Spaceboys ask big wipe

[Lethys]

why is noone talking about stargates? wasn't that supposed to be WAY after launch, even after AVA? Why is NQ talking now about stargates? I'm so confused xD

[Noddles]

3 minutes ago, Lethys said:

why is noone talking about stargates? wasn't that supposed to be WAY after launch, even after AVA? Why is NQ talking now about stargates? I'm so confused xD

I heard that too. I was like wow we're rushing this out? Thought a new system was 2 years away at least

[fiddlybits]

6 hours ago, Xennial said:

Here is a not seeing the forest through the trees example. Basically EVERY MMO out there forces you to specialize via some 'class' system. You missed the entire reason I used screws as an example. Engaging in industry at scale is about making industrial gameplay more rewarding to the player and the player base as a whole. It's not about "I want to make everything all in one building , by myself". If people were setting up industry with the mindset first that it's another way to make money in game and engage with the player economy then it doesn't matter what they are mass producing. The fact that people only think in terms of industry means I make 200 different finished products so we never have to buy anything, rather then I engage in industry to interface with the market is the root problem they tried to address in 0.23.

I think the screws/engines/element industry specialization you're focusing on is also the trees. The game has specialization based on player added value through organizations, building designs and ships. We need more of the game world to reward diversity and asymmetry in these designs, but this specialization was happening before 0.23. In a player driven world where we build the end products, why is it so important to limit the production of generic commodities? Instead of expanding the game to harness what the players were building, 0.23 slowed everyone down to focus on mechanics where the items produced are all the same.

[Lethys]

10 minutes ago, Noddles said:

I heard that too. I was like wow we're rushing this out? Thought a new system was 2 years away at least

well guess what. they rush content now. 

 

no probes to build

no actual search for another system

no actual sending that probe there first

no "build a stargate on this side now"

no "one time jump" to the probe once it arrives there

no "build a second stargate on the side of the probe if you want instant travel"

no defending and selling access to that stargate

no actual fun, engaging and interesting gameplay

 

just instant gratification and a premade stargate because "muh DU needs more content"

 

laughable yet hilarious how they change the vision on the go

[Xennial]

5 hours ago, Lethys said:

well guess what. they rush content now. 

 

no probes to build

no actual search for another system

no actual sending that probe there first

no "build a stargate on this side now"

no "one time jump" to the probe once it arrives there

no "build a second stargate on the side of the probe if you want instant travel"

no defending and selling access to that stargate

no actual fun, engaging and interesting gameplay

 

just instant gratification and a premade stargate because "muh DU needs more content"

 

laughable yet hilarious how they change the vision on the go

This is what happens when game dev insta cave when adding elements that provide challenge. They couldn't even get element destruction in for a full week before insta cave to whining.

 

If they allow themselves to get caught in the age old trap of shoveling out "content" to the solo/casual ADHD crowd you can just kiss the game vision goodbye. Next we will be shooting bunnies that have magical $$ or drop super spiffy engine +5. 

 

Keep on caving to those whom came to a unique game only to cry for mainstream 'features'. We will end up with generic sci-fi MMO with an indi short on funds end product.

 

Make the game hard. Take the training wheels off and let those that can't hack it go back to whatever SP game that will spoon feed them do X to get loot Y quests and other nonsense.

 

Frankly same goes for a wipe. If its needed to reset the progression curve after a few major feature let the "omg! I paid money so you can't wipe" crowd go away. Bring it back from such a wipe with hard mode on, no bots , pull the safe zone buffer outside of atmosphere from the outter planets, drop the link range , the whole 9 yards. 

 

People act like $70/year is some sort of blood contract to have the game cater to their every impulse.

[IvanGrozniy]

13 hours ago, Xennial said:

Here is a not seeing the forest through the trees example. Basically EVERY MMO out there forces you to specialize via some 'class' system. You missed the entire reason I used screws as an example. Engaging in industry at scale is about making industrial gameplay more rewarding to the player and the player base as a whole. It's not about "I want to make everything all in one building , by myself". If people were setting up industry with the mindset first that it's another way to make money in game and engage with the player economy then it doesn't matter what they are mass producing. The fact that people only think in terms of industry means I make 200 different finished products so we never have to buy anything, rather then I engage in industry to interface with the market is the root problem they tried to address in 0.23.

 

Annnnnd failed. Schematics are just delays, nothing more, and frankly, an absurd idea. Another result of a case where JC thinks we're playing his game wrong. I also get the feeling that both he and some members of this community seem to think they can change human nature. They won't. People will just move on. There's a fundamental problem here that JC seems to think he can fix by going against human nature itself. Good luck with that I guess.

 

Someone already said it here in a different way but... specialization was already happening pre .23 patch. People were getting into their groves... scripting, building, making ships, doing logistics, etc. Because these were the paths the game offered. Further stratifying this into specific industry with a forced mechanic is ridiculous because it's inorganic. Here you have a massive game with so much potential, and you're constantly hit with absurd limits. All this so that people interface with markets? Big orgs won't do that. Small players probably will. The attempt to force people into a certain game pattern backfired. Fundamentally we're dealing with humans, not robots... a basic understanding of human nature is in order.

 

More content should be the focus. More avenues. More gameplay patterns. What NQ did was take the existing pathways and split them into pieces... into tiny little pieces...

[RumRunnerI]

13 hours ago, Xennial said:

You don't need 'faucets'. Daily rewards inject the cash, the free market would then decided the value of said cash. If everyone only had the daily injection then the prices would be based off that standard if there was no bot interference.

This would only be partislly true if players could sell schematics however the 100k a day for logging in does not even come close to the millions and billions going out the window forever because of schematic quanta sinks. If we are buying from bots then this game absolutely needs money faucets. Right now the currency in game is dropping rapidly which is leading to deflation. Prices are coming down because of ths and the fact noone is buying but why would anyone buy when it will be cheaper tomorrow. Less currency means the market is valuing that currency more and more and the 100k is having no impact on it. Why would I buy anything when prices are falling because the amount of quanta in circulation is dangerously low. Money sinks without sufficient money faucets is a diseaster, just look at some RL countries going thought this. Now that deflation is here, I will be sitting on my quanta. 

[Xennial]

10 minutes ago, RumRunner25 said:

This would only be partislly true if players could sell schematics however the 100k a day for logging in does not even come close to the millions and billions going out the window forever because of schematic quanta sinks. If we are buying from bots then this game absolutely needs money faucets. Right now the currency in game is dropping rapidly which is leading to deflation. Prices are coming down because of ths and the fact noone is buying but why would anyone buy when it will be cheaper tomorrow. Less currency means the market is valuing that currency more and more and the 100k is having no impact on it. Why would I buy anything when prices are falling because the amount of quanta in circulation is dangerously low. Money sinks without sufficient money faucets is a diseaster, just look at some RL countries going thought this. Now that deflation is here, I will be sitting on my quanta. 

Quanta is not dangerously low because people happen to have something to spend it other then scrap and whatever flavor of the week ship design . Prices are falling due to oversupply and lack of demand.  They will stabilize over time. Warp cells are a prime example, prices bottomed and are rebounding to pre 0.23 levels just fine. Panic about deflation all you like but deflation is NEVER a problem in MMOs.

 

[RumRunnerI]

6 minutes ago, Xennial said:

Panic about deflation all you like but deflation is NEVER a problem in MMOs.

I'm hardly panicking and saying that deflation isnt a problem in MMOs (which is true in general) has absoutley no bearing on DU just because it's a MMO. Provide some insight of how there isnt deflation instead of applying something that is true for MMOs and suggesting it's an absolute truth chiseled in stone for DU somehow is crazy. There is less currency in circulation right now, it's just a fact. It wont be forever, it's not healthy but it is happening in this game right now. I'm open to discussing it, it's hardly panic signally. 

[Xennial]

5 minutes ago, RumRunner25 said:

I'm hardly panicking and saying that deflation isnt a problem in MMOs (which is true in general) has absoutley no bearing on DU just because it's a MMO. Provide some insight of how there isnt deflation instead of applying something that is true for MMOs and suggesting it's an absolute truth chiseled in stone for DU somehow is crazy. There is less currency in circulation right now, it's just a fact. It wont be forever, it's not healthy but it is happening in this game right now. I'm open to discussing it, it's hardly panic signally. 

Show me your database information about circulating quanta before declaring things as fact.

 

I have written earlier extensively as to why deflation is not a problem in DU and the core economic issues are the inclusion of bots at all.

[klobber]

Might be too simple,

but the economy is not working because nobody looses stuff that he needs to replace.

[Emptiness]

9 hours ago, Xennial said:

This is what happens when game dev insta cave when adding elements that provide challenge. They couldn't even get element destruction in for a full week before insta cave to whining.

 

If they allow themselves to get caught in the age old trap of shoveling out "content" to the solo/casual ADHD crowd you can just kiss the game vision goodbye. Next we will be shooting bunnies that have magical $$ or drop super spiffy engine +5. 

 

Keep on caving to those whom came to a unique game only to cry for mainstream 'features'. We will end up with generic sci-fi MMO with an indi short on funds end product.

 

Make the game hard. Take the training wheels off and let those that can't hack it go back to whatever SP game that will spoon feed them do X to get loot Y quests and other nonsense.

This. I come from Kerbal Space Program and Space Engineers, where a ship crash at speed means complete replacement is needed. Not this easy mode garbage where even a light-speed equivalent crash into a planet just means repair with magical scrap and fly away.

[GraXXoR]

OP. You are no bigger a player than any other. You are just a player. Might be good to start off with some humility. 
 

 

also star gates will be a LOT less work than AVA. Only in a non programmer’s mind will star gates and new planetary regions be harder then encoding entire new game aspects and systems.

 

which is why I personally find NQ’s constant flip-flopping rather concerning. 

[Elitez]

49 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

OP. You are no bigger a player than any other. You are just a player. Might be good to start off with some humility. 
 

 

also star gates will be a LOT less work than AVA. Only in a non programmer’s mind will star gates and new planetary regions be harder then encoding entire new game aspects and systems.

 

which is why I personally find NQ’s constant flip-flopping rather concerning. 

100% agree on this. We have 1 system, we have patterns, easy to create as many as you want, 2nd system is fun but its not needed atm.

[Fra119]

6 minutes ago, Elitez said:

100% agree on this. We have 1 system, we have patterns, easy to create as many as you want, 2nd system is fun but its not needed atm.

It depends, if the new system comes with a community event, like the opening of ahn'qiraj gates in WoW, which takes time and requires almost everyone to cooperate then it's good.

Lethis suggested a few things, never played eve but I guess it's how it works there, it's a good start, it could make us invested in something for weeks or months.

[Lethys]

2 hours ago, Fra119 said:

Lethis suggested a few things, never played eve but I guess it's how it works there, it's a good start, it could make us invested in something for weeks or months.

I didn't suggest anything. What I said was NQs plan at kickstarter. Emergent gameplay all the way. Now it smells like casual content

[Fra119]

26 minutes ago, Lethys said:

I didn't suggest anything. What I said was NQs plan at kickstarter. Emergent gameplay all the way. Now it smells like casual content

I tought it was from eve ?

If it's from NQ then there might be hope xD

[Lethys]

1 hour ago, Fra119 said:

I tought it was from eve ?

If it's from NQ then there might be hope xD

Not rly, cause jc adressing this casually at the end of a video pretty much says everyting. That was the Final nail in the coffin for interesting stargate gameplay as they promised 2014

[Xennial]

I find all this talk about stargates and new systems funny. We don't have the population to spread to the planets we have now and everyone gets their nickers in a twist at the idea of doubling that empty space in some new system. Just what the game needs, is even more empty planets for everyone to scan and mine and move on *eyeroll*

[Fra119]

21 minutes ago, Xennial said:

I find all this talk about stargates and new systems funny. We don't have the population to spread to the planets we have now and everyone gets their nickers in a twist at the idea of doubling that empty space in some new system. Just what the game needs, is even more empty planets for everyone to scan and mine and move on *eyeroll*

I might agree with you, but I'm not the one talking for months about planets/moons being mined out. I mean, planets are cool, but this game revolves around ores, if there's the possibility that we are running low on high tier stuff then a new system will be needed soon.

 

I just landed on thades with 3 scanners etc, I opened the map and there are claimed tiles scattered everywhere, how many good stuff is left here? I don't know.

 

[Warlander]

On 12/22/2020 at 1:51 AM, Netheris said:

The very moment fullwipe is announced (without keeping assets via magic constructs, talents etc) I would instantly delete the game and cancel sub, rest of my corporation quite likely. Solo players have to invest so much time to be even remotely competitive, small companies same. The only thing a wipe would do is delete the hard work of small groups and individuals, which can sometimes, more often than not, resemble 8 hour shifts. As the game lacks content, those long hours have been often tedious hours of looking for ore, mining, and some fun hours of setting up industry or building ships. I/We play this game on an assumption that this is not a "classic early access game" where you  pay 4-25$ once, and then you get to play and test the game but accept that this is just it - testing period. We pay a monthly subscription like this is a full release and logically - treat it as such.

 

Yes, content is lacking, yes, no matter what you can do in this "sandbox game" at this stage you will end up mining; some people might try trading, there is a point in that role especially post schematics patch. PvP is non-existant atm, expect in a form of an agreed event or pure roflstomp on a person afk slow-boating as they don't have warp. What we need is more content, not a "wipe/restart" which will make us on "even footing" with others. It never will. In fact, it will make things far worse. Think about it - we had some resources if not raw cash before .23. We had a starting point, and we all - some to lesser some to greater extent used it to buy schematics, which allowed us to produce stuff after .23 hit.

 

Now, lets see what you are REALLY asking for:

 

Post hard wipe, Day Zero: You start the game in a starting speed00, happy for a moment that everyone is on "equal footing". After spending weeks to mine stuff, only to sell it to bots (yes, you will have to, because no player will have money to buy if you try to produce screws/pipes), you've built a most basic t1 "factory" producing......hmm, likely L containers AT BEST. "Its a good idea, everyone will need containers". Few days later you've found out the sad truth. Your container's price is bashed to oblivion because so many people had the same idea, solo/small group players like you. You cant sell schematic because others are trying to sell it too. Eventually you can try for half price or so.More mining later, you found a product which sells.  "Meanwhile, deep in the Caribbean", t2 engines are popping on the market, and someone is taking orders for warp drives. They are, ofc, overpriced. With some research, leet "socialskillz", you found out its a 40 man corp, with a fully set t3 factory. "HOW!" you yell? I got work I got family I cant play 24/7! I am quitting this! I cant play more then 4h/day!". After initial rage subsides, you,  determined to keep "even footing for everyone bcs mah rightz", decide to take a vacation and play 2 weeks straight. After enough mining to make your eyes bleed, you look at fully set t1 factory with several t2 schematics. You did good! You are competitive! While selling your hard earned goods on the market, you notice an L ship landing with anti-grav..full of t4/t5 ore....perhaps, after all, it was better to spend the time with family instead of mining....*Looks at calcium in inventory sadly*....*looks at all that cryo on market*.....alt f4.

 

If you want to "catch up" the big orgs, atm, you can. "You, too can have an L core with anti-grav". You, too can farm for "golden pvp ship". You cant replace lots stuff like they do, you are not sitting on a large hoard and you need to work harder to get stuff you want - but at the same time, there is some much more of a feeling of an accomplishment if few people did that, instead of something being just handed to you for "free". Adapt, evolve (destroy when pvp comes actually) and be patient for new content if you believe in game as much as I do, but don't ask for hard wipes without thinking what they ACTUALLY bring - sudden death to all but groups of 30+, who will leave after 3 or 4 months as they wont have anyone to play with, be superior over, or even sell stuff to.

 

Finally, do you really believe that after release hits, and 6 months pass, no one will join game? What will that person who just joined say first? "Omg this needs a hard wipe I cant compete!". Be careful what you wish for.

 

 

I know exactly what I am asking for.

 

The only thing people should keep is their talent exp, and even still tons of people who dont even play this game are racking up exp and talents waiting for a time to come back or something worth coming back to. Just regular blueprints should suffice since you got everything the easy way and you should not be able to magic blueprint your way out of it. Or else people will just hoard everything into containers and take it through with them. If you absolutely need to keep something 1 ship and 1 building core of a specific core size.

 

But you cant honestly say that we should expect new players to deal with all the changes that just came into the game, but we were allowed to just stripmine everything, build massive industries they cant anymore without massive bottlenecks of schematics, destructive elements, broken markets, and soon to be territroy wars on top of it all. I would say it was all ill gotten gains at this point vs what new players or returning players will be faced with when they hyper inflation really starts to kick in.

 

The devs said they would avoid a hard reset at all costs if they could prevent it. They failed and everything is getting more and more out of sync from what people can do because of how easy it used to be vs those who have a progression climb up a cliff face vs the gentle hills up till this point. It needs to happen its just a question of when is the best time to pull the trigger.

 

People should not get hung up on time investment or items or whatever in a beta. If thats you im sorry but wipes are a necessary evil to restore balance. Sorry you spent hundreds/thousands of hours but you should have to experience the game like any new player would/should experience.

 

And honstely if the whole point of this game is to fight huge wars then they need to set this up differently and have 3 solar systems with 1 empty solar system for them to fight over. Everyone in each faction should be allied and unable to pvp each other so that they can actually work together to gather, build, fortify, and attack the rival faction. I think if it just went on until the other side loses as a type of season if it lasts a year or more. That way when its over its over and a new location gets fought over. Or the devs could impose a time limit if after like every 6 months some alien npc invasion force comes in and just starts wrecking face to make people work together or lose anyways. That would be a lot more fun then the current state of the game but wipe the server every so often.

 

[Xennial]

16 minutes ago, Fra119 said:

I might agree with you, but I'm not the one talking for months about planets/moons being mined out. I mean, planets are cool, but this game revolves around ores, if there's the possibility that we are running low on high tier stuff then a new system will be needed soon.

 

I just landed on thades with 3 scanners etc, I opened the map and there are claimed tiles scattered everywhere, how many good stuff is left here? I don't know.

 

I live on Thades there is plenty of ore around. Not in the same density as some planets but it's there. Running low on high tier ore amuses me since up until this patch there was not anything that really required high tier ore at all except a few 'end game' products. What else did they expect to happen when they have bots everywhere deleting ore from the game and the most efficient way to repair for some dumb reason being to burn up high tier ore.

 

Asteroids / auto mining is coming which are for sure going to be infinite resource systems. You do not "need" another solar system to provide ore in the game, all that will be is every planet being a barren waste land with like 5 people living on them. Hell we basically have now anywhere but Alioth. All you have to do to prevent ore being gone is:

 

• Auto mining: outside safe zone (never in safe zone). Each hex has a "deep ore" value that an auto miner can extract X amount of per day. These territories and buildings must be defended with no safe zone around or in the planet at all.
• Asteroids : Put an asteroid ring in unsafe space only. Make it big so PvP types actually have to hunt down people trying to mine and can't just camp a couple rocks spawned in by the devs. This alone would provide endless resources for people to mine. 

Thats it , and poof you don't even need another star system. We don't need one now. We don't need Madis / Thades to be in a safe zone, just provide a bigger sphere around Alioth and it's moons as the safe starter zone.

 

If they allow renewable ore in the safe zone ever you can kiss any idea of PvP being a big feature of this game goodbye.

[Elitez]

7 hours ago, Fra119 said:

It depends, if the new system comes with a community event, like the opening of ahn'qiraj gates in WoW, which takes time and requires almost everyone to cooperate then it's good.

Lethis suggested a few things, never played eve but I guess it's how it works there, it's a good start, it could make us invested in something for weeks or months.

Ahn'Qiraj was fun, i was there Oh them memories Lots of things to do if you want to do something like this. We need players and factions and puzzles and quests, rewards, etc Oh, 2021 is gonna be so fun

[Netheris]

That IS exactly how game works. Look at EvE, from the moment game was released, there were no wipes at all. Game lasts for years. There are people there who played for years (we only play DU for months, remember, so far) like 5 years+, and new players or returning players still join. No one advocates a wipe just because he is a new player or a freshly returned player. 

Schematics: BPO lottery system there allowed people to get t1/t2 BPO, new players have to deal with BPC (Blueprint Original, permanent, infinite runs, vs Blueprint Copies, finite runs, etc) - if we are talking about industry to industry. ANY game of such form has stability and security for its players. They played for years, their property is still there. New players dont have to wait for release, they can join tomorrow - release is not an "argument" for a flood of new players to come and join this game, or shouldn't be. Game should offer that all along, and improve in front of their eyes, and attract people all the way. If someone thinks its not finished, he might join after 2 or 3 years. Will we make a wipe then, just for him?

 

Strip-mine everything section: You are right there 100%. An ore regeneration system should be in place. Right now ore is lacking (especially t3, look at silver on Alioth for example). Right now we are losing even more time mining, and resources are becoming scarce. A ore reset should be done asap , if not for "release", but again "release" is not a reason for new players to join, game itself is...

 

Devs avoiding hard reset: they are right to do so, too many players will leave, then remaining number wont be able to sustain game and when someone asks "how many people are playing it", players in game will say "na its ghosttown but awesome single player" and they wont join - so its good they are avoiding it.

 

Market is already recovering. Missions will add influx of money, schematics will remove money from players currently playing. Balance is coming on its own, and wipe wont change it, wipe would prolong it.

 

Regarding your PVP idea, expanded safe zone would make it fun for industry/mining/"carebear" types of players and a warzone 1 system is a nice idea, but then entire territory warfare idea fails. Safe zone could-should be expanded, maybe, by 1-2 planets WHEN new system arrives which should be just 1 sanctuary rest pvp. Game doesnt have PVE (sadly) , PVP should be main endgame then.

 

Consisent wipes / "seasons" as the model people call it does not fit DU. That is a model for fast paced games where you can do a lot in short time span, have fun all the way, not when you accomplish things. DU is for "hard working" type of players where their time investment pays off in the long run. If you remove that, you removed the point to invest time in the first place, so no thanks.

[Netheris]

9 minutes ago, Xennial said:

I live on Thades there is plenty of ore around. Not in the same density as some planets but it's there. Running low on high tier ore amuses me since up until this patch there was not anything that really required high tier ore at all except a few 'end game' products. What else did they expect to happen when they have bots everywhere deleting ore from the game and the most efficient way to repair for some dumb reason being to burn up high tier ore.

 

Asteroids / auto mining is coming which are for sure going to be infinite resource systems. You do not "need" another solar system to provide ore in the game, all that will be is every planet being a barren waste land with like 5 people living on them. Hell we basically have now anywhere but Alioth. All you have to do to prevent ore being gone is:

 

• Auto mining: outside safe zone (never in safe zone). Each hex has a "deep ore" value that an auto miner can extract X amount of per day. These territories and buildings must be defended with no safe zone around or in the planet at all.
• Asteroids : Put an asteroid ring in unsafe space only. Make it big so PvP types actually have to hunt down people trying to mine and can't just camp a couple rocks spawned in by the devs. This alone would provide endless resources for people to mine. 

Thats it , and poof you don't even need another star system. We don't need one now. We don't need Madis / Thades to be in a safe zone, just provide a bigger sphere around Alioth and it's moons as the safe starter zone.

 

If they allow renewable ore in the safe zone ever you can kiss any idea of PvP being a big feature of this game goodbye.

Thats a really good idea there, to make asteroids spread and numerous and to prevent camping. That way fast small crews can sneak in, steal stuff and have a chance to accomplish something while playing hide and shriek with the pvp predator, rather then just coming into a pvp camp/kill zone. 

 

Renewable ore is needed in the safe zone as well, Its only t1-t3, and its vital to keep non pvp people in game. Remember the herbivores vs carnivores/predators on earth, when one die, so do the other, just a little later.