's stuff and blow up whatever crappy PvE hauler passes by.....then they decry themselves the kings of PvP when quite literally anyone with even a single pop gun could have done the same thing.

 

So who do you think those throngs of losers are going to attack? Huge mega-corps with morons of their own? Nope, its the little guy....I think you're mixing up 'tough for a solo player to own a tile and defend it if needed?' with Impossible or at the very least so difficult its not even worth trying.....which actually amounts to the same thing.

 

As for there always being room.....So when we get to 'a whole new solar system'....is that going to be safe? I doubt it, will the warp in point be camped and interdicted by the first mega corp to get there.....absolutely......soooo that places us back to were back to where do all the PvE players go?

Oh yeh right i forgot all that room on alioth/madis and thades....which *WILL* taken by whoever gets there first because claiming territory is cheap like you said and even large orgs want somewhere to got hats safe every once in a while...especially with all those free juicy resources flowing from mining units ...so..that's the big orgs..new players go???

 

So all that aside...my main point is still that large sweeping changes are going to really mess with the game....and alienating large percentages of the player base is not a smart course of action for any company. Territory warfare if its just rolled out without a *LOT* of thought will cost NQ players, mining units if rolled out are going to render a third of the game pointless.....lets face it the game only has mining, building and a somewhat functional PVP system, no missions, no NPC's no real interaction, hell fighters are useless because cockpits are crap. Even rolling out a new solar system is going to annoy players who then can't go there without becoming someone slave...We don't need another EVE..we need something BETTER. 

[blazemonger]

1 hour ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

I can only assume you have not played EVE!

Played for nearly 5 years, still do on occasion.. Have you?

 

I play EVE solo, go out an explore, run sites and bring home the bacon. I sometimes get caught, it happens. overall I easily make enough to pay for my sub. I quit earlier this year and gave away about four years of subs time to several people as I liquidated assets and bio-massed characters. I now have 1 and he has gathered enough ISK to sub for the next year over the past month or so.

 

I've been part of a corp which is pretty much a loosely knit group of explorers who will not engage in aggression unless aggressed and will try and find a way out of such a situation if at all possible. It served us well and we earned the respect and right of passage in many null-sec system. You play the game your way and play it consistently, the null sec orgs see you as a non threat and you get a pass.. it's how that works in many cases.

 

And I fully expect it wil be the same in DU in many cases too.

 

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I think you are entirely forgetting human nature, greed and underestimating just how pathetic and petty people actually are.

Firstly, again how many unclaimed systems are there in EVE? So what makes you think territory warfare will turn out an y differently.

EVE:

3294 nullsec systems

2604 wormhole systems, some of which can't be inhabited

EVE has roughly 320,000 unique active  players of which on average 25K are online at any given time.

 

DU:

Moons have about 14,500 tiles, Alioth has 259,000

I'd be very surprised if DU has more than 75,000 registered accounts and I do not expect online player count at any given time exceeds 3500 and I think that is a very optimistic number

Sanctuary currently has almost 35,000 claimed tiles which is less than 32% of it's available tiles.

 

It's clear one of us has no idea about what they are saying and I know it is not me.

 

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Oh yeh....its going to be weighted in the defenders favour....what so much that a solo person can fend off say a dozen assailants? what about 10 times that number?

Even if that is the case large or even smallish bands of pirates will easily be able to interdict any territory they want in order to render it useless (remember cloaky campers in EVE?). 

How would you see "interdicting" a territory? unless you capture the TU you can't do anything. If I, as a solo player, place my TU underground and close the hole I used to place it, unless you somehow gain digging rights to my tile you have zero chance of getting to it. You will have to claim the TU and/or destroy it to be able to attack me on my tile.

 

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I think you're ignoring just how many so called PvP players actually *WANT* a real fight. Because most of them just want to gang up and bully someone or something with absolutely zero risk to themselves.

I think you are giving the loud voices here and on Discord a bit too much validity. There are considerable groups of players in DU who are actively and with great passion working to hone their skills, find every possible way to take advantage of the PVP mechanics in the game and prepare for the coming of territory warfare. I also think some of these groups are itching to get their hand on the very "pirates" you describe.

 

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So who do you think those throngs of losers are going to attack? Huge mega-corps with morons of their own? Nope, its the little guy....

I think your real motivation here is starting to show. I also think that your expectations for the game and how it will evolve are quite misaligned and even that you may be in the wrong game to be honest.

 

DU has PVP, much of it will be real, it will be massive and it will be well organized and managed. As a solo player you will have little or no dealings with these groups and they will ignore you as you are of zero interest to you. If however you get in their way, treat them with disrespect and ignorance, they will trample you and frankly, that would be on yourself.

 

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As for there always being room.....So when we get to 'a whole new solar system'....is that going to be safe?

Personally I expect there will be a Sanctuary moon there and possibly a single safe planet. The rest will be open PVP, yes. And that is how it should be.

 

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 I doubt it, will the warp in point be camped and interdicted by the first mega corp to get there.....absolutely

Mega corps do not camp a gate, they own it and raise taxed from usage of it. camping the gate and killing what comes through would be bad for business

Try camping a gate in EVE on a corp trade pipe.. You will be invited to leave .. or else .. fairly quickly .. if you even get asked and not just blown to bits.

 

 

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......soooo that places us back to were back to where do all the PvE players go?

There is no PVE in DU

If you do not want combat PVP, you stay in the safe zone(s)

 

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Oh yeh right i forgot all that room on alioth/madis and thades....which *WILL* taken by whoever gets there first

Alioth is 10.5% claimed, Thades 9.6% and Madis 18.5% .. I'd say there is room.. plenty of it

 

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So all that aside...my main point is still that large sweeping changes are going to really mess with the game....and alienating large percentages of the player base is not a smart course of action for any company.

I can agree that the disruptive changes NQ has made and wil be making are going to result in players leaving. I can see why they went the way they did but they pretty much painted themselves in a corner because of it. Whether or not they will manage to get out of it we will know over the course of the year. I am not optimistic they will but see no reason to close the door on the game just yet..

 

The existing and coming combat PVP changes though I do not see as a threat or problem for the game. If NQ does this right it will bring them more players and revenue.

 

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 Territory warfare if its just rolled out without a *LOT* of thought will cost NQ players,

Anyone who fears the arrival of Territory Warfare choose to play the wrong game anyway as it was always known this will come. 

 

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Even rolling out a new solar system is going to annoy players who then can't go there without becoming someone slave...We don't need another EVE..we need something BETTER. 

The problem here is not the game or the future plans, it is your expectation of what you think may happen. Your attitude and expectation creates the environment you predict, not whatever NQ does. The new solar system will bring new things to see, do and explore. it's an opportunity to me, to you it's a risk.

[UKFatGuy77]

3 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Played for nearly 5 years, still do on occasion.. Have you?

Err.......Yeh and for a hell of a lot longer.....I've run a Solo Corp, then a Small Corp then we moved to Null Sec and ran with some of the big boys. All in all we did fairly well for ourselves.....we had to quit for RL reasons...bit sad really.

 

 

7 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

320,000 unique active  players

Unfortunately, I know that to be waaaaaay wrong. Given that *most* EVE players run multiple accounts......like *LOTS* of accounts their actual player base is a tiny fraction of that total number and out of their 25000 active players online at any one time me and a 3 friends made up at least 25 of those and we knew other people that pissed all over us when it came to multiboxing. You also fail to consider that EVE has no logout timer so loads of people just leave themselves logged in...need I go on? I can even tell you why everyone leaves themselves logged in if you like.

9 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Alioth is 10.5% claimed, Thades 9.6% and Madis 18.5% .. I'd say there is room.. plenty of it

Did you actually look at your own numbers. Like you said Alioth has what 259000 tiles.....so 25,900 players with 10 tiles each or  17,267 with 15 Tiles....

So care to run your wonderful umbers again or do you honestly think that once mining units become a thing (and i'm assuming they will need the owner to actually own the territory its deployed in) that each player is going to be happy with their 1 free tile? If so, I think you grossly underestimate peoples ambitions and/or their need for raw materials. I KNOW the passive income from 30 tiles won't be enough to satisfy *my* (not our, not our orgs) ore requirements and I'm a total pleb in DU when it comes to industrial capacity. So how many tiles are large corps going to need.

19 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

How would you see "interdicting" a territory?

Really? Do you not see it? I'll humour this and pretend that isn't the most short sighted question I've ever heard. 

So you get that a territory is as *PLANET THING* right?. In case you hadn't noticed there's this other thing above it called SPACE....which can have *GREAT BIG* stations in it.

Now i'm assuming that In order for territory warfare to be a thing the safe zone around planets will need to go away. Atmospheric radar does not work in Space and Space Radar does not work in atmosphere. Territory is useless if you can't transport things in and our of it.....Need I go on?.....and please don't suggest running shipments our through the atmosphere that's just as dumb.

 

32 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Mega corps do not camp a gate, they own it and raise taxed from usage of it. camping the gate and killing what comes through would be bad for business

So i'm assuming you've never attended a burn Jita event...or been blown up by *YOUR OWN ALLIES* because the campers were bored and knew that it didn't matter. Also its NOT bad for business because there are no consequences. Large corps camp stuff all the time i think you need to get out more....and like i said even when they bag one of your jump freighters it doesn't make a difference because they are the ones dictating the rules.  

 

37 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Your attitude and expectation creates the environment you predict, not whatever NQ does.

Am  I.....God? Well if i'd know that i'd just click my fingers and fix everything. 

If you'd bothered to actually pay attention to what i've been saying you might have noticed that these things *are inevitable* and nothing anyone does is going to make a difference.

However, EVE is a total screw up and DU doesn't have to be. I honestly believe there is a way to make all the proposed content work and make a game for everyone not just *you*.

Saying that anyone not infested in PvP is playing the wrong game is basically telling 66% of the players to leave. I seem to remember DU being about BUILDING a new society. I'm pretty sure i didn't sign up for CoD and neither did a lot of other players.

 

After all if i'm going to be candid DU is currently boring. You have 4 aspects of play...flying somewhere...which boils down to staring at wizzy lines for 4 hours . Mining which can be quite therapeutic. Building stuff which is kinda interesting the first 50 times and PvP which barely works. The allure of the game comes from what it *could* be. I doubt i'm along in wanting to help NQ make it better and not have them make stupid decisions.

 

So i'll say again

I do not want DU to NOT have territory warfare......I actually like the idea.

I do *not* want DU to abandon PvP.

But neither do I want DU to alienate all solo or small group players. That is a bad business decision.

That said if NQ does *not* want them then by all means let those players know so they can cancel their sub and stop wasting their money on a game they doesn't care about nor want them.

 

so i'll also ask again why is  starting with a partial roll out a bad idea?

 

 

 

[blazemonger]

6 minutes ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

Unfortunately, I know that to be waaaaaay wrong. Given that *most* EVE players run multiple accounts.

So you say you have the correct numbers and what CCP has is incorrect? Or are you saying that CCP is lying when they state they know to have around 320K unique active accounts

 

6 minutes ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

Did you actually look at your own numbers. Like you said Alioth has what 259000 tiles.....so 25,900 players with 10 tiles each or  17,267 with 15 Tiles....

I can't help it if you can't correctly read numbers. There is 259,000 tiles on Alioth of which 10.5% is claimed. There is no relation to how many players have claimed tiles in that number, just that there are  231.805 unclaimed tiles which seems to me is quite a few..

 

 

6 minutes ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

So i'm assuming you've never attended a burn Jita event...or been blown up by *YOUR OWN ALLIES* because the campers were bored and knew that it didn't matter.

Attended? no.. the point is to stay away from Jita during such event if you have actual business there. Let the kids have their fun and just wait for a few days. Anyone hauling out of Jita during those events is just BadnDumb. And I have not been blown up by my allies, no, I do not have allies. I do have the right of passage in quite a few NS system where if someone kills me they are told to reimburse. It's called being smart, playin the game and earning respect in game.

 

There is several pockets in NS I have been given rights to run explo sites without being interrupted or attacked by locals.

 

 

6 minutes ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

Also its NOT bad for business because there are no consequences. Large corps camp stuff all the time i think you need to get out more....and like i said even when they bag one of your jump freighters it doesn't make a difference because they are the ones dictating the rules. 

Not my experience at all, NQ is mostly empty, camps are mostly small groups of independent players who, once reported get a visit from a response fleet.. I get your experience may be different but where I roam, that is what normally happens.

 

 

6 minutes ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

If you'd bothered to actually pay attention to what i've been saying you might have noticed that these things *are inevitable* and nothing anyone does is going to make a difference.

They are inevitable to (happen to) you are you are expecting them and are positioning yourself to have them happen to you.. It's called self-fulfilling prophecies.. look it up..

 

No, let me help you here:

A self-fulfilling prophecy is the sociopsychological phenomenon of someone "predicting" or expecting something, and this "prediction" or expectation coming true simply because the person believes it will and the person's resulting behaviors align to fulfill the belief

 

6 minutes ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

However, EVE is a total screw up and DU doesn't have to be.

Again, for you maybe, but that is not because of EVE being that, it is because you set yourself up that way.

Ever heard flat earth believers argue?  That is how you come across in this case.

 

6 minutes ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

I honestly believe there is a way to make all the proposed content work and make a game for everyone not just *you*.

Saying that anyone not infested in PvP is playing the wrong game is basically telling 66% of the players to leave.

 I seem to remember DU being about BUILDING a new society. I'm pretty sure i didn't sign up for CoD and neither did a lot of other players.

The person trying to make the game "just" work for them is not me here.

I am not saying that if you are not invested in combat POVP you are playing the wrong game at all, I am certainly not interested in combat PVP and I absolutely do not believe I am playing the wrong game.

 

DU is certainly about building community and society and part of that is conflict and combat PVP as a means to that end. The game is not about combat PVP but combat PVP is absolutely an important part of the game and it has always been very clear that this is the case.

 

If you ignore that, come in and then pretty much start a crusade against it because you do not want to engage in it you choose the wrong game. PVP is part of DU, by joining the game you should understand and accept that fact and if you can't then do not join the game. Accepting and understanding combat PVP is part of the game does not mean you should or are required to engage in combat PVP.

 

Would DU survive without combat PVP? likely yes, but it would be a less complete and interesting game if that were the case.

 

 

6 minutes ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

So i'll say again

I do not want DU to NOT have territory warfare......I actually like the idea.

I do *not* want DU to abandon PvP.

But neither do I want DU to alienate all solo or small group players. That is a bad business decision.

And herein lies the difference of opinion, I don not see where or how NQ is trying to alienate or drive away solo or small group players. They are making some choices I feel are not good and overall I think that their plan, which is IMO driven by financial need at this point, is too shallow and short term based.

 

Solo or small group players should accept and realize that their options in the game are limited by its very nature. Expecting you (should) have the same options and choices as a big org is not realistic. Thinking that as a solo player or small group you will not be able to do your thing and will be run over by big orgs will only have one end result.. being overrun by big orgs. Not because the game works that way but because you will position yourself in away to allow that to happen. Again, self fulfilling prophecy

 

6 minutes ago, UKFatGuy77 said:

so i'll also ask again why is  starting with a partial roll out a bad idea?

Because there is no "partial" in the game, it is a single persistent universe. What you suggest could work in a test server environment and I can see NQ using that option sure. But not in the live environment.

[UKFatGuy77]

8 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Because there is no "partial" in the game, it is a single persistent universe.

Right this discussion has gone off track....So....

 

Is there or is there not a safe zone? Is there or is there not a Safe Zone around planets? Do you transition between them?

If so then there *Is* such a thing as partial. If you can add a safe zone around a planet and add in its atmosphere etc then you can also change other aspects of the game in localised areas.

 

The big question is how difficult it is to do it. If its too difficult then this entire thread becomes moot...if not then if offers a way for NQ to mass test aspects of the game without screwing up a live server too badly..

 

 

 

[blazemonger]

There is a safezone around Alioth/Madis/Thades, yes. This safezone will be permanent.

There are safezones around outer planets too which will be removed once territory warfare comes into play. This is a consistent and game world wide situation. 

 

It's not a question of whether NQ could do what you suggest, the question is whether it would be a good idea. You think it would be, I disagree. Neither of us will change their mind on this so there is little point in arguing this further. 

[UKFatGuy77]

7 hours ago, blazemonger said:

There is a safezone around Alioth/Madis/Thades, yes. This safezone will be permanent.

There are safezones around outer planets too which will be removed once territory warfare comes into play. This is a consistent and game world wide situation. 

 

It's not a question of whether NQ could do what you suggest, the question is whether it would be a good idea. You think it would be, I disagree. Neither of us will change their mind on this so there is little point in arguing this further. 

Agreed ?