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[Discussion] DevBlog: Rebalancing the Universe


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3 hours ago, OrionSteed said:

I've been lurking for awhile, but felt the urge to make an account based off this.   I want to give my 2 cents with a  lot of posts in here -

 

Content.  I literally started 5 days ago.   It has not been easy to figure everything out (but that's ok).  I'm still learning every day. I happened to be watching some YouTube vid's today on industry, because it interests me.  There should be an end game to mining by producing things, and it should happen fairly early imo.  

 

Really super quick, something as a "5 day old" (LOL) I've been going through..learned how to use my scanner and mine, only to find out it's a terrible pain hauling all the stuff up for sale to the market I'm near...so, researching how to combat that so I can haul more to market...or hauling to my base to use myself.  This is a small example of what a 5 day old goes through, using the logic chain.  I'll figure it out.

 

Back on topic - Looking through some recipes, I noticed they require a S factory.  Fine.  If you take this away, this will limit my ability to build something that I'm VERY much looking forward to (a ship) on my own.  Go to the markets?  Ok.   Using the markets in my limited experience has been not fun.  Only because there's very little there, they're cumbersome to look through and inventory space is always on my mind (and a problem).  I get what you're trying to do, and it's smart on paper, but I'm not sure it's going to work out in real life.  You WANT people to build and create things, that is the ARCHITECTURE of your game.  I'm not sure mining for 3+ months (total estimate in my head) to get ahead is fun.  I don't want to mine every day for several months and have it the only thing I can do.  I know we're in Beta but still.  I feel like at this point, there needs to be more work on content.  I bought a 2 month sub.  If I don't feel like I'm getting ahead, and BUILDING things (the draw of the game for me) and turn into some corp mine slave, I will not resub.  It's really that simple for me.

 

I will go down this path you've created to see where it leads, but I promise I will not, and am not interested in only mining.

I find thats an awesome statement, with some very constructive criticism. Like from here +1

But it seems you havnt understood yet what the course of the game was intentionally was.

It was allways intended that people are not needed to go mining, but its just one of many sources to make money.
This patch helps to boost the Trading, so that people trade more and mine less.
In my over 3 years with allmost 4000 hours of playing DU, the beta had the worst experience so far, because everyone was forced to go mining.
The markets are not used much rn, because trading ores give the best profit.
Not many people were trading Elements or Honeycomb, because Ore gave the most money and everyone had theyr own industry to produce anything on theyr own within a month or two.
With this patch you will see allmost empty markets at first, because everyone will buy anything they can, befor the prizes will rise to never seen hights.
So this is your chance to make a lot of Quanta you will need after the patch. Not for buying ore, but for buying Elements others produce.
After the patch the markets will fill again with very high prizes at first, but then the market will regulate itself to a very low prize again for Elements for a short time until they are all sold and even big orgs have sold anything from theyr storage to get any quanta they can.
Even components will get a value on the markets, because not everyone will be able to produce final products.
Then it depends on your trading skills, how many money you can get out of it by being active and fast on the markets.
This patch helps to balance the economy without a wipe.
Its far from done, and we will see even more so called "nerfs"... but as i see it as an economist in reallife, that this patch was really needed to make trading more interresting and mining less neccessarry.
Quanta gets much more viable and solo megafactorys within a month without making any profit out of it gets busted.
If you need any trading tips, to get rich, way better than with mining or as an industrialist, just PM me ^^

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2 hours ago, BiGEdge said:


This patch helps to boost the Trading, so that people trade more and mine less.
 

Trade what? The way I see it that many players... I mean majority of players, will be forced to sell ore to pay for things others make.

What other thing could they possibly do to generate income.

Sure, there will be some mid tier orgs that will only make a few things but since we know now that industry will cost many times the final product's value to create, they will obviously need MANY TIMES more customers to generate profits.

Where will those vast numbers of customers suddenly get their money from? Mining T5?  Oh wait, that's all gone.
Mining T4? Nope.. T3... Only if they can get out of the safe zone..

Oh wait, for that they need to build or buy a ship capable of defending themselves or be warp capable.
So now they have to afford to be able to buy a ship in the first place...

How are they going to do that? 

MINING MINING MINING...

4phh1l.jpg

 

The Civilization just got that much further away.
People were already quitting because mining was becoming a boring, painful  task suited only to those of certain mindsets... or substance habits ?...  And now they are magnifying the least attractive aspect of their game...

Good luck with that.

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So for a new player starting out they will need to buy everything instead of making like me so I could buy parts I didn't want to setup for at first now they will need to buy everything if I can't setup a machines to make one warp drive as an example this will break the game for my style and am sorry I paid for a year. I understand where some people will like this change but I drive Semi and can't login everyday to get the 100k so what am I supposed to do wait until I have enough money from the limited times to login? I liked the fact I could login when I could and set stuff up for something I wanted while I mined ore. Now my only thing I can do will be mining if that truly happens I am sorry I got two tiles on Alioth. I will do what I can and see what happens but if I read it right and I HAVE to buy everything I need even refiners then I hope Elite's new update is as good as it sounds.

Edited by ToobsTube
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im not going to go into great deal on this but i do hope with such a detrimental change to the market system you are considering some kind of wipe.  1 small example, this game didnt just release a couple of months ago.  you have people/groups who have been massing a small fortune on resources and items and cash flow for over a year now.  CEO guy, you seem like a smart chap.  ask youself, how in the heck does a group of 300 playing for say 90 days, compete with a group of 100 who have mastered the game we have been playing thus far, mined out 50% of the mega nodes in the universe, and are sitting on stock piles.  it would take years for the economy to balance.

 

you said something about having luxury, high end stuff.  Ok, so again you seem like a smart guy.  This is first a foremost a game.  Second its a PVP game.  what ever is the most effective will become the in game meta.  right now a tiny ship can chase down a large ship and blast it to pieces, but next your talking about massive ships being king.  i wish you luck with balancing the pvp end of things.  me personally i think everything needs to be manually aimed and fired..  periscope doesnt show you a picture of a ship it shows you the ship and you have to use skill to hit it.  Smaller ships dont have turrets they have lots of dumb fire weapons.  again, pilot skills and aim skills make the game.

ores.

dont really know how to touch on this subject except that 2kl of iron makes around 1000 screws.  Those are some really big screws.  Territory scanners, way way way to fast, way too accurate, way too cheap.  you know how much a survey costs?  There is a reason behind wildcatting.  Finite resources means a finite game.  autominers is NOT the answer.  Auto anything is not an answer.  subsurface wipe/respawn is a viable answer.

 

You got a great game going here.  Loads of potential.  Please do not follow the path that so many other game companies have followed and create a burning building when you have the talents to build the garden of eden.

 

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Hi first to say, its a nice Game thx for realizing this.

I played eve for like a decade and see u doing the same mistakes like they did with band of brothers advantages or the "captains quarters" decision  which reduced the playerbase to half of it.

Mining is the worst part of du, its ugly boring laggy and full of errors "internal server error" and waiting for " computing data", if u force ppl to do much more mining to get to the funpart of the game, theyll quit.

The markets are a broken fragment in comparison to the eve markets, missing a lot of functions that are already not there, why do u wonder the players dont go there? The lag is killing ships and ppl, dispensers r good for scammers, it isnt even halfway usable crap and u say we need more ppl at the markets. Thats unbelievable.

like someone mentioned earlier, ill get payed for work, not willing to pay for it. 

Reducing Container Range to get mining harder will be the next dumb decision...

if its that way? good luck

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Alright, a few things:

There is little content in this game, even less for new players. You new take another one away.


-exploring, available for everyone, does not give progress.

-mining, open for everybody, although far more rewarding if you know what you are doing, especially scanning, far planets and soon multiple dyn core container hubs to "chain" the ore to the surface. You are kind of killing casual mining done by new players.

-industry, currently something a player can start right after the tutorial, and while it takes time to make money, you may at least save money. You block this for new players.

-pvp, how long would it take a newish player to go from a base on alioth and an S core hauler until he wins his first skirmish? 40h, 200h? I have no idea.

-traveling merchant, playing markets, needs initial money and therefore useless for new players.

 

Instead of introducing something that is actually fun, you add more tedium and kill new player experience.

 

New players already have a hard time, as plenty of game mechanics that make the game a LOT easier are not learnable by just paying attention and playing.

 

-Market UI is a convoluted mess, most new players (watch a noob stream) just farm their nanopack full of ore, bring it to the market and sell hematite for 6q/l.

-Also nice is waiting for your nanocrafter to finish something and being unable to mine as you dont have inventory (just give the STU some inventory space, no way to abuse that for anything. Bonus points for automatically making it linked container on initial placement).

-New players actually think there is a core limit and may take stuff apart to be able to make something else. BTW, why do you make it look like there is a core limit?

 

There would be less need for more (buggy) tutorials if the less was more intuitive, less contradicting and didn’t hide a lot of information for no reason.
 

Market bots

 

There is no issue with bots buying a variety of item at bad prices. The issue is that if you (or another beta key character of yours) skills hema/coal/steel/steel honeycomb making to five, you can buy hema and coal for 37 and 27 from players and make 112 quanta for every 100 quanta you spent (more if you buy lower). Some few players utilize this to make large amounts of money. I would guess about 30% of all hematite dug out is currently deleted that way every day.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BL2GJSVaGz0cdTzy-bgDbtlqBBTXCjH5YTqR0IiQciY/edit?usp=sharing

This is not a way to "inject money into the economy", this is a way to delete massive amount of ore that could be turned into ships, bases and other things at lower price. It just favours players who went a very boring way, helped by multiple accounts, to make large amounts of money while harming the other players. 

When players want to talk about market bots, the do not mean a way to, if at a small loss, buy/sell things that no players wants at that market at that time, they mean the 10 million litres of ore being deleted every day. Every time a dev is asked about this, including today, it seems they are irritated people dislike them. Unless one of them says "we are aware that multiple million litres hematite each day are sold to bots by a low amount of individuals" I continue to believe the devs are unaware of the scale of the issue.

Schematics

Mixed feeling, I, like many others here, think at least t1 stuff, maybe just M assembler and smaller, should be free of schematics or those schematics should be so cheap you already save money if you only make 5 adjustors. Otherwise, see above, you just gatekeep a feature in a game that already doesn’t have a lot of things to do.

What I dislike more than the cost, is that it will add a lot of tedium again. It already takes quite long to set up industry. 

-place them
-link them (which quickly leads to multi-second freezes. Game leaves full screen mode if you hit escape)

-for every single unit:
     -engage unit and select wanted item

             -if transfer unit, manually enter name of item, as "only show doable" requires a far higher minimum amount than batch size

     -select mode/amount

     NEW click on schematic, check inventory for schematic item, find the correct one, move to slot, confirm

     -press start
connect output container to whatever needs the stuff


This is not "hard" as in "challenging", this is "hard" as in "tedious and boring". The former you want in a game, the latter you do not.

Imagine you had to fly a ship like that! Activate every single engine, manually type in "main thrust". Check brake fluid on every brake. Set "left/right/up/down/forward/back" on every single adjustor. Set wings to lift. Select keybind for every landing gear. Set altitude for hovers and boosters. Manually link all elements to cockpit. Place relays if number exceeds 10.
You get the idea? This is not fun. There is not even a way to be good or bad at it, there is no way to fail or be proud if you got it done. What sounds silly for making a ship is reality for industry though.

Information policy

Not posting the info of the stream in writing is just rude. Writing is easier to auto translate. People would do it for free if supported. Written is easier to quote or to check. Text can be read half and continued later. Written is easier to understand for us foreigners, especially if accents are involved.

Any info officially given is super vague and only explains intentions without any details. Some random factory will cost 150B, why even give us the number if we do not know the factory? Is the schematic an actual inventory item? You already have the UI, why not show it? Why mix actually developed and set stuff like schematics with talk about t5 engines which are months away? The game has a lot of problems regarding normal casual gameplay. People usually don’t start the game as part of a team, they start as a solo player, stay if they have fun and maybe join an org if they meet nice players and want to tackle end game goals. You keep on ignoring normal everyday questions and issues and talk about large scale things that do not affect dirty casuals.
 

The info you dropped today would have been pure gold in the hands of players who get it early and can be sure about it. This kind of insider info must kept secret and made open public for all players at the same time, well ahead of the actual changes. Sharing it with a few random players is just rude. The bad thing the leaks showed was not the info leaked, it was the fact that you share info like this with some select players who can use if for massive profit.


Sidenote while you are reading this wall anyway

 

We get it, you can make things really pretty in this game. Very round, lots of smooth tool, look at these shapes and colours. It would be nice if people with a bit more interest in physic or engineering games had something usefull to do. Currently every ship is just a list of parts, placement does not matter above a very low skill floor. It would also be nice if you decided to ever fix the element number bug and a large (winged) ship flying at 500 kilometers per hour would be able to move more than 200 kilometers within an hour.

Please remember, it is absolutely right that players often do not know the best solution for a problem, but if many people say there is a problem, there is likely a problem.

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12 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

Basically all they have done is added a cost multiplier to the factory units by way of proxy so as to avoid having to wipe mega org mega factories.

They done generaly soft wipe (to "deal" with their ealier mistakes) and put price on shoulders of average Joe, simulteneously making big/rich even bigger/richer in short time period.

 

Reminds me of something.

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It's clear that most of the players who have felt compelled to post so passionately about this issue are single players and those who are parts of small orgs, and interesting that theres been very little from players in large orgs, or those who have played for a long time (and have likely benefitted from abundant T2+ ores )except to say they welcome this move.   We are  passionate about this game, we LOVE this game.

The neccessary evil of mining currently has pay-off in that the more time you invest, the more able you are to open up new possibilities through production.  Ive literally been playing this game for 5+ hours a day for 2 months and have only just got to a point where I have amassed enough industry to feel as though I am on the verge of breaking through into a sustainble strategy where I can make enough stuff to move my gaming experience onto the next level and leave the safe zone.  Im by no means comparable to large factories, but I am able to manufacture basic stuff to either sell or use. 

But  soon I will have to buy everything from the markets - WITH WHAT EXACTLY? EARNED HOW EXACTLY?

 

There seems to be absolutely no percpetion from NQ what it is ACTUALLY like for a new player to get to grips with the game. Even learning to fly your precious ship, re-entering the atmosphere without destroying it takes at least 15+ goes, thank god I was able to repair it, otherwise I wouldve run out of money almost immediately, or been doomed to life harvesting rocks on Sanctuary.  If the iterative damage of elements had been active when I was learning to fly, I wouldve stopped playing forver when my money ran out.  This latest proposal is, again, going to disporoportionately penalise inexperienced new players, and those who dont want to be part of an org, and they will be almost immediately turned off once they realise how utterly distant the fun parts of the game will be, whilst the already established, weathy players will be also affected, they will still be able to have fun and play the game as NQ intends. Unlike the rest of us impoverished troglodytes who will be forced into a life of subterranian servitude, or the better option of not renewing our subs.

I play this game because of the possibilities it presents and the idea sold to me through the marketing; I want to create, build and explore and escape the drudgery of COVID19, not pay for virtual drudgery.

 

This kind of basic inconsideration for newbie players and the chalenges they face is further compounded by this latest move - its almost like NQ dont WANT new players in their game.

 

NQ- READ THE ROOM.

(assuming you actually do read these forums)

 

EDIT:  Today, after this announcement,  the cheapest warp drive available is Q3,800,000 - so thats 38 daily logins, assuming you do nothing else. GREAT.

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Currently I could not build element cheaper than they were on the market because I don't have the crafting skills required, now I won't be able to build the things that are not on the market and won't be able to afford the parts that are on the market (warp engines just had a 400% increase in price from the announcement, I would see that doubling once the changes are actually implemented, and is is the same story even across essential elements(containers for example)).

 

This will by intent centralise production exclusively to those who already have the money on hand to buy the required schematics on release and have the specialised manpower already. the result of this will be significant price of production increases and across the board scarcity for elements meaning my game loop of ship production and sale is dead without becoming a miner slave for an org so I can take the money they offer me for my now unusable resources to save what I can to eventually be able to produce again, or buy back off that org taking by resources at a mark up.

 

that isn't a game, that is a job... really bordering on voluntary slavery with extra steps.

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53 minutes ago, JoeKing said:

It clear that most of the players who have felt compelled to post so passionately about this issue are single players and those who are parts of small orgs, and interesting that theres been very little from players in large orgs, or those who have played for a long time (and have likely benefitted from abundant T2+ ores )except to say they welcome this move.  

Its partialy true.

 

Because you will rarely see any serious presence from large orgs on forums on most issues -- they hanging out in various Discord "clubs". So its not like everyone super-happy even in large orgs, you just have very little chances to hear it there. 

 

On other hand, yes, obviously its opportunity for larger enitites (or super-rich solo/semi solo minority) to consolidate their hold on economy. For orgs its also more recruits herded in by nessesity of JC's kick in backside.

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After writing an incredibly long wall of text pointing out poor priorities and the fact they're taking away from next to nothing without offering anything new to enjoy, I came to a much shorter point...

 

Even tho I don't believe it will work out in the first place, there's a slight hope and I can at least see myself imagine it, well, could lead to that new progression JC was talking about. So let's assume all the good things and pretend we're not being screwed over 40% on our way to where those are that alledgedly are the cause to this change.

 

After all my internal rage one thing remains that infuriates me every time I think about it: we have to buy that stuff. We can not build it. What do I get from that? Did NQ lose their faith in their own ability to make a sandbox and now reverts to imposing a hard border by linking it to money alone?

 

Gone are the dreams of entering a world, building a space capable ship and launching off into the unknown to create your own self-sufficient civilization. You can't mine money - you can't grow it on trees - you can't find lockboxes filled with it in an asteroid belt. You're 100% dependent on trade and an NPC that got it all. This sucks.

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My personal opinion

 

so im open mostly for changes and upcomming stuff, the deep btw far coming stuff for the industries is good, a wipe how some want is fully not recommented. Im pure against a wipe. @NQ you have to bring realy fast the auto miners that generate outa empty areas ore, becouse rare some t4 and t5 is curenntly extrem to rar.
 

but make the restrictions to the autominer units heavy, like, amount depent on skill per planet and one per sektor. extra they need to be powered by an cunsumable fuel.

please make the industry shematics not to expenciv for newcommer and @NQ pls pring the new idustry out with the energy system, becouse the people dont want to remanage there hole factory X times in a short time, currently i know alot of player are gone, if its to hard to restart, they will newer come back

Sry for my bad english

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4 hours ago, Onykage said:

1 small example, this game didnt just release a couple of months ago.  you have people/groups who have been massing a small fortune on resources and items and cash flow for over a year now. 

 

Actually no.  The game was completely wiped one week before beta started, including talents and money.

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8 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

They better give me my 2 million skill points back if they do. 

Linked range will be nerfed. A lot. Like 350m with lvl5 a lot. Seems like NQ wants to alienate even more players by making mining more tedious

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Why not make it easy (like it is) for all T0/T1 components and ores. Then the new and/or solo players still have a part to enjoy the game.

And make new better components T2+ that need the new industry. It will be a bit ballancing between how much better it need to be but in the end more people will be able to play the game.

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Quote

Having the schematic item in the Industry Unit schematic bank is needed to run a particular schematic, so you will need several instances of the same schematic item if you want to produce the same item on several Industry Units at the same time. Those schematic items are sold by bots on markets, and they are much more expensive than the Industry Unit they run on. Each factory needs a schematic associated with it. This is why you need to buy several of them if you want to run production on several lines simultaneously.

seems that ill quit the game then... depends on the cost for these shematics..

 

I was so glad to produce everything by myself and now you will destroy that? oO

 

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i WOULD use the Markets but NQ lets people keep their shitty XS cores all over the place. Industry was the only thing keep my small org afloat, curious to see what happens to us. 

Edit: how do players get schematics? can we make them? or do bots sell them? if bots sell them i don't think i'll be stickin around. You had me JC, you fucking had me by the balls with this game! Shame. :(

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2 hours ago, vertex said:

Gone are the dreams of entering a world, building a space capable ship and launching off into the unknown to create your own self-sufficient civilization. You can't mine money - you can't grow it on trees - you can't find lockboxes filled with it in an asteroid belt. You're 100% dependent on trade and an NPC that got it all. This sucks.

This was my dream too.

It were also vision vich were sold to us at Kickstarter.

One must keep Promises which are made at Kickstarter. Or else whole system fails. 

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I wonder how many large organizations have had insider info about these changes , so they could prepare for them.

 

I did not, so probably i am going to be forced to shut down most of my factory , and go mine ( which i hate with passion ) to get more money to buy schematics.

 

OH wait, mining going to be made even more boring and tedious.

 

Have you saved enough funds to keep developing the game, because it doesnt look good

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Umibozu said:

I wonder how many large organizations have had insider info about these changes , so they could prepare for them.

 

I did not, so probably i am going to be forced to shut down most of my factory , and go mine ( which i hate with passion ) to get more money to buy schematics.

 

OH wait, mining going to be made even more boring and tedious.

 

Have you saved enough funds to keep developing the game, because it doesnt look good

 

 

I'm sure many of them. Last week, military engines warp drives aggs , pulsors and some high-end parts increased their prices due to massive demand.


I even wrote in the support chat, "who the hell buys 50 territorial units" is obvious that many of them knew.They weren't a bargain either.

They have been playing the bot honeycomb game for months and sadly will now be required as it is the only way to keep up with the massive currency sink that is expected. I had hoped that NQ would either eliminate the bots or cram them into uselessness and decided to make them an integral part of the game not only to sell schemes but to get currency to buy them.

 

High tier ore will reduce its value as demand for it will collapse.ç

 

Mining T1 and selling to bots that's it. Good job NQ.

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@NQ - Please read

 

Rebalancing The Universe and breaking exploration gameplay before it started.

 

  • How we gonna be able to explore new planets.
  • Finding new planet, first to land there.
  • Only nanografting to establish first colony at that planet?
  • Will there be Markets full of things to buy before first human has landed?? LOL
  • Who will buy our "mass produced affordable goods" if we are only ones on that planet.
  • How we can make expensive indy profitable there if we are only players building first colony??

 

 

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