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[Discussion] DevBlog: Rebalancing the Universe


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4 minutes ago, Captain Hills said:

 

I'm not sure if a wipe would keep me playing, be careful with such decisions.

The Idea to limit factories and attract the market is basically okey, but not via the schematics because it will solve the issue only for the moment and kill lonely wolfs and smaller orgs.

If the game is a sandbox then a wipe probably isn't needed but this game has a PvP focus and a wipe at official launch is the only way to properly level the field (and yes I would suffer a big loss in a wipe).  Just because the British invented modern football it doesn't mean they get to start with  a 2 goal lead in all international competitions (no matter how bad they need it).

 

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I've been lurking for awhile, but felt the urge to make an account based off this.   I want to give my 2 cents with a  lot of posts in here -

 

Content.  I literally started 5 days ago.   It has not been easy to figure everything out (but that's ok).  I'm still learning every day. I happened to be watching some YouTube vid's today on industry, because it interests me.  There should be an end game to mining by producing things, and it should happen fairly early imo.  

 

Really super quick, something as a "5 day old" (LOL) I've been going through..learned how to use my scanner and mine, only to find out it's a terrible pain hauling all the stuff up for sale to the market I'm near...so, researching how to combat that so I can haul more to market...or hauling to my base to use myself.  This is a small example of what a 5 day old goes through, using the logic chain.  I'll figure it out.

 

Back on topic - Looking through some recipes, I noticed they require a S factory.  Fine.  If you take this away, this will limit my ability to build something that I'm VERY much looking forward to (a ship) on my own.  Go to the markets?  Ok.   Using the markets in my limited experience has been not fun.  Only because there's very little there, they're cumbersome to look through and inventory space is always on my mind (and a problem).  I get what you're trying to do, and it's smart on paper, but I'm not sure it's going to work out in real life.  You WANT people to build and create things, that is the ARCHITECTURE of your game.  I'm not sure mining for 3+ months (total estimate in my head) to get ahead is fun.  I don't want to mine every day for several months and have it the only thing I can do.  I know we're in Beta but still.  I feel like at this point, there needs to be more work on content.  I bought a 2 month sub.  If I don't feel like I'm getting ahead, and BUILDING things (the draw of the game for me) and turn into some corp mine slave, I will not resub.  It's really that simple for me.

 

I will go down this path you've created to see where it leads, but I promise I will not, and am not interested in only mining.

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So, you want to copy EVE Online and move your industry to a schematic production model, fine. A couple of salient points.

 

1/ EVE has a massive missioning system that gives pilots a wide array of possible paths to take, DU has mining ore and building a small factory set up....... cool (so lets remove 50% of that, players have far to much too do)

 

2/ EVE has a vast array of ships and items produced by players and corps available from go, DU has flying coffins built with a bent nail with a rubber chicken for a hammer...... cool

 

DU is not ready for a schematic based production system, it has many systemic issues to solve first. Don't get me wrong, i am enjoying it atm but, but. Your about to destroy a months work and make my small factory set up worthless and give everything to the massive cash grab groups who are only going to dominate more. Not sure i'll be playing in the medium term, there's very little player engagement as it is and your about to remove 75% of that for most players.

 

Good Luck

 

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Lets incentivise players to use the markets...which they avoid like the plague due to res and lag issues....Disconnects, which will now cause crashes, which will require new components to repair ships after 3-4 times....

 

Players avoid markets due to the issues those markets create....Ill continue to purchase most of what I use, however, will NEVER unless there is absolutely no other way, use a market! I always try to purchase from other org members first. 

 

As to the major corps being up and running again in weeks? This remains to be seen...JC did state that his estimate of the cost to ONE megafactory he has personal knowledge of would cost in the range of 150 BILLION for the schematics....I could be very wrong...but I do not believe even the largest of corps at this time have that kind of liquid assets. 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, SneakySnake said:

Why can't we use a L weapons with M cores in 0.23 update? M cores are large enough. Now all players will only use L cores in PvP because of this. I'm disappointed..

It's amazing how NQ thinks that tying the weapon size to the core size (as JC put it).. That will not solve anything.

 

All it will do is XS size cubes will be built using L cores so that L size weapons can be used.

A good number of "PVPers" is just interested in shooting other players who will not put up a fight anyway "I'm a pirate rawr, I attack haulers" and so their cross section is meaningless. Also if they see their target vector in on them they often just run away..

 

 

  

17 minutes ago, Gilgarmesh said:

So, you want to copy EVE Online and move your industry to a schematic production model, fine. A couple of salient points.

 

1/ EVE has a massive missioning system that gives pilots a wide array of possible paths to take, DU has mining ore and building a small factory set up....... cool (so lets remove 50% of that, players have far to much too do)

 

2/ EVE has a vast array of ships and items produced by players and corps available from go, DU has flying coffins built with a bent nail with a rubber chicken for a hammer...... cool

 

Pretty much what I mentioned here, yes.. I absolutely agree..

 

 

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3 hours ago, Dhara said:

That is a great concern of mine too.  One of my guys is a week into crafting a warp beacon.  Do we lose all that work and resources now?

Nope. JC was very clear about this. Your current recipes that are in process will finish. Just don't stop them, otherwise you are SOL.

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Horrible idea!

How can you say that people aren't using the markets as intended when we can't use the markets because of lag and de-sync? I don't go to the markets because every time I go there I end up crashing into some invisible (and i do mean invisible because there is nothing within 500m of my ship on radar or mini-map) thing and blowing up half my ship.

How can you say that people aren't using the markets as intended when you haven't even started deploying all the "key pillars" of the game? like pvp and territory warfare?

You haven't given us reasonable player markets and tools yet to use and you sit there and complain that people aren't using it??? WTF?

Where is the historical price data? Where are the search filters? Where is the market/planet comparison data? Where is the API data so that players can create third party tools to actually start market trading? Where are the item descriptions in the market? Where are the item specifications in the market? Where are the player made markets terminals?

Everyone is waiting on YOU, NQ, to finish the market development to start playing the market!!

You haven't done crap with the markets and yet you are complaint and trying to fix a problem that is of your own making by not finishing the development of a key pillar of the game: The Markets!

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Well I know it won't matter but I've turned off the auto renew on my two accounts and will see how this works over the next month that I have remaining in account time. 

 

I really think that screwing over solo players is going to hurt the game as not everyone wants to be another cog in the corporate wheel.

 

Those that have already made enough money to continue will just make more money and the rest will quit imo

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6 hours ago, blazemonger said:

So T1 schematics will go for 100K a piece.. damn..

That will be fun

 

The big orgs are already reconfiguring their industry to produce high tier stuff as running production lines will keep running post patch as JC said.. SO as long as they feed in ore, they bypass the whole change.. 

 

Great way to go about this NQ..

 

 

What the actual.... are NQ playing at? Un f...ing believable.... No way...  this can’t be true!!! Can it? Are there any citations?... I mean seriously.


The whole point of this is to BALANCE THE UNIVERSE (their words) and instead according to this, they are permanently unbalancing it and giving a massive, wet hand job to all the mega orgs....


 

—- edit: ok. it seems the machines stop after the current batch is complete and won’t restart without slave potions. 

  

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

The fact NQ considers the Linked container range a "problem they need to address" because using the range to collect ore while mining is "not intended behavior"

So here we have out next big nerf.. NQ will bring the max range for linked containers down to a point they no longer are usable in mining.. say 250-300 meters tops

 

They better give me my 2 million skill points back if they do. 

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35 minutes ago, PaidProfessional said:

PLEASE make sure you set all factories to "Finish and stop" when you implement this or you will absolutely NEUTUR newer players by allowing mega-corps that already have running factories to continue without having to use the blueprints.

I'm going to assume they have industry coded, to check if that machine can actually make the item, before it starts a new batch. JC said the machines will keep running till it finishes, so it shouldn't just run forever.

 

If, the machines do end up starting new batches without the schematics or higher tier machines, I'd consider that a massive problem, that would merit them immediately shutting the server down to fix, like that time they made changed to how industry machines do batching, and it caused some really weird and high numbers of items trying to be made, for maybe 10 minutes, before NQ shut the server down to fix.

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4 hours ago, Majestic said:

This is going to stop me playing I think, I am part of a large ish ORG but I have been enjoying being self sufficient. 

 

...snip... 

It's in danger of becoming less of a space Sandbox and more of an Economy Simulator 2.0.


An economy simulator where THE ENTIRE ECONOMY is based on intangible guardian god-bots that provide magic slave-potions endowed with human knowledge in exchange for delivering slavery to the masses. 
 

what kind of economy are they simulating, exactly?

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4 hours ago, PuPpEt said:

All those changes will need a wipe obviously, or the already big disparity will grow exponentially.

It will grow anyway. A wipe will just delay the disparity by a few weeks.

 

——

I mentioned this further back in this thread...

 

there’s only two things we need to ask ourselves:

 

1) will these changes increase the amount of time we spend doing things we like or things we dislike?

 

2) will this increase our freedom within the game to do more and experience the sandbox to its fullest extent?

 

if the player answers “no” to both the above, then we can say the game is no longer suitable for the player 

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7 hours ago, Pleione said:

7) The markets currently sell products at or below production cost, so many just mine their own material and build up from there.  Making intermediate parts more expensive just forces us to do more of that (yeah, I'm a miner/industrialist).

ase.

Can you tell me a product in which this is true?

 

I can buy ore and make profit on everything I try.

 

Randomly you will find a single instance of a sale out of price but thats it. Nothing sustained.

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11 hours ago, Olmeca_Gold said:

Hi NQ

 

Nobody can dispute making everything in megafactories was too easy, linear, and out of balance. But there are so many issues with your approach to fix it.

 

 

PROBLEM 1) You are putting yourselves in quite a position with treating the game as a beta and non-beta whenever it works. On one hand, with the promise of keeping our wealth into the release, we're expected to treat the game as it's an actual launch to compete with other players and organizations. But then there is no support, mechanics can change dramatically, etc. You're also putting at least a 6-months gap between those who could exploit the unbalanced mechanics early and accumulate wealth, and those who couldn't.

 

SOLUTION: I don't really have a solution to this. Perhaps the best way to operate right now is to announce a full wipe at the end of beta if you can financially handle it.

 

 

PROBLEM 2) This update leaked to lots of people for several weeks. The knowledge put those people further ahead.

 

SOLUTION: Either enforce your NDA, or do not disclose (economically sensitive) details of how you'll change things.

 

 

PROBLEM 3)  Completely unhelpful talents just to unlock elements are a bad idea. Eve Online learned this lesson over the years and they are doing away with artificial prerequisites to start playing the game. Industry is one of the rare domains where talents actually GREATLY matter. Most production will eventually become unviable overtime without respective talents. It's bad analysis if you thought the lack of talents was an issue.

 

SOLUTION: If you want to wall element usage behind talents, you should do so behind the existing talents. This way at least people get a benefit alongside element access. A sense of actual progression and no waste of days of training.

 

 

PROBLEM 4) I am quite worried whether the game actually has enough quanta supply recipes for sufficient production.

 

SOLUTION: The game needs isk faucets besides the honeycomb NPC order businesses. I have low-cost proposals for that in the idea box.

 

 

PROBLEM 5) Machine-based recipes create lots of issues. It'll be quite tedious to teach the recipes to every single element and to keep tabs on them even in non-megafactories. Moreover, how will our investments be saved? I hope (but am not certain) the recipes will be saved under "dynamic properties" of a machine. But then we won't be able to deploy the same factory from a blueprint. It'll be impossible to move factories. So you're not only investing in the machine, but also in the location of the factory. That'll have even greater repercussions with territory warfare. 

 

SOLUTION: You should have at least made the recipes character-based. Given that you don't tolerate account sharing and ban those who do, this would still achieve specialization, yet make it way less tedious.

 

 

PROBLEM 6) Cost is an artificial and unsustainable way to motivate people to specialize. Once people accumulate enough capital, megafactories will begin popping again. Then those who can afford them will be miles ahead of others.

 

SOLUTION: To achieve truly sustainable differentiation and specialization, there needs to be differentiation in the ways the source materials are acquired. Ore is equally available to every individual. It should take organizational level effort to access some building materials; it should take outside-the-box intelligently developed systems to access others. Moreover, it should make more sense to make one product somewhere and to make another elsewhere (geographically). 

Nice post.

Regarding "problem 6"

I think that it simply should not be possible for a single player to specialise in multiple areas.  So, for example, If I specialise in "electronics industry"  I should not also be allowed to specialise in "Chemical industry"  So, a mega factory will require multiple people in an org all working together.  Players with those skills will become desirable because you may have to replace your honeycombe specialist who left.  In this way its not dependant on wealth or how long you have played.

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Oh man, this adds a lot of tedium to factory play.  Want to make one more type of adjustor?  Figure out exactly what machines you need all the way down to parts.   Check if you have available links for parts or need to add more.  Go to the lag fest market and buy all that.   Come back and put it together.  Pray you didn't miss a part container out of links and have to go back to the market.

 

That doesn't sound fun.  I avoid markets because the game runs terribly for me there.  Now I have to go either to keep expanding my factory or for everything because I can't afford to restart my factory.

 

Games are supposed to be fun.  Hard and time consuming are typically anti-fun.  Maybe they balance the system and push this towards the developers vision but if it sucks fun from the game, seems like a bad solution. 

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10 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

 

 

I have no doubt that working with anything other than T1 will get very expensive  very quickly now and the big orgs will en-mass start to mine and stockpile a lot of components and even elements to prevent the cost this will bring post patch. And it will only take a day or two for their massive mega factories to start churning out these parts.

 

 

 

I sold 50M$ on parts today , I didn't understand it. Now I do.A lot of warp drives last week, much more than usual.I bet certain people knew this before it was published.

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