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[Discussion] DevBlog: Rebalancing the Universe


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1 hour ago, Hiturn said:

I'm sure many of them. Last week, military engines warp drives aggs , pulsors and some high-end parts increased their prices due to massive demand.


I even wrote in the support chat, "who the hell buys 50 territorial units" is obvious that many of them knew.They weren't a bargain either.

They have been playing the bot honeycomb game for months and sadly will now be required as it is the only way to keep up with the massive currency sink that is expected. I had hoped that NQ would either eliminate the bots or cram them into uselessness and decided to make them an integral part of the game not only to sell schemes but to get currency to buy them.

 

High tier ore will reduce its value as demand for it will collapse.ç

 

Mining T1 and selling to bots that's it. Good job NQ.

It seems that we have a privileged group of players that is being pampered to by NQ staff. Again its unfair to the rest of us

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55 minutes ago, kulkija said:

@NQ - Please read

 

Rebalancing The Universe and breaking exploration gameplay before it started.

 

  • How we gonna be able to explore new planets.
  • Finding new planet, first to land there.
  • Only nanografting to establish first colony at that planet?
  • Will there be Markets full of things to buy before first human has landed?? LOL
  • Who will buy our "mass produced affordable goods" if we are only ones on that planet.
  • How we can make expensive indy profitable there if we are only players building first colony??

 

 

Right.  I regret so much now that my built out static cores are not on Alioth.  But on the other hand I did that because game performance is unplayable at the major markets.  It's a painful single digit FPS shuffle to a terminal, sell stuff, grab my stuff and get out.  I did it maybe every few weeks because it sucks.  Now it's required far more often?  I don't' see this helping secondary markets getting going.  Less producers, less inventory, less outlets.  I'm not sure I want to play this game in that state.

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I'm replying kind of late to this discussion. I have read only the first few pages of replies so my reply might include or repeat ideas mentioned in replies before mine.

 

I believe these changes will only hurt the game at this point and especially the starting players, who are vital to the game's sustainability. It would not change much for an older player already possessing enough capital to buy schematics, instead it will launch them further ahead from everyone else. I believe that the economy is not working as it should right now because the resources are not spent in any way. The only ones buying new elements are more or less the starters. We are depending on them to sell our products and make profit, since even the elements of ships lost in pvp return to the market again. Atmospheric pvp/ territory control/ element destruction have to be implemented first. After these are in the game, then you see how the economy moves and only then you can decide on a change like this. Right now the economy simply cannot move as it should.

 

Problems with this idea:

 

1. "Omni" factories that can produce everything will still be made. The only thing that will change is the amount of units required to achieve the same result and that not by much. I have such a factory myself right now and I'm not a member of an organization yet. 

2. If all refined/product/intermediate/complex parts are maintained the only units requiring changes to schematics will be the assembly lines. People will just do that instead. 

3. How will a new player build his/her first ships? Considering you do not have a way of transporting goods from and to the market in order to start by selling and buying. A new player will have to rely on help from other players to get jumpstarted, otherwise it will be a pain and will definitely send players away.

4. It will exaggerate the already existing problem of finding specific low cost items on a nearby market, like specific small lights for example, that not many producers will work on. 

5. It will render many existing factories inoperable making the economy go haywire for a while. 

 

What i would propose instead:

 

Leave industry as is and consider only changes that will make it more fun and engaging instead of tedious. Like total energy management for example. Something that will not require unit to unit micromanagement but general base management. 

 

Instead, you could add a feature like organization talents which will require not only time but also resources from organizations to level. Each organization will be able to choose talents only from a limited amount of categories (mining/industry/military) etc. These talents should give the organization's members tremendous advantages in their respective field making the economy revolve around that. Organizations will need each other and solo players will be buying from these organizations because of the price efficiency these orgs will have making the market come to life. For example a starting player would still be able to craft something on their own but will never be able to match the price of an optimized organization factory made for said item.

 

A "Quality" factor could be introduced to elements. For example let's say an engine was produced from one of the best industry organization factories. This engine could have let's say a quality of 120% making it 20% more efficient and powerful than normal low quality engines. The starting/average player would still go for the low cost/ low quality engine whereas the savvy player will definitely use the market to buy one of these.

 

Allowing construct blueprint modification would work great along with this. Or adding this functionality to the repair unit. For example changing all space engine L on a blueprint with HQ space engine L without having to change them on a deployed construct. Then on deploy the construct would deploy exactly the same with the only difference being that the engines are of a different quality. This would also be useful for the high tier elements already planned to be introduced to the game. Replacing all elements on existing constructs manually would be a pain, considering how hard it is to place an element close to another at correct orientation without it going red with all the small bugs going on. 

 

Organization alliances could be introduced. Which would be an alliance of a limited number of organizations working together towards a common goal. It would be like forming a small nation. Of course population number restrictions will have to be introduced to organizations or mega orgs that will dominate the server will rise.

 

 

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this is going to confer another massive advantage to the big orgs that have been running their giga factories non stop.  You're making it impossible for single players and small orgs to progress.  If it becomes so tedious to do anything alone, I'll just move on to another game.  That will be 4 paying accounts gone. 

 

A change like this requires a wipe or you remove any semblance of parity from the game.  warp beacons are now completely out of reach for small orgs.  

Without a wipe, the players/orgs with billions of quanta already will not even notice these changes while the average single player and small org will be hamstrung.  I'm not in favor of this change and will probably stop playing if it goes the way I think it will.  

I feel like the first thing you should try is to remove the market bots and see what happens to the economy naturally...  then make adjustments.  This kind of wholesale change to the way the game works without wiping will just give the dominant orgs even more advantage. 

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Unfortunately the devs wish to insist this is "beta" when the reality of things is we are still a very early alpha. 

 

The economy has been a joke from day 1 of their "beta" launch and many players and orgs have amassed hundreds of millions of credits and others already many billions. If this new direction was paramount for balance, then it should be part of a system wide financial wipe, or a "soft reset" of the entire game, while allowing players to keep the skill they have unlocked. 

 

When you introduce or completely change how any core system works, trying to patch it together with the current way things have been up till this point only benefits those who have amassed great fortunes. 

 

That said, you once again inflate the economy with set pricing for schematics as they are only obtained from the "bot market" which doesn't make sense. Why would any player or org be required to buy the same exact schematic when it shouldn't be more than copy/pasta program that gets uploaded into each factory with said schematic. Is the DU system suddenly laden with "dumb dumb" society that requires a new schematic for each and every single factory they build?

 

What was the point in building these factory units if they lock out the user and the key to unlocking each factory unit is to buy the exact same plan multiple times?  It's honestly mind boggling how stupid and badly thought out this new system is. Once again, it feels like devs are over complicating things to the point that you are adding more pieces to a puzzle and creating more and more major imbalance within the economy, when you should be doing a full wipe with any major game changing core mechanic of this magnitude. 

 

I really want to see DU become a great and fun game, but with the devs continued decisions to make sweeping changes and then refuse to wipe will only showcase a badly broken system that will never balance itself out while turning away many orgs who simply will not go through the process of buying hundreds or even thousands of the same schematic just to make their factory setups viable again. 

 

Real shame to see so much added confusion and frustration added in before QOL features, such as a good 2D interactive planner that would alleviate the need to physically go to every single factory unit and then open > load schematic x 100 ~ 1000's of times. No thank you. Over complicated thinking = over complicated major system changes = unable to look at how major an impact this will be seen and taken negatively by the community. 

 

 

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Not liking the new changes coming up and thought I'll give my 0.02 cents worth. Been away from DU for sometime now and have an industry half finished, nothing major though now I'm not sure where to go given the changes that are coming in for both industry and skills. 

 

Industry changes:

 

How is this going to force specialisation except really only make it difficult for new players and smaller factories. The big timers with their mega factories that already mass produce just about anything everything will be able to flourish by selling to the less fortunate. Really only way around it is to do a wipe and force everyone to the same rules.

 

This could have easily been avoided by enforcing power management on everyone's factories. This is a missing feature and it would not only encourage specialisation, but can be applied to existing factories by turning off what can't be powered, and well if they are rich enough they can afford to buy the power. Those of us soloists and smaller or newer players can still be able to create our small factories to play the game, and when it comes to doing commerce and making in game money then the markets will play a big role as no solo player could afford to create a mega factory with simple power management mechanics. Heck you could do away with the limit on links with containers and machines too as power management would limit what you can do too.

 

Skill barrier/wall changes:

 

This I hate, one thing I hated in eve and the one thing I loved about DU skills was that you can do anything just like in RL, but you wont' be good at it unless you skill up. Why was this such a bad thing? Why is it necessary now to lock industry and weapons behind skill walls. This is a horrible idea!

 

Not to mention that all the skills we've invested in are now probably not aligned to what we've been doing. I bet we all have a lot of wasted skills in areas that could have been better spent on this skills barriers now.


On the plus side, cyberpunk will be out this week and maybe I should jump on that hype train instead, maybe by the time I've finished with that NQ will do a full wipe and remove this skill barrier idea.

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I suggest also introducing following concepts to the game:

 

- right to walk (sold by bots only, not granted during first login)

- right to breath (until bought, you die of suffocation every 57s losing your inventory)

- right to drive

  - hover vehicles

  - atmospheric ships

  - VTOL ships

  - high-atmo ships

 - space ships

 - interplanetary travel ships

 - AGG ships

 - warp drive ships (should cost at leat 1bn)

- right to mine

 - extra money for mining anywhere but Sanctuary

 - MORE extra money for tier2+

 - tier5 should cost 1bn per ore per liter

 - also make costs retrospective, e.g. anyone who mined ore in the past should pay for the ore mined otherwise they are banned from mining

 

Also, I think, having a bot-sold schematic to log-inis the right way to go. Obviously, schematics are for one use, so think twice if you want to go for a pee-pee. Also, premium schematics for logging in in the place you logged off, also PLATINUM TIER logging in with inventory intact.

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On 12/7/2020 at 3:16 PM, Olmeca_Gold said:

PROBLEM 1) You are putting yourselves in quite a position with treating the game as a beta and non-beta whenever it works. On one hand, with the promise of keeping our wealth into the release, we're expected to treat the game as it's an actual launch to compete with other players and organizations. But then there is no support, mechanics can change dramatically, etc. You're also putting at least a 6-months gap between those who could exploit the unbalanced mechanics early and accumulate wealth, and those who couldn't.

 

SOLUTION: I don't really have a solution to this. Perhaps the best way to operate right now is to announce a full wipe at the end of beta if you can financially handle it.

I think this game NEEDS a wipe on launch - honestly. 

 

The people (myself included) who paid for early access have gotten plenty of value from this; hours of enjoyment, opportunity to influence development, knowledge of good tactics, and so on - plenty of benefit over any late comers.

 

I think we should definitely retain blueprints for everything we have created - because these are not simply a matter of time/gameplay to recreate.


At most, we could have a small quanta boost - so we can get started without having to do the very first initial grind to get going.  This will place us as the first contributors to the market, for the late comers to benefit from.

 

Because of the knowledge we have, the slight boost in quanta, and our blueprints, we will be the seed that kicks the market into gear for late comers (if you're worried about this WRT a wipe).

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ALSO..

 

From the description of the change it seems like the schematic container will allow us to load multiple schematics into one machine - does this also mean we will be able to control industry unit schematic selection from lua? 

 

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Aaron Cutchin comment from youtube:

"Specialization is for insects. A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly." - Robert A. Heinlein

 

Maybe use this on loading screen? :D

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Amendment to lore 

RRRingggg – My phone wakes me up 

Kulkija speaking” 

Hi Aphelia here” 

Kulkija: “Hi wow nice to hear..” 

Aphelia : “Listen man – We have decided that you are too small player to fill the needs of our glorious markets economy” 

Kulkija: “hmmphh!” 

Aphelia : “Since you are using our industrial units, we will disable them remotely in a couple of days”
“You may by a 
license to use them from us, but as a solo player you won't be able to afford it” 

Kulkija: “Whaaat..” 

Aphelia: “Why don’t you go to do something else,, whatever, just GTFO from our industrial sandbox” 

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6 hours ago, kulkija said:

This was my dream too.

It were also vision vich were sold to us at Kickstarter.

One must keep Promises which are made at Kickstarter. Or else whole system fails. 

I dreamed of building Atlantis, a floating self-contained industrial city that I could take out to the stars and explore with.  Alas, that wasn't JC's vision so they killed the ability to have industry on dynamic cores...  The original timeline back in early 2018, when I joined, had an infinite universe, called Galaxy, scheduled for now.  That has been pushed back to "post release", and the current approach of doing a hybrid procedural/manual planet generation means it will never be infinite - instead they will need to release a planet or a few planets at a time.  Slap two.  

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I dont see how a wipe will solve anything other then making everyone lose all their xp/time invested.

 

Sure resources would be lost, but 1 person will always be out performed by 10 that will be out performed by 100. So in effect no change to the economy in the long term.

Only difference is we have to spend even more time getting xp.

 

 

 

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The end of DU as we know it is near. Brace yourselves for impact!

 

Am I disappointed because I just spent 10 to 12 days building and digging my L core Factory. Yes! But this is just a game after all. Spending time here or spending time watching movies is just a matter of perspective and preference.

du-announcement.png

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22 minutes ago, BrownSteering said:

The end of DU as we know it is near. Brace yourselves for impact!

 

Am I disappointed because I just spent 10 to 12 days building and digging my L core Factory. Yes! But this is just a game after all. Spending time here or spending time watching movies is just a matter of perspective and preference.

du-announcement.png

Gutted.

I guess it was good whilst it lasted and it kept me happy, for a couple of months at least.

So long Dual Universe....

 

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"God forbid anyone from making progress without having to go through some sort of paywall"

 

So here's the thing, me and the guys are a small org that go on trips, mine everything we need and manufacture our own items

We didn't hang around the market areas nor buy any essentials cause honestly trading doesn't concern us.

So why NQ out of the blue is forcing us to be traders in order to do basic industry stuff?

You want a living , breathing economy like EVE but you have to understand that unlike that game our income sources are quite limited.

There are no PVE related missions/elements so our only gateway to make quanta is essentially through the market.

Basically you are forcing a playstyle on us that we don't really want to follow here...

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so what if these elements have?
I have them too.
I play I built the steak myself. I built the factories myself.
I myself have flown in space in pursuit of Lithium and other rare ores.
After you equalize the amount of money in your account, you level the chances of all players.

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8 minutes ago, Armedwithwings said:

So why NQ out of the blue is forcing us to be traders in order to do basic industry stuff?

 

Because mega factories, like the one I solo built on a L space core, are consuming too many of their infrastructure dollars.  So instead of figuring out a way to optimize their code, or rewrite the CPU consuming portions with a better algorithm, they are slapping Schematics on us to slow us down and, at least temporarily, shutdown large portions of our factories to relieve the CPU load they are causing.  This is the second time they have done this... their attempt at solving the problem via the large batch sizes was their first effort.  Net result:  I have a transfer unit for a rare item that will engage once every 8 days to move a batch of that product.  A few months after they did that hack, the problem is back again.  As it will be a few months down the road if they manage to keep their player  base once we have paid the schematic cost.

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