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Self Destruct Sequence


Warlander
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The PvP in this game is so far beyond broken with no actual defense mechanisms to speak of, I would like to propose a Self Destruct Sequence Button like a switch that would allow players to just blow their ship up completely and permanantly in order to prevent PvPers from stealing cargo or all the hardware off the ships they steal. Seeing as they just dump all the items on the market for cut rate prices as they do not have to mine or craft the items, it does not matter what price they list the items for. And, Seeing as the devs are hell bent on creating hype inflation this is win/win to take tons or items out of the game.

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5 hours ago, Warlander said:

The PvP in this game is so far beyond broken with no actual defense mechanisms to speak of, I would like to propose a Self Destruct Sequence Button like a switch that would allow players to just blow their ship up completely and permanantly in order to prevent PvPers from stealing cargo or all the hardware off the ships they steal. Seeing as they just dump all the items on the market for cut rate prices as they do not have to mine or craft the items, it does not matter what price they list the items for. And, Seeing as the devs are hell bent on creating hype inflation this is win/win to take tons or items out of the game.

This is stupid. A pirate destroys a ship in order to get the cargo. Not only this shouldn't exist but players should be unable to delete their cargo after combat starts. If a pirate kills you they deserve your cargo. Wanting to deny the pirate their loot just because you lost, is beyond butthurt.

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If its such a stupid idea why is it used in real life to keep pirates, terrorists, or armies from getting sensitive material, supplies, arms, or vehicles out of the hands of such people or plots in Sci-fi with the last example I saw being IG-88 in the Manelorian for that exact reason? Pretty stupid I agree.

 

But honestly why would I let you take what I earned knowing full well all the time/effort/risk/and reward are going down the drain to some space pirates using a broken PvP system with no defense mechanics to prevent it considering whomever locks first wins? The PvP tree is a joke and one of the fastest trees vs mining/piloring/industry/crafting for all of the upside and bypassing all the work, money, and effort everyone else has to put in just so you can sit in a lane and steal everything in sight...

 

Thats pretty stupid

 

 

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You do not like piracy i get it. PvP does not work well right now i agree. What people like you tend to ignore is that piracy requires time and effort too and is also risky for the pirate. What you are suggesting is the equivalent to removing pvp all together. You want the game to be like that? Say it out right and be done with it. This is not a solution. If you want to avoid it right now the game gives you the option to warp. This is what i am saying. You have to also think from the mindset of the opossing side to reach a valid conclusion of how a mechanic should work. I am not a pirate in-game but i understand how it should work.

 

You should look at this as a matter of propabilities not as a single hauling instance. How many times will this happen to you out of every time you haul cargo through the pvp zone? Lets say 1/20? Losing everything that one instance would mean a total loss of 5% for you.

 

As the game is right now i do not see a reason not to warp. First of all it saves you the time of traveling at sublight speeds. Time you could use farming the warp cost. Depending on the cargo you carry the cost is a small percentage of the cargo value something like 5-10%. If your ship is engineered correctly and is not some overweight overkill machine that weights 3 times more than it has to, then warping should not be a problem. Most ships tend to be lacking in that department, especially those ships from creators that emphasize on looks.

 

You could also make a ship capable of defending itself and not go alone.

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2 hours ago, Rimezx said:

 

 

You could also make a ship capable of defending itself and not go alone.

There current is no defense, only offense. That is his primary point.

 

If players had defensive mechanisms available to them, in order to try to thwart a pirate/ganker, they'd use that.

 

When and if I am attacked by a pirate, under the current circumstances, the cargo is going out the airlock. That's my sole defensive ability. People moan about that, but allowing that cargo to be taken is just giving more power and incentive to the pirate to keep at it. One of the few disincentives is the lack of cargo to seize.

 

If I get one-shotted or I am unable to dump the cargo before dying, then the pirate has earned what they are able to loot and salvage.

 

2 hours ago, Rimezx said:

Losing everything that one instance would mean a total loss of 5% for you.

Except that losing the freighter is a 100% ship loss, not a partial one. In sheer terms of money, the investment in that freighter are likely tremendous and replacing that without being able to haul freight with requires a much greater investment in time and money than replenishing ammo for the pirate.

 

Right now, beyond being able to avoid combat completely, time is the most crucial factor in determining whether or not a freighter survives an attack. Does the pirate have enough time to kill his victim before it reaches a safe-zone? If not, the freighter captain has to decide, very quickly, what has to be done to make the loss either let painful for himself or the victory less rewarding for the attacker.

 

Adding weapons to the freighter does nothing to save the freighter, especially if attacked by multiple bogies, barring near-miraculous kills on the attacker (which would be more due to the pirate attacking with a severely damaged ship).

 

So, what's left. Going faster in order to reach safety? Nope! 29,999kph is the fastest one can go and if already moving at that speed, well, speed is life as they say.

 

Can he use ECM and ECCM to hinder the attacker's targeting? Does not exist in the game.

 

How about installing shields that prevent/limit damage for at least some amount of time? Try again!

 

Armor, what about armor? The thrust to weight ratios and lack of real, effective, armor honeycomb or elements says no. Armored haulers are only really a thing for military transports, if even then. Look at the armor on modern APCs and compare that to the armor on MBTs. One is paper and the other is far, far, superior to 6" of solid steel.

 

Get friends to man the guns or fly escorts? The nature of the internet is such that it is easier to get together a group of people to hunt, destroy, and loot than it is to get people to be space policemen. Unless there is enough motive for them to do so, for example a mission that provided money or perhaps a fame/rating system, or points towards talents, it takes a dedicated org of players to provide this.

 

So, join and Org and get escorts/gunners that way! Again, there is virtually no content to support this beyond someone's willingness to waste, I mean spend a few hours of their precious game time riding herd on a fat hauler.

 

Thus, unless there are some VERY good friends around, that freighter is going to be running a crew of one, who will be repairing, if possible, while making as quickly as they can for a safe-zone.

 

Warp! Expensive to operate and it takes a good number of warp cells to run, especially when there's only outbound freight for a two-way trip. The freighter captain is running freight, hoping to make enough money to buy and operate a warp drive with warp cells. One bad trip, with little profit or even a loss, and that expensive gizmo is put further out of reach.

 

Now, this is the CURRENT situation for cargo carriers. It will, hopefully, change.

 

For the pirate, they spent money on weapons ammo, and their ship. They sit in the travel lanes, hoping for a target they can kill and loot. ... ... ... ... Anyone killing pirates, today? No. There's no incentive to do so and the risk is too high for solo players.

 

... ... ...

 

The waiting is the cost of being a pirate. No one is really going after you, yet, to any large extent, unless it is someone who just loves ganking people or who really likes this (skill-less) pvp system.  So... ... ...

 

 

And to top it off, should adequate and effective defenses be added to the game, the freighter captains best form of defense...will STILL be to limit the time under which he/she is attacked and to survive just long enough to reach a place they cannot be shot up and killed.

 

Now, I do have hopes for this game and the pvp mechanics of the future. I have a real hankering for engaging pirates and looting their dead bodies, but I am not suicidal and there's got to be some in-game incentive for me to do so. Streaming a few kills on Twitch or YouTube has no interest for me; I don't need to have my ego stroked to have fun.

 

Parasite fighters would be awesome, especially if they could be remotely piloted through surrogate stations. 

 

A fame/infamy system that had its own progression of rewards would be good for all parties.

 

Earning a bonus of talent points for running escort missions, from a mission system, would be an excellent reward.

 

Shields and armor to give the freighter some suitability without giving up too much cargo space (ammo takes up weight and space, yes in ammo containers, but that COULD be cargo).

 

ECM and ECCM to mess with the targeting and gunnery effectiveness of the attackers.

 

A speed limit much higher than it is. If am slowboating (sans warp) and want to make sure I can limit the engagement window, I'd rather be at 100,000kph, because my trip will be that much faster too. Then, I can afford to take a crazy dog-legged trip in order to avoid areas infested with pirates, because it won't take 8 consecutive hours to do it. (I've made a 6 hour trip to Teoma, from a tangent, not direct, course, and it sucks at 29,999kph. I'd certainly do it more often if I could go a lot faster).

 

Well, pirates could go 100,000kph too? Yes, but we're talking SPACE here, not an ocean.  A pirate traveling that fast is either running orbits or figure-eights to remain in the more-traveled areas, so I'd use a tangential course to hopefully avoid that contact. But, I still need to approach my destination and that is where the window of vulnerability comes into play and the pirates know it. It is at that point where they need to try to hit me hard enough for a quick kill, otherwise I only suffer damage, but not lose the ship or cargo.

 

Which is why I have suggested here, but JC has already mentioned, a pvp system where damage can possibly be plied in a more intentionally targeted manner, say at my engines or command seat location, or even core.  And it is here that the true skill in pvp and pirating would emerge, the design of effective ships versus ineffective ships, in the placement of propulsion, core, command, and cargo.

 

I've written enough of a wall, but simply declaring that once a freighter is targeted, it's cargo cannot be deleted, is asinine in a game that already favors the attacker.  Such has been repeated throughout these forums, but is an argument that only looks at how a pirate can benefit and not the natural give and take that exists in reality or should exist within a game that wants to have a rational and realistic basis for what it provides for and allows.

 

I've offered to write a full brief to NQ, as I could go on for about 50,000 words on this subject, but so far they've not expressed an interest. And that is fine, as I also do not make any demands that they do so; I am merely making the offer as a way to provide helpful suggestions for the potential betterment of this game that I enjoy playing.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Penwith said:

There current is no defense, only offense. That is his primary point.

 

If players had defensive mechanisms available to them, in order to try to thwart a pirate/ganker, they'd use that.

 

There is mechanisms aside from the 100% saftey of warp getting shot means you have failed to utilise the many methods to avoid getting ganked.

 

And what is defense without counter attack? Defenses of all types only buy you time they do not make you invincible. 

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46 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

There is mechanisms aside from the 100% saftey of warp getting shot means you have failed to utilise the many methods to avoid getting ganked.

 

No, actually, there's not, not in the case of defense, which I clearly noted.

 

There are tactics, which avoiding combat altogether being one. There is another, less successful, tactic of speeding right at the destination and hoping a pirate isn't there or that they are badly out of position, but that is not a mechanism.

 

50 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

And what is defense without counter attack?

A pure form of defense with every effort made towards one's survival and not spending anything (time, energy, material) to defeating the attacker.  Generally, it is thought to be more effective in many circumstances where killing the opponent is impractical, if not impossible.

 

51 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Defenses of all types only buy you time they do not make you invincible.

Clearly, you did not read or comprehend my words here:

 

9 hours ago, Penwith said:

Right now, beyond being able to avoid combat completely, time is the most crucial factor in determining whether or not a freighter survives an attack.

I never said that defense should make one invincible and it most certainly does not in this game, primarily because there's no real defense once under attack except to rely on time as a means to gain safety.

 

All forms of defensive mechanisms which I have advocated for in these forms (as wells as from many others), all seek to insure survival by manipulating the variables that effect time in combat. A effective damage shield or armor is a method of delaying damage (obviously) and with enough speed and a short enough distance, the defender avoids fatal damage prior to gaining safety.

 

ECM and ECCM would do the same thing, in different ways to be sure.

 

Increasing the current maximum speed would also shorten the time outside of safety.

 

Yet, none of these exist, apart from honeycomb HP. And its relative effectiveness is arguable, especially as it relates to haulers. It may well be more feasible to just use other elements as ablative shields, where they provide a form of damage  but are considered acceptable to lose and their loss will not negatively impact the functioning of the ship.

 

Looking at the elements within the game, they are categorized. When examining the combat and defense elements, it's only weapons. a non-functioning repair unit, and a transponder.

 

It should never be the case that a dedicated pvp ship is outclassed by a dedicated hauler with some weapons attached. Well, you might argue, there shouldn't be dedicated haulers. Which flies in the face of any form of logical reasoning. Of course the hauler should be dedicated to that purpose, to be the most efficient at delivering goods as quickly and least expense as possible.

 

The argument here isn't that the freighter should win a fight against a pirate, but that since there's so few options available to the freighter (these generally being, avoid combat, hope that warp engages before it's too late, hope the pirate has a crappy pilot who turns the wrong way, die), that destruction of one's own cargo and ship should be allowed and not prohibited. If the pirate cannot kill his/her victim quickly, then that's their bust and it's not the responsibility of the freighter to just accept their fate and the loss of ship and cargo to their antagonist.

 

I've ready more than one wannabe-Blackbeard exclaim something along the lines of, "It's not fair! I couldn't kill them before they were able to destroy their cargo! They shouldn't be allowed to DO that! I waited a long time, waiting for someone to come to me so I can take their stuff that they worked hard to accumulate! Waaaaaa! Boo Hoo! Sob Sob!"

 

Okay, maybe they didn't say the last part aloud, but it was between the lines.

 

Of course, I kept the list of defensive mechanisms low, but there's a plethora of counter-measures that could be considered, especially for countering specific weapon systems. For example, chaff vs missiles, ablative armor for lasers, and so on.

 

A cogent and exciting pvp system would not support a single ship-type meta at all. Instead, it would provide the foundation for differently purposed ships, which, when working together, creates a far more threatening environment against their opponents or when used in a balanced way, would perform better than non-combat ships, but be far less effective against ships specialized in their various tasks.

 

So, until such time, if ever, defensive systems and mechanisms are added to the game, it's not unfair for freighter captains to want to destroy their own ship and cargo in order to deny them to their attackers. The pirate may not like it, but the freighter captain isn't all that excited about being attack, either. It's best that both are equally happy and/or equally miserable, and not that one side is favored over the other. And right not, in a combat, the pirate is highly favored.

 

 

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On 12/17/2020 at 10:49 AM, Warlander said:

The PvP in this game is so far beyond broken with no actual defense mechanisms to speak of, I would like to propose a Self Destruct Sequence Button like a switch that would allow players to just blow their ship up completely and permanantly in order to prevent PvPers from stealing cargo or all the hardware off the ships they steal. Seeing as they just dump all the items on the market for cut rate prices as they do not have to mine or craft the items, it does not matter what price they list the items for. And, Seeing as the devs are hell bent on creating hype inflation this is win/win to take tons or items out of the game.

Self destruct is an interesting concept, to be sure! I'll share this idea. :) 

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20 hours ago, Penwith said:

Warp! Expensive to operate and it takes a good number of warp cells to run, especially when there's only outbound freight for a two-way trip. The freighter captain is running freight, hoping to make enough money to buy and operate a warp drive with warp cells. One bad trip, with little profit or even a loss, and that expensive gizmo is put further out of reach.

You are making it sound a lot harder than it actually is. Reality: One successful trip with t3+ cargo is enough to make ~4 warp capable ships.

 

Since you are propably going to try countering this argument without presenting any valid data: one of my cargo haulers is a warp capable ship without AGG. Weight empty 520 tons. Total weight full 2500+ tons. Cost to make about 8mil including warp drive at current market prices. Cargo volume 450KL. Lets say im hauling a cargo of 300KL acanthite from ion to alioth (not accounting for container mass reduction talent). Let's assume acanthite price 100 per 1L and warp cell price 10k per cell. Warp empty trip cost ~75 cells. Warp back full ~313 cells. Total 388 cells or 3.9 million at market price (making your own cells or getting from your org at mats price is a lot cheaper). That would be 30mil worth of cargo at 3.9 mil total warp cost, about 13% cost. If i decided to go without warp i would gain a 13% extra in exchange for ~4 hours of traveling to get back. Whole ship costs a measly 20% of one cargo haul.

 

AGG ships make the cost even less as they can carry much more cargo compared to their own weight. My AGG M core weights 1100 tons empty and can carry up to 14kt of cargo with an S AGG. Warping any material other than hematite is very worthwile.

 

Losing a ship along with the cargo after multiple successful runs would be a meh. Instead of 5% total loss as i stated above it would get to like 6%. So do the math stop beeing a whinny carebear and accept that the game has PvP in it and the players who spend the time required to do it should earn something for it. If you can't handle it don't be a transporter.

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7 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

You are making it sound a lot harder than it actually is. Reality: One successful trip with t3+ cargo is enough to make ~4 warp capable ships.

 

Please, tell me how many newer players can do this from the start? Just how many of those can recover the loss of their only warp capable ship? They need T3+ cargo to make it as profitable as you claim, assuming the prices of T3 ores remain constant or go higher, and not lower. You also assume they make multiple successful runs before losing their ship. Yet, this cannot be assumed as it does not fit reality. Some will be as successful, many will not. It is the nature of the game. Some will lose their ships on the very run they were counting on earning enough to buy a warp engine and the warp cells.

 

So, they'll need at least one scanner to have a good chance at finding a hex with T3 ore in it, likely two or three for the sake of their time, but we can assume just one.

 

They lose that ship to a pirate, before they have warp, then what?

25 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

Since you are propably going to try countering this argument without presenting any valid data: one of my cargo haulers is a warp capable ship without AGG. Weight empty 520 tons. Total weight full 2500+ tons. Cost to make about 8mil including warp drive at current market prices. Cargo volume 450KL. Lets say im hauling a cargo of 300KL acanthite from ion to alioth (not accounting for container mass reduction talent). Let's assume acanthite price 100 per 1L and warp cell price 10k per cell. Warp empty trip cost ~75 cells. Warp back full ~313 cells. Total 388 cells or 3.9 million at market price (making your own cells or getting from your org at mats price is a lot cheaper). That would be 30mil worth of cargo at 3.9 mil total warp cost, about 13% cost. If i decided to go without warp i would gain a 13% extra in exchange for ~4 hours of traveling to get back. Whole ship costs a measly 20% of one cargo haul.

 

This not a presentation of valid data, it is an anecdote. Did you slam into something at the end of your warp and have to repair most of your ship before mining? Did you suffer a lag crash which led to a ship crash and again have expensive repairs to make? A best case scenario is nothing to base a sound pvp system from; ending up with offensive only elements and a cap on the maximum speed a freighter can use to generate a shorter engagement window. It would be equally unfair to limit pvp using the best case scenario for a pirate, who after just a few minutes of waiting happens to score an easy kill and millions worth of loot. Should the ammo containers then be made carry less because it is not needed? How about that awesome pirate who is very good with xs weapons, should we just go with those and get rid of the other weapon sizes as they are not needed?

 

Such would be absurd. I am advocating a balanced system, but in the time spanning now and then, the freighters should not be forced by the game to just give up their cargo and ship when  shot at. It is perfectly legitimate for them to reduce the gain their attacker stands to win and a magical "no!" button or other limitation on their doing so is fundamentally imbalanced. If you one-shot me, you deserve everything you stand to gain. If you don't, I reserve the right to thumb my nose at you as I push all of the more expensive items out the airlock, minus what will fit in my nanopack.

 

Notice,  that these same defensive mechanisms as I and others advocate for would also work for pirates, too, giving them some measure of additional survivability in that very rare situation where they are outmatched, whether by numerous defenders or other, large, pirates/pvpers.
 

12 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

So do the math stop beeing a whinny carebear and accept that the game has PvP in it and the players who spend the time required to do it should earn something for it. If you can't handle it don't be a transporter.

 

I am not whining, but you blind yourself to it. If you bothered to comprehend what I wrote, you'd see that I already accept that pvp exists and look forward to having a complete, and somewhat balanced, pvp system, which does not yet exist in this game.

 

If you can't pull your head out, then we can never expect you to see anything but what you want to see. I have clearly stated the situation as it exists, not how I think it exists, but how it is. I have offered suggestions that would provide some measure of balance, but not at all remove pvp from the game. On the contrary, I think that by adding such mechanism, there'd be far more pvp and the experience for all involved would only improve.

 

And no, just because you put the time in it does not guarantee a return on your investment. There's generally risk involved, and currently, aside from wasting time, there's really no risk to be had for pirates/gankers, except getting jumped by other pirates/gankers.

 

So, stop whining about freighters who'd rather dump their cargo and/or self-destruct when faced with a combat situation they cannot possibly win or hope to survive, because the very necessary defensive measures have not been added to the game. If you cannot kill the target before they rid themselves of the loot you want, then that is because you are bad at it. You deserve nothing and should  only earn what you can gain from the use of better tactics and piloting skill, not because you think that once you point your weapons at someone they should lose all rights to carry on as they are able.

 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Penwith said:

Please, tell me how many newer players can do this from the start? Just how many of those can recover the loss of their only warp capable ship? They need T3+ cargo to make it as profitable as you claim, assuming the prices of T3 ores remain constant or go higher, and not lower. You also assume they make multiple successful runs before losing their ship. Yet, this cannot be assumed as it does not fit reality. Some will be as successful, many will not. It is the nature of the game. Some will lose their ships on the very run they were counting on earning enough to buy a warp engine and the warp cells.

 

So, they'll need at least one scanner to have a good chance at finding a hex with T3 ore in it, likely two or three for the sake of their time, but we can assume just one.

 

They lose that ship to a pirate, before they have warp, then what?

As usual missinterpreting every possible sentence that can be missinterpreted without reading thinking.. anyway. A starter has no business flying into the pvp zone before they have warp and understand how it works. If they do then it is their choice. You can start with a less expensive smaller ship. Anyone with an IQ greater than 50 can understand how to make the no warp trip safer. Chances are overwhelmingly higher to just pass undetected that to get into trouble. So we do not have to account for that one unlucky person that gets ganked their first time trying.

 

Farming a scanner takes a few hours. Farming a warp capable ship after finding a mega with the scanner takes about 4 hours.

 

It is just as worthwile carying t1 ore. Simple you load light ore like bauxite or coal put more containers on a ship until you fill it and same profit. Even you don't fill the ship its still worthwile to do. Doesn't have to be t3 that was a simple example. Carying any quantity of t4 makes it even more worthwile.

 

21 minutes ago, Penwith said:

This not a presentation of valid data, it is an anecdote.

100% valid data. If you wanna see the said ship you can come take a look at it anytime. Rest of that paragraph is off the topic. Repair costs from crashing have nothing to do with our point about warping and pvp.

 

I have been flying back and forth from virtually everywhere multiple times. Never happened to crash due to lag. Yes i got lag spikes here and there, even some game crashes very rarely, but not enough to bring me down. If it happens its gonna be like 1/200 flights. Out of maybe 200 trips i crashed one time because i was being overconfident and reckless. And another time that i managed to hit a space elevator with a speed of 3900 at alioth low orbit. Again this has nothing to do with it.

 

It is apparent to me that you do not want to do the math not that you cannot do it. Because the numbers simply prove you wrong.

34 minutes ago, Penwith said:

It would be equally unfair to limit pvp using the best case scenario for a pirate, who after just a few minutes of waiting happens to score an easy kill and millions worth of loot.

This generally never happens unless you are the luckiest guy in du.

 

58 minutes ago, Penwith said:

And no, just because you put the time in it does not guarantee a return on your investment. There's generally risk involved, and currently, aside from wasting time, there's really no risk to be had for pirates/gankers, except getting jumped by other pirates/gankers.

Warp is 100% gurantee. Not warping is a choice. Also stop looking at this a single instance of losing everything. You have to calculate this as cost in the long run over multiple attemps, while assesing the chances of success and loss. Do you understand how propabilities work in math? Go play some black desert and you'll figure it out.

 

45 minutes ago, Penwith said:

the freighters should not be forced by the game to just give up their cargo and ship when  shot at. It is perfectly legitimate for them to reduce the gain their attacker stands to win and a magical "no!" button or other limitation on their doing so is fundamentally imbalanced.

This is precicely what should happen if you get caught and killed. What could happen instead is if there was a form of communication between pirate and prey, so the prey could voluntarily hand their cargo to the pirate so that they dont harm the ship if loss unavoidable. Deleting your loot is just a micro penis move. Like a crybaby. I know NQ won't listen to bs like this anyway, but i feel like answering you.

 

P.S. I am on the prey side not a pirate and saying this. When and if pvp works fine i'd love to be a "bounty hunter".

 

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2 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

 

100% valid data. If you wanna see the said ship you can come take a look at it anytime. Rest of that paragraph is off the topic. Repair costs from crashing have nothing to do with our point about warping and pvp.

 

 

 

 

It is an anecdote. It is one result out of many thousands, currently, of possible. Gathering the results from multiple hundreds of individual cases of hauling freight from thousands of players, without cherry picking, is valid data.

 

Within the entire context of this argument is risk vs reward. Elements of risk, including crashing with a fully loaded (or empty for that matter) freighter is a part of the risk. That same risk is not borne by a space-only pirate. Therefore, including that is not off topic, but rather an inclusion of what should be obvious. There are extremes to this measurement, and they need to be accounted for when looking at options for game mechanisms, at least to see whether or not they are game-breaking or far too rewarding. It is within these two bounds that the vast majority of player experiences should fall.

 

My argument applies not only to the now, but also the future of the game, given that pvp is due for an overhaul, or at least an expansion, and people are advocating for something to be done in the now, such as self-destruction on the one end and prevention of players from dumping cargo on the other.

 

This isn't even an argument over whether or not a player must warp to avoid combat, while it is a smarter move, not everyone now nor in the future will be able to make that choice. Slowboating does bear a much greater measure of risk, given that warping to a safe zone (that currently exists) around the other planets is guaranteed to work. Except, there's no avoidance mechanism on the other end and more than one ship has ended up severely damaged from a collision they could not know about or avoid in time. But that's another discussion. Given that warp engines are 100% successful, why then do pirates exist, knowing that they cannot intercept a warping ship? Because not everyone can or is able to do so, and thus leave themselves open to attack. If players ONLY warped, then we're going to get even more demands for webbers or warp disruptors by wannabe-pirates who feel that life is very unfair in that they cannot find easy victims, which leads us precisely back to this same argument.

 

It is here that the issue of attack and defense comes into play. If resolved sooner, rather than at some distant point when things are even more set in stone, it is better for us all.

 

With that said, I can see where you and I have overlapping areas of agreement, but then their remains this vast chasm, also.

 

I am a firm believer in a nearly-balanced pvp system. I state nearly because I think true balance is either not achievable or ultimately far too boring to contemplate. Given this, there must always be tweaks, here and there, to fine-tune the systems which lay at the heart of combat.

 

My primary pvp experience, in space combat, is EVE, which is probably the best iteration of a working system around, but even then it gets tweaked and adjusted and there  are some problems that have cropped up over the years. Yet, I am not calling for that system to be put into place here, one reason being that the scales are different, another being the method of ship construction and design.

 

Were I attacked and to decide to dump my cargo, it's not because I am making a dick-move, it's because I know that the loot will not only encourage the pirate to remain a pirate (and I loath pirates everywhere), but also would actively support them in maintain, refueling, and rearming their ship. Denying pirates these resources benefits all other haulers, as a result.

 

Additionally, warping being 100% safe may well become a thing of the past, eventually, should the safe zone around planets disappear or new planets/solar systems be added that do not have them. Do we await that time to address the issue or do we discuss it now, find a workable and acceptable solution and then promote that to NQ in the form of suggestions that other players can vote on.

 

I'd really like to see a far more robust combat system, one which requires actual skill from the trigger-pullers, but which gives the defenders something to work with to assist in survivabiilty, beyond the avoidance of combat entirely. It should be obvious that there may well be something down that road that limits the use and functioning of warp drives, such as flying through a gas cloud, and again we return to this very issue if not already addressed and resolved.

 

Your repeated calls for doing the maths is meaningless in this case, because again, that is not at the heart of the argument. Some will find it unaffordable to them and others will find it extremely so. Great. This argument comes down to those times when combat is unavoidable, what options exist for both sides, and what mechanisms are available to the attacker and what are available to the defender. Again, again, and again, when combat cannot otherwise be avoided, regardless of the reason, the attacker has all of the mechanisms and the defender only two real options, to try to run or to die, because fighting it out is a false option for a true freighter vs true pirate/pvper encounter.

 

Because of the speed limit, outrunning a pirate can only be done if that pilot makes a grievous error. So the only other current option is surrender or die, which amounts to the same thing due to the lack of a comms system. Even did such exist, one would have to rely on the mercy of pirates, which is laughable.

 

Bringing us back to...this game needs defensive mechanisms that players can then elect to use for self-defense and/or preservation. A self-destruct mechanism is one of denial of resources that go to feed piracy.

 

I am not saying that such would simply work when a button was pushed. Rather, I would like to see it where, if the pirate acts quickly enough, they can thwart the self-destruct command, either by destroying that element when in combat or by boarding in enough time to shut it off after repairing the core.

 

There are a great many possibilities, but all are prevented if we knee-jerkingly react with "unfair to pirates."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Penwith said:

 

Please, tell me how many newer players can do this from the start? Just how many of those can recover the loss of their only warp capable ship? They need T3+ cargo to make it as profitable as you claim, assuming the prices of T3 ores remain constant or go higher, and not lower. You also assume they make multiple successful runs before losing their ship. Yet, this cannot be assumed as it does not fit reality. Some will be as successful, many will not. It is the nature of the game. Some will lose their ships on the very run they were counting on earning enough to buy a warp engine and the warp cells.

T3+ because there is absolutly no need to leave the safe zone for t1/t2s, you don't fly what you are not prepared to lose.

 

There are no mechanisms that can enable a new player to be invincable, what ever is provided they will not know how to use or be ignorant of their very existance as we saw we the many players with expensive ships slow boating in pvp space who had failed to include something as cheap as a radar. 

 

You understand it can only get more dangerous for a hauler, the warp drive is the ultimate get out of free card when that is balanced no amount of countermeasures will match the 100% saftey it provides. 

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I agree with most of your last post @Penwith.

 

Regarding this,

2 hours ago, Penwith said:

It is an anecdote. It is one result out of many thousands, currently, of possible. Gathering the results from multiple hundreds of individual cases of hauling freight from thousands of players, without cherry picking, is valid data.

The game gives you the means to achieve this result. Every ship built with this logic would achieve fairly similar results. If for whatever reason a player builds a badly engineered ship then goes ahead claiming warping is not worthwile because of it, then it's not the game's fault. You reap what you sow. I am not going to calculate with how the average ship is built or how the average person flies it. It wouldn't make sense to do so. People can always buy such a ship and learn to fly it. Some people just put 50 vertical engines or a million brakes on a ship because they fail to land otherwise and then they go and start complaining about the fuel cost, which is hillarious. Fuel is very cheap in this game.

 

For me to consider not warping over the pvp zone the cost would have to be x3-4 times the current cost. Otherwise it saves me time and trouble. I've warped many times. Never was in any danger of hitting something. Chances are very slim in space anyway and i don't know if you even get damaged if you collide with something during warp.

 

Denying the pirate their loot even at the current pvp conditions is not the solution tho in my opinion. Having a safe warp option is already a blow to pirates. Are you trying to get all the pirates to quit the game? Because if i was a pirate and i saw a change like that i would unistall.

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17 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

Denying the pirate their loot even at the current pvp conditions is not the solution tho in my opinion. Having a safe warp option is already a blow to pirates. Are you trying to get all the pirates to quit the game? Because if i was a pirate and i saw a change like that i would unistall.

 

Hell, the way pvp is right now, I am surprised there are as many as happen to claim to be, atm.

 

As I mentioned, there needs to be a near-balance, and in the case of a self-destruct element, I provided some examples of how that could be overcome. Neither side of a contest should have an "I win" button.

 

Whether it is good ship design and good game playing to have a warp drive is immaterial, it will happen, regardless. People will make poor choices, but beyond that as I stated, there may well be, and I expect there to be, situations where a warp drive simply cannot function. In such cases, there must be further consideration as to a balance between both attacker and defender, freighter vs pirate.

 

Again, by looking at the issues now, we can avoid similar reactions in the future, and also make good suggestions for NQ to consider about how pvp would best work for this game. I can tell you, I've not done pvp here, I don't need to, to understand how terrible it is.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

T3+ because there is absolutly no need to leave the safe zone for t1/t2s, you don't fly what you are not prepared to lose.

 

There are no mechanisms that can enable a new player to be invincable, what ever is provided they will not know how to use or be ignorant of their very existance as we saw we the many players with expensive ships slow boating in pvp space who had failed to include something as cheap as a radar. 

 

You understand it can only get more dangerous for a hauler, the warp drive is the ultimate get out of free card when that is balanced no amount of countermeasures will match the 100% saftey it provides. 

Except people do, to get away from the mess on Alioth.

 

There's no invincible mechanism. I did not refer to such, whether it apply to new players or salty veteran players. No one in this thread has asked for such.

 

If you paid any attention to what I actually wrote, you'd see the argument more clearly.

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5 hours ago, Rimezx said:

and accept that the game has PvP in it and the players who spend the time required to do it should earn something for it. If you can't handle it don't be a transporter.

 

So let me get this straight. Because I manage to make good coin off of hauling I should allow you to get some of that juicy stuff without question.. That's not how this works and it's quite amusing to see how several of the PVP focused players tend to feel they are entitled to just be handed another player's cargo for some reason. Spending time being a pirate does not "earn you the right" to anything. The idea is that you take it, not that it is left for you to collect. If you can't handle that characters in game will do what they can to deny what you are trying to take from them then maybe your pirating skills are somewhat lacking.

Let's put it like this, if you manage to get to me, kill the ship and have me respawn elsewhere you are welcome to take what I am carrying .. If you leave me opportunity to destroy my cargo or blow up my ship then you should get better at your profession..  As a character in game, I do not owe you anything here and I can do whatever I feel I should with _my_ cargo and ship, up to and including blowing it up to prevent you from getting your hands on it. The loss to me is the same and I deny you the opportunity to benefit and see nothing wrong with that at all. The misplaced sense of entitlement here is quite funny actually.

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2 hours ago, Rimezx said:

For me to consider not warping over the pvp zone the cost would have to be x3-4 times the current cost. Otherwise it saves me time and trouble. I've warped many times. Never was in any danger of hitting something. Chances are very slim in space anyway and i don't know if you even get damaged if you collide with something during warp.

There is no collisions during warp, you can go right through planets and space stations, i once had a issue with bouncing off a planet for a while instead of clipping thought it like 10 bounces before i went through no damage :)

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2 hours ago, Penwith said:

Except people do, to get away from the mess on Alioth.

 

There's no invincible mechanism. I did not refer to such, whether it apply to new players or salty veteran players. No one in this thread has asked for such.

 

If you paid any attention to what I actually wrote, you'd see the argument more clearly.

All you have to do is go to the other side of Alioth, its empty.

 

The more you write the less your argument makes sense, i mean you are dropping examples of newbies in pvp space, and keep shifting the context around.

 

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7 hours ago, HellToupee said:

All you have to do is go to the other side of Alioth, its empty.

 

The more you write the less your argument makes sense, i mean you are dropping examples of newbies in pvp space, and keep shifting the context around.

 

Do try to keep up.

 

The primary consideration is the for the long-term, but short-term considerations must also be accounted and, if possible, resolved before they become an issue that will require a larger response in the future. One only need look at the shift in industry from 0.23 and see that had it been dealt with from the start of beta, the resultant anger and rage would have been much less.

 

As this game grows, presumably with full release, there will be new players who venture off into pvp space, not fully realizing the hazards. There will be knowledgeable who, for whatever reasons, feel they need to or just want to hazard the risks anyways, and then there will be times that warp is just not on the table; I did mention that this could be in the form of flying through a gas cloud, but there are other possible reasons. Do I need to fully explain that the direction this game is going, or that at least JC is hinting at, will include more resources than just the solid ores and two gases that are currently in the game? But we do not even need to speculate as to that as the possibilities for why one is slowboating already exist.

 

So, how is the disparity between an attacker and defender to be addressed? Which is where this suggestion presumably originated.

 

Warp exists, without any real counter presently. However, reading dev comments throughout the forums, one can expect a counter to be added at some point. Thus, this takes the argument back to, how does a defender deal with being attacked when warp is out of the picture. Why it is out of the picture does not matter...at all...for this question.

 

If an unarmed defender is in this above stated circumstance, should the only option left to them is to allow their ship to be destroyed/capture and their cargo looted?  The argument of many, not just that of myself or the OP, is no.

 

There should be various defensive mechanisms that would help increase survivability, to allow for the possibility of escape. There may be a need for a final resort to self-destruction, to deny resources that would fund the pirate who is currently attacking.

 

In this case, should this self-destruct mechanism be free of interference and therefore unstoppable? I'm arguing to the contrary. 

 

The amount of financial loss from losing a ship and cargo is immaterial. It's the property of the player, losing any percentage, especially a continuing loss, is bad for business. The fact that warp engines are relatively cheap is also immaterial, because the argument revolves around situations where combat cannot be avoided.

 

As it stands, right now, no defensive element exists that adds to the survivability of a ship in combat, except weapons, for which a dedicated freighter has little mass to spare. If the freighter is armed, giving up a portion of mass that would otherwise generate profits (ideally), that still does not add to its survivability when facing a ship designed to attack another ship. Where does that leave us as far as a balanced combat system for pvp? With all the advantages to an attacker.

 

Now, if you have two players who consensually enter into combat, then that's fine.as they both understand the situation before battle. When combat occurs between two parties where one does not consent, that leaves a player feeling helpless (with the odd exception) and frustrated that there's nothing they can do...at all, except hope their opponent makes a serious mistake.  

 

Put in other terms, it's seal clubbing in an MMO. The attacker gets great joy, entertainment, and wealth from the activity, but the victim has no recourse and no choice, end of story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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