Refining makes ore worthless ??

[TheDecline]

Hi all I understand You refine the ores to then craft further,

but as a new player i thought if i mined and then refined id be getting more money than if i just sold the raw ore

 

Refining turned my big stack of Bauxite into a ally and the price was 0.60 per unit, if id just sold the baux id have got far more.

 

Am i missing something ?

[Verliezer]

Yeah, what I understood is the current prices for Ore are doubled (Holiday kinda bonus). After the holidays prices should return to normal (12.5 Quantas). That would make selling (half) products profitable again.

[XKentX]

You are right, NQ calls it economy balance.

[TheDecline]

ewww

 

I may give this a wide birth for a while then, was hoping to just play a miner/refiner/trucker sort of toon.

 

 

[XKentX]

Just now, TheDecline said:

ewww

 

I may give this a wide birth for a while then, was hoping to just play a miner/refiner/trucker sort of toon.

 

 

Just wait like a week or two. The last patch turned all the economy upside down so nothing currently makes sense.

 

Once it stabilizes you should be good.

But I would recommend to either refine + smelt or sell raw. Don't just refine. It will be easier to sell I believe (I buy raw, never check pures).

Do your math once the market is stable.

[OverLordByron]

The increased price of raw ore is not a "holiday bonus"... Lol ? 

 

Most players can only do low tier ore mining due to the. .23 Death Patch. Which made this game unplayable for solo and small org players. 

[XKentX]

2 minutes ago, OverLordByron said:

The increased price of raw ore is not a "holiday bonus"... Lol ? 

 

Most players can only do low tier ore mining due to the. .23 Death Patch. Which made this game unplayable for solo and small org players. 

If you are leaving, can I have your stuff ?

[Underhook]

7 hours ago, TheDecline said:

ewww

 

I may give this a wide birth for a while then, was hoping to just play a miner/refiner/trucker sort of toon.

 

 

I took a bit of a risk with the skill reset.  I have gone the trucker route as I really don't like mining.'

The only industry I have is enough to make my own fuel and T2 scrap.  Also plastic because I do a lot of building with plastic and its the same machine that makes fuel.

All my skills are in Piloting and Container, fuel tank weight reduction.

So, far I have done OK just transporting Schematics and selling them on the market.  Only needed my personal transport for that.  I have all of my old parts on the market as well as ore and refined but hardly any of it is selling.  95% of my sales currently are schematics.  That said the schematics market is not so good now.  Instead of simply matching the price players are undercutting by 50% at a time.  As XKentX says, its probably going to be a couple of weeks before the market stabilises.  Players are not buying parts because they dont have the machines to use those parts or the quanta since schematics took a lot of quanta out of the market place.

[Underhook]

7 hours ago, OverLordByron said:

The increased price of raw ore is not a "holiday bonus"... Lol ? 

 

Most players can only do low tier ore mining due to the. .23 Death Patch. Which made this game unplayable for solo and small org players. 

Did, I miss something.  Why can most players only do low tier mining?  

[Penwith]

7 hours ago, OverLordByron said:

The increased price of raw ore is not a "holiday bonus"... Lol ? 

 

Most players can only do low tier ore mining due to the. .23 Death Patch. Which made this game unplayable for solo and small org players. 

I play solo, almost 100%, and I am still playing, still building, still traveling to other planets. Unplayable, this is not.

[Alpinesun]

I ran some numbers last night against two finished items. The general finding is that ore at its fixed pricing bot market value of 25q is about four times too high of what it should be and is crippling player market activity and a micro supply chain environment. That didn't include the current insane cost of the schematic to make the final item either. 

 

In a nutshell, it's not allowing players the ability to sell second, third, fourth or finished goods into the market as there is no economic sense to do so. Ore price is king and its killing free market trading. 

 

NQ are using the high price to help dig them out of the recession 0.23 created and its having a crippling effect on everything in the market. 

[Xennial]

1 hour ago, Alpinesun said:

I ran some numbers last night against two finished items. The general finding is that ore at its fixed pricing bot market value of 25q is about four times too high of what it should be and is crippling player market activity and a micro supply chain environment. That didn't include the current insane cost of the schematic to make the final item either. 

 

In a nutshell, it's not allowing players the ability to sell second, third, fourth or finished goods into the market as there is no economic sense to do so. Ore price is king and its killing free market trading. 

 

NQ are using the high price to help dig them out of the recession 0.23 created and its having a crippling effect on everything in the market. 

This all goes back to the fundamentally flawed idea of having bots in the market at all. If ore prices were allowed to nose dive, producers would find more value in producing etc etc etc. They insist bots are needed when all their presence does is cripple the ability for an actual market to develop. Their constant tampering with bots in the market is what has lead to the 'problems' they are trying to correct while still insisting on keeping the problem alive on their end.

[Alpinesun]

2 hours ago, Xennial said:

This all goes back to the fundamentally flawed idea of having bots in the market at all. If ore prices were allowed to nose dive, producers would find more value in producing etc etc etc. They insist bots are needed when all their presence does is cripple the ability for an actual market to develop. Their constant tampering with bots in the market is what has lead to the 'problems' they are trying to correct while still insisting on keeping the problem alive on their end.

100% this. Fixing markets is illegal in real life for a reason. Basically the river is poisoned at source and everyone down stream is either ill or not wanting to drink the water any more.

[Pathalogical Functor]

I suspect the bots are there to maintain some semblance of progression for new players. Aside from the daily login bonus, those bots are the only source of new money in the game. Schematics are a huge money sink, so without money faucets you get currency deflation. Deflation rewards people for hoarding their money instead of spending it, driving down prices even more. This means that a new player would need to mine for even longer before they could afford enough schematics to set up a proper industry.

[Haunty]

Boycott the bots ? It saddens me when precious ore is being removed by bots.

 

Anyways selling pures is hit or miss, it depends on player demand. And I'd train refining talents to at least lvl 4 before doing that, to keep your margins optimal.

[Fra119]

1 minute ago, Pathalogical Functor said:

I suspect the bots are there to maintain some semblance of progression for new players. Aside from the daily login bonus, those bots are the only source of new money in the game. Schematics are a huge money sink, so without money faucets you get currency deflation. Deflation rewards people for hoarding their money instead of spending it, driving down prices even more. This means that a new player would need to mine for even longer before they could afford enough schematics to set up a proper industry.

That's the point of all of this, they don't want a new player to step up and build his industry.

And I would even be fine with it IF ONLY THIS GAME WASNT A BUILDING SANDBOX.

lol 

 

 

[michaelk]

4 minutes ago, Pathalogical Functor said:

I suspect the bots are there to maintain some semblance of progression for new players. Aside from the daily login bonus, those bots are the only source of new money in the game. Schematics are a huge money sink, so without money faucets you get currency deflation. Deflation rewards people for hoarding their money instead of spending it, driving down prices even more. This means that a new player would need to mine for even longer before they could afford enough schematics to set up a proper industry.

Beat me to it! 

 

In other MMOs, all currency ultimately comes from mob drops, NPC missions, and/or selling to vendors. 

 

DU doesn't have a real economy because it only has two ways to "print" money: 

1. Daily Login Money
2. Selling to bots

Thing is...I'm not at all an economics person...and even I know that less currency supply leads to deflation. 

 

So...why at "beta" has NQ not put much thought into how the economy will actually work...? If everything is supposed to be run by players...well, how does money get printed, exactly? 

 

In other words, bots might be permanent because NQ doesn't have any other way to inject fresh currency into the game and probably doesn't want to think about it at this point in "beta". 

[Maxim Kammerer]

15 minutes ago, Alpinesun said:

100% this. Fixing markets is illegal in real life for a reason. Basically the river is poisoned at source and everyone down stream is either ill or not wanting to drink the water any more.

 

Unfortunately, the current economy depends on this poison. The game urgently needs additional mecanics to generate cash. They are announced but nobody knows when they are coming and if they will be suitable to solve the problem. We are talking about NQ after all.

 

It would at least be possible to reduce the problem with the bots if they would generate orders with reasonable prices (depending on supply and demand and with proper balancing between buy and sell orders). However, JC would need to admit that this is beyond him and consult an enconomist. That's very unlikely.

[Pathalogical Functor]

One possible solution to the immediate market problems would be to allow items to be recycled into their raw materials, with some percentage loss. This would make it profitable to buy severely under-priced items, recycle them, and sell them to bots. Of course it doesn't make sense to recycle pure aluminum into bauxite ore, so the bot buy orders would need to be changed to match the most basic outputs of recycling.

[Fra119]

Imho the act of selling to bot is fundamentally wrong the moment resources doesn't respawn.

We keep on acting like this is the usual mmorpg where NPC and resources respawns constantly, thus generating a virtually infinite source of whatever material, this is not the case at all.

Mind that when I say "we" I'm including NQ too.

 

[Mordgier]

1 hour ago, Fra119 said:

Imho the act of selling to bot is fundamentally wrong the moment resources doesn't respawn.

Ok - but how is that all that different from the finite resources getting 'destroyed' when your elements exceed the repair counter?

 

I'm not a fan of the bots, but I don't see how the finite nature of resources matters in this case.

[Bobbie]

.

[Xennial]

4 hours ago, Pathalogical Functor said:

I suspect the bots are there to maintain some semblance of progression for new players. Aside from the daily login bonus, those bots are the only source of new money in the game. Schematics are a huge money sink, so without money faucets you get currency deflation. Deflation rewards people for hoarding their money instead of spending it, driving down prices even more. This means that a new player would need to mine for even longer before they could afford enough schematics to set up a proper industry.

Run the mental scenario where all you get is the 100k/day cash , no bots, and schematic prices where they are at. Initially people would use mining to use their nanocrafter to get off the ground. It would take a player who wants to engage in industry time to work up enough daily log in $ to start buying schematics. Once they do they start producing items not availible to nanocraft. They are forced to price these based on the ore cost they have buying if not mining it. There would be a glut of ore availible for sale due to no bots so the price of ore would plumet. Then the industry guys start making items with the cheap ore for cheap prices so players will actually buy them.

 

Then over time as the supply of industry increases the demand for ore raises prices , which in turn slowly raises finished good prices etc. Eventually the prices are relative to the supply of cash which is ever increasing because aside from the schematic prices and sales tax there is no hole for the money to fall out of the economy. They would also have the option to set the daily welfare to whatever they feel matches their schematic price player progression curve goal.

 

Naturally this would all require a wipe to start off correctly and let natural market forces take root. The bots completely pervert this. Injecting money into a game where you hand cash to every player every day just for logging in is NOT a deflationary concern.

[Deintus]

6 hours ago, Pathalogical Functor said:

I suspect the bots are there to maintain some semblance of progression for new players. Aside from the daily login bonus, those bots are the only source of new money in the game. Schematics are a huge money sink, so without money faucets you get currency deflation. Deflation rewards people for hoarding their money instead of spending it, driving down prices even more. This means that a new player would need to mine for even longer before they could afford enough schematics to set up a proper industry.

This is where the appropriate, easy to find, finished tutorials could give the player a jump start in the direction they want to go. Want to do industry, do several tutorials that covers all industry aspects and come out with enough machines and schematics (no ore) to make a tier 2 product. This could be done for all game jobs/aspects available in the game. (Well, eventually)

 

[Alpinesun]

So this is how broken the market is because of bot pricing. I ran a simple numbers scenario last night on coal. Again its artificial bot price is 25q per litre. If you sold 65l you would make 1625q. 65l also makes 45l of Carbon which would cost around 815-825q to buy off the market. So you can quickly double your output on the refined version of the ore quickly and simply! That should absolutely not be the case. A refined product should be source elements + process cost + transport cost + desired margin. 

 

Bots are killing the market full stop.  With them there is no way the market will ever reach player sustained equilibrium with a true supply and demand balance. Its so short sighted and frustrating. Industry is so pointless unless you want to build things for yourself and your wider organisation but even that's been killed by the 0.23 patch. Sigh.