0.23 review + suggestions for NQ going foward

[Physics]

I think it goes without saying the base foundation behind the schematic system is actually a good idea, however the desisions on how NQ released the system within 0.23 was poorly thought out and was extemely damaging to the game and playbase as a result. What NQ should of done with such a drastic change was to ensure the playerbase was equipped to handle it. The mission system and other forms of quanta generation should of been the focus of 0.23 and the schematic system should of been scheduled for a later patch. It is too late now the damage has been done. NQ now needs to work on ways to restore the game and try and earn the trust of what i believe is the majority of the community back.

 

With that said and after many discussions in different discord servers and in ATV, i would like to put foward some of my own suggestions for NQ to think and talk about in one of their many many meetings.

 

First the schematic system. The idea behind the system NQ had was to slow progession of people achieving end-game production of elements / items. NQ choosing to use this system to impose a hard quanta lock out is destined to fail horribly in my opinion and creates a bad power vacuum on the markets. NQ can still fix this by adjusting the base bot formula from P = 500 * 1.5^Tier * max(100, SchematicsRunTime) to P = 100 * 1.5^Tier * max(100, SchematicsRunTime) and having some elements placed on an exception list that does not have element stats such as Warp Beacons, following this NQ can work on a new more involved idea of industry progression while still using the schematic system (Reverse Engineering).

 

Reverse Engineering. The idea behind this system is so everyone in the game can start producing items / elements again with out too much trouble. However if you want to be able to produce the best items in the game and make a reputation for yourself and your future store you are going to have to work for it!  The reverse engineering system is aimed at all elements / items that has specific stats. How could this system work? Every element can be reverse engineered by the element creator or organisation legate if the element was made in an org machine. This is done by simply right clicking the element in the nano pack or container and choosing the reverse engineer option. When an element is reverse engineerd it is destroyed giving back just a few of the base components / pures used to create the element. The amount of return is dependent on the current state of the element (how many lives left in current system). However there is a very small RNG chance the reverse engineer may produce a new schematic for the same element but one of the stats is now boosted on this schematic say +10% HP. The reverse engineer can now plug this schematic in to the industry and produce these improved elements.

 

With the new elements produced the person / org can now have the option to reverse engineer again destroying the improved elements to have a chance of gaining yet another upgraded schematic with the same stat resulting in +20% HP or another stat maybe improved, for example on an engine you may now get a schematic result of +10% HP & +10% max thrust. This process can be repeated again and again until a game cap on the schematic is reached of +50% stats across the board. Great this engineer now has a game capped schematic to produce the best engines possible, but it cost them a good few hundred or couple thousand elements to get there!

 

I feel that this approach to progression is far more better and immersive than this cold hard quanta lock out on elements.

 

Moving on is the problem with constructs retaining momentum when a player logs back on or someone enters rendar range. This has caused all sorts of problems to fix a very minor one. The current system needs to be reversed asap until NQ has had more time and resources to deploy a much better system in govening this. When improving on this some gameplay rules need to apply. When a core is killed in space it need all momentum taken away. Im sorry but i do not see a better option in the near future for this, gameplay trumps realism in this regard plain and simple.

 

I have more suggestions than time writing this so i'll update this first post with my other feedback later.

 

 

 

 

[Hiturn]

The problem with the formula is that the ROI of the items depends on Schematics Run Time ^2 and things get uncontrolled for higher tier.

 

An schematic for a more complex engine/part cost more because takes more time (and the 1.5^tier)   and you can produce less parts a day despite using larger assemblers.

 

I am gonna exclude intermediaries for simplicty lets set ROI for 30 days of non-stop production for the example: 

 

A t1 engine schem cost around 5M and you build 1 each 2 hours . 12 engines /day .In 30 days you build 360engines . 5M/360engines is barely 13K added cost per engine. Very affordable probably too much.

A t2 engine schem cost around 25 and you build 1 each 6 hours . 4 engines/day.  In 30 days 120 engines.25M/120 is 208k per engine.

 

A t3 engine schem cost 116M and takes 19hours to build , 1.26/day 38/month .116M/38 =3M added cost per engine.

 

A t4 engine schem cost 500M and takes 2 days. 15 a month =500M/15= 33M added cost per engine.

13K->208k->3M->33M

 

Who is gonna pay 33M+production cost for a 3 lives T4 engine ? Nobody. Even if you set a ROI of 6 months (x6) the added cost is still 5.5M to break even.Still noone thinks those engines are worth that much money(mining hours) stats wise.You can't set ROIs larger than patch cycle in a game you just wiped without warning.This ROis are unreasonable for a unstable alpha game. 

 

Remember I excluded all the intermediaries to make things easier to show.Those advanced frames and combustion chambers aren't cheap and you need various lines of engines to make sure they are working non-stop.

The best thing the devs can do is adjust those times to reasonable levels and then when the game is feature complete wipe it and adjust it how they please with the guarantee that your progress will remain and there are additional ways to get cash or maybe the licenses itself.

 

 

[vylqun]

I disagree on the reverse engineering mechanic, it doesn't make much sense to improve the part when you reverse engineer it, more often than not it would be worse. 

 

I'd much rather have a talent tree dedicated to achematics and research and additional elements that feed on schematics and their finished elements to improve one schematic by a small amount.

[blazemonger]

While not a bad idea in itself, I'd prefer to see a research/invention option on schematics themselves as I described in another post ..

 

Why the Industry changes are no good [DISCUSSION.. - General Discussions - Dual Universe (dualthegame.com)

[Demlock]

On 12/15/2020 at 8:29 AM, Physics said:

 

With the new elements produced the person / org can now have the option to reverse engineer again destroying the improved elements to have a chance of gaining yet another upgraded schematic with the same stat resulting in +20% HP or another stat maybe improved, for example on an engine you may now get a schematic result of +10% HP & +10% max thrust. This process can be repeated again and again until a game cap on the schematic is reached of +50% stats across the board. Great this engineer now has a game capped schematic to produce the best engines possible, but it cost them a good few hundred or couple thousand elements to get there!

 

 

This is a very good idea

however, it conflicts with recycling aspect of the game to some degree.

But I do see it's use in DU.

 

Really I thin, if NQ goes the cheap and easy route they should just make most of the T-1 elements up to medium sized items require no schematics or at least make those schematics all available on alioth

 

Then provide a streamlined and easy way for people to access them. In addition to an indicator letting them know they can get most of the T-1 stuff at the markets but anything higher will require them to travel off world... using the T-1 elements made on alioth.

 

The monster of .23 schematics is here so now the best the to do is for NQ to reconfigure it so it sits better with the community's ability to grow.

Right now, it's too steep of a learning curve for the newbies and too strict of a game limitation that breaks more newbies than makes them.

 

As a result, the population dwindles.

 

Even if none of these ideas are adopted, one thing most of us can agree on is that the way schematics limit progression for new people in DU needs to change drastically.

Otherwise DU won't hit those Beta launch numbers ever again.

[Zeddrick]

It's an interesting idea, but like the original schematic solution it doesn't actually fix the problems with the game.  Industry in the game is fundamentally broken because there are no limits on what a player can do.  If you put no limits on things, some players will take things to the extreme and spoil it for everyone else.  Imagine you allowed a single player to have an unlimited amount of guns fitted to a ship (so long as you can actually put them on a construct) and fire them all while flying.  What do you think the hardcore players' PvP ships would look like and what do you think would happen to everyone else who tried to PvP against them?

 

Industry is just the same -- they allowed players to run an infinite number of production jobs all at once in an MMO.  Most players just had fun but a few hardcore ones made factories with literally 1000s of machines running at once.  So NQ notices this and says 'No single player should have that sort of production capability' and introduces schematics to fix it.  But schematics only fix things for the 'normal' players.  The hardcore ones just bought a large number of schematics (through a combination of building a ton of things in advance of 0.23 and selling them cheap afterwards, mining to bot orders a *lot*, getting lucky with the cheap schematic blunder or just plain working hard at industry).  Now those people have huge megafactories again, but the rest of us can't have our smaller factories back because we're unlikely to make back the money we invest in schematics while competing against those megafactories.  Meanwhile the megafactories just get bigger and the gap gets wider.

 

I don't really think the suggestion above fixes any of this.  The very wealthy mega-factory owners will be able to adapt to it easily and still flood the market with barely-above-cost items but everyone else will still struggle to make back their initial investment.

 

They could fix the whole thing with one simple, easy change - put limits on the number of production jobs which a character can have running at once.  Make it so you can only have 20 machines on 'run' or 'maintain' at any one time, trainable to 100 with a month of training and 200 with another 2 months.  No character can ever be running more than 200 machines at once.

 

People could still have their factories that make everything for their ship building (or whatever) if they want to, they'd just have to start/stop machines as appropriate or write LUA to do that for them (and be logged in to run it).  But if you want to have 5,000 machines running at once you'd better have at least 25 max-skilled friends to help you, which makes sense because that's a 'large org' type of production capacity.  Solo industrialists will need to choose between making fewer lines or buying intermediates from the market instead of making them, either of which would be good for the market.  It's likely the change would create exactly the sort of market for intermediates that NQ want but which the schematic changes fail to generate (because if you're buying the expensive schematics you might as well buy all the much cheaper intermediate ones too so you can guarantee your supply).

 

And you wouldn't even need to reset or wipe industry -- the game could just keep going after a 2 week warning.  Mega factory owners get time to make a ton of stock to keep the market running while it adjusts to the change and to help them recover some of their money back.  Have the game buy back schematics at 90% of sell price to let them cash out too.

 

 

[Zeddrick]

2 hours ago, Demlock said:

 

 

Even if none of these ideas are adopted, one thing most of us can agree on is that the way schematics limit progression for new people in DU needs to change drastically.

Otherwise DU won't hit those Beta launch numbers ever again.

I do agree schematics are one of the things which limit progression, but I don't think they are the only or even the worst thing.  IMO The worst thing NQ has done in that regard is to put 'materials required reduction' types of skill into the game while not creating a market for intermediates.  That means that in order to make anything you need to train a large number of skills for refining input, refining output, materials input, materials output and basic components in order to get the material cost down to sensible levels.

 

When combined, these skills add up to more than a 50% reduction in the material requirements for any given element.  They got away with that for a while but eventually people got those talents up to 5 and were then making things at maximum efficiency.  Now if someone has a 50% material reduction and is only making a 10% profit, how is a new player ever going to compete with that, schematics or no?  They have to train skills for literally months before they can even make the thing as cheaply as others are selling it.

 

Combined with limits to production lines, I'd change all the material skills to 'time to manufacure' ones.  That way they still have value as they effectively multiply up the limted production runs you can do while still allowing a new player to come along and be competitive (they can't make as many items per day, but they can make the same 10% proffit per item as an experienced player).

[NQ-Naerais]

Why are we necroposting?

Also keep it on topic.  Constructive criticism is welcome, trolling it not. 

[le_souriceau]

1 hour ago, NQ-Naerais said:

 Constructive criticism is welcome...

We tried...

 

[Treelover69]

On 3/27/2021 at 10:11 AM, Zeddrick said:

I don't really think the suggestion above fixes any of this.  The very wealthy mega-factory owners will be able to adapt to it easily and still flood the market with barely-above-cost items but everyone else will still struggle to make back their initial investment.

 

They could fix the whole thing with one simple, easy change - put limits on the number of production jobs which a character can have running at once.  Make it so you can only have 20 machines on 'run' or 'maintain' at any one time, trainable to 100 with a month of training and 200 with another 2 months.  No character can ever be running more than 200 machines at once.

Yea i agree with this. I thought talents could do something like this, where you had to choose your industry manufacturing and could only have X number of things chosen at any given time - maybe with a cooldown so it couldn't be swapped around instantly to w/e you need on a whim. This is assuming the design goal was to encourage trade and not just have everyone with generalist factories.

 

Either way, the volume/diversity of industry needs to be toned way down given the current oversupply & no sink problems if natural trade is going to thrive.

[Vasten]

9 hours ago, NQ-Naerais said:

Why are we necroposting?

Also keep it on topic.  Constructive criticism is welcome, trolling it not. 

The opportunity cost for using the market is way too high

 

The time required to go to market due to lag means the markets have a massive economic opportunity cost

 

Selling at markets requires hauling good directly to location of intended offer without knowing if/when it will sell

 

This is already on top of the fact that We already have to travel long distances to get to market buying fuel and time, risking a crash due to lag

 

 

There is only one problem that needs to be dealt with.... loading lag

 

Until then the "use the market" mantra is meaningless when you factor in the time opportunity cost, fuel cost, and risk factor

 

The markets are useless in their current state

 

Cant you just put market terminal outside](loading the elevator can take a long time])

 

And force market terminals to load first priority before all other contructs?

 

Please start Factoring in time opportunity cost.. we as always do.. you cant ignore it, it's the most important factor

[Zeddrick]

On 3/29/2021 at 8:47 PM, NQ-Naerais said:

Why are we necroposting?

Also keep it on topic.  Constructive criticism is welcome, trolling it not. 

I didn't notice it was an old thread, it was at the top.  Some forums lock old threads to stop that sort of thing from happening.

 

And I thought I was being constructive.  I'll stop.

 

[GraXXoR]

On 3/30/2021 at 4:47 AM, NQ-Naerais said:

Why are we necroposting?

Also keep it on topic.  Constructive criticism is welcome, trolling it not. 

What trolling? At a cursory glance, it seemed like a fairly mundane thread to me. 

[NQ-Naerais]

16 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

What trolling? At a cursory glance, it seemed like a fairly mundane thread to me. 

That's because I removed it

@Zeddrick We've debated turning that on Generally we ask that you don't necropost, the topic is fine.  I have removed the comments that did not meet the Code of Conduct however, the rest is ok. 

[NQ-Naerais]

4 minutes ago, FuriousPuppy said:

is there going to be a comment or stream made by NQ thats game related? the last thing they did was make a trailer for the 0.24 update with no commentary or anything in regards to the amount of grief people are feeling over the beta and lack of bug fixes

3 months before that we got the end of the year video with JC with a tempting looking trailer but we have yet to see anything or any progress towards those new things

There are no immediate plans for a stream. But we are prepping more communications (devblogs and general state etc). 

[Zeddrick]

26 minutes ago, NQ-Naerais said:

That's because I removed it

@Zeddrick We've debated turning that on Generally we ask that you don't necropost, the topic is fine.  I have removed the comments that did not meet the Code of Conduct however, the rest is ok. 

You removed my comments?  If you hadn't pointed it out I wouldn't have noticed.  I wonder what I said?

 

Or was it someone else's post?