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[Discussion] DevBlog: Rebalancing the Universe


NQ-Naunet
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I should have put this in my original post, but Im too lazy to edit. This system doesn't prevent large factories. It just delays them. Ill still be able to make everything eventually, itll just take a few more weeks. Especially if I have friends and we can all split up talent lines. Power should have and needs to come first. Every single "balance" patch NQ has done or proposed in the last month means nothing when power finally comes. 

 

We all know power should have been one of the first mechanics in the game, but here we are. NQ has to focus on power if they want any of these balance changes to mean anything. 

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17 minutes ago, TheonlyLoki said:

a terrible solution to the problem stated.

For me is actually unclear what is the problem.
If it was/is :

Markets overall were not being used as much as they were intended to

 

This is a sandbox game; come on....

WE the players decided not to use those crappy markets.

You at NQ may try to force us to play the way you want, but we will not. Unless you give up principle this being a sandbox.

Make markets better, analyze what really is wrong there, make markets more appealing, remove all that junk and garbage around them them, ,fix lag there, fix supply, ( now you are limiting supply)

And then WE may start to use them.

 


 

Edited by kulkija
typo
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17 minutes ago, AtroKahn said:

I think it an excellent idea. I buy stuff now off the market because of the convenience. Once you incorporate played owed markets this will create opportunities for everyone to "git gud" at doing something they enjoy.

Git Gud? You mean, like Mining Bauxite... Or Mining Chromite... Or Mining Acanthite... Hmm... Lots of variety of things to Git Gud at... 

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While I agree that this system will be beneficial to the game in the long run, I think it is important for NQ to realize that the game is, in fact, released. Pulling things like this in alpha NDA is no big deal at all, but when the game is public and charging a subscription, not OK. I fear that NQ will get a bad rep for themselves by killing their game early on because they were not prepared for release. I would hate to see DU become the next NoManSky... (A good game that no one plays because it has bad rep)

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13 minutes ago, Mornington said:

there are so many other aspects of the roadmap that should have come in first, before this can even work

 

you said you were going to employ someone who actually knew anything about economics at a degree level

 

I'm guessing you have not done that, because they should have advised you against this

They did hire an economist. Where do you think the free 100,000 daily quanta idea came from?  Classic Keynes.

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19 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

And it started.. Warp drives entirely sold out.. Thanks NQ..

Wow, for completely different reasons I just plunked 1.5Mℏ on a Warp Drive yesterday. LOL... Lucky?... I guess... 

At the end of the day, these are all that matter:

Will I be able to do MORE of what I want to do with my time in game?
Will each activity I do in game become more enjoyable?

 

And finally, most importantly:

Will these changes make the game more or less fun for me to play?
 

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If you're gonna do this crap then the factories need to be simple and easy. WHy even have this linking mechanic crap trying to be factorio if I can't just build my mega factory. Whats the points of transfer hubs and link limits if im only gonna be able to afford to make a few pieces anyway. Not worth and im probably done playing. I spent 100 hours making an efficient factory for you to just break it all and make it useless. No thanks.

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2 minutes ago, MicoPopenay said:

If you are going to implement this kind of system (a lot like EVE online IMHO see https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Research) you need to release the Research Facility and the buying / selling of researched schematics at the same time otherwise this is just a nerf and not actually changing the gameplay in any tangible way.

Just one more in a long line of "content gates"... and "time gates"  And in this case... "Org Membership Gates" as in it puts more power in the hands of the orgs and moves gameplay away from the sole traders, lone wolves and mini-org players, forcing them to grind more to support the big orgs rather than their own playstyles.

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55 minutes ago, BiGEdge said:

Basic Balancing is the most important right now...
More and more people are leaving the game, because they have everything with little effort within a month.
Thats exactly what i expected with the last Alpha patch when the beta started.
And the whining from many people when making everything harder or nerfing some systems afterwards was another thing that i expected.

What i have learned after all the years, that NQ always tryes to do anything to make DU an emergent system.
A second Life, a virtual identity, where you have to work befor you get something.
Not like in other games where you play for couple weks and you have everything you need.

This is exactly what was needed to make the community bring more people to the game, because you need them to archive something big.
But i agree... not listening and start easy and not sticking to the initial plan would disappoint people.
The initial plan was, that it would take weeks or even month to have a ship and reach other planets.
Now with some issues and even some people who will stop playing because everything will be too hard for them was expected
 

Excuse me sir!!!!!! Are you out of touch!?!?!?!?!?! It only seems easy for you Alpha Tester because you got to exploit earlier glitches. And it is my guess you are a part of a larger org. I jump to play this game to play this game for it had a market like Eve and had factory building like Factorio and Satifactory which fit both me (a factory builder gamer) and my Friend (who likes the market). we both played Eve and hated that you had to have a PAID subscription for Months if not years just to do anything because of a skill is needed just for entry to be able to make Isk or even fly ships that wont just get killed in an instant from a gate ambush. This Update will kill any small org of a few players (like ours, which we are trying to grow). We are struggling to just make money in this game as it. We didn't play the game that you see in Youtube where we focused only on selling ore or making only high money value elements. We just moved to a new planet which took over two months (my total play time) and millions of quanta just so we can build a factory so we can help disrupt an over inflated market. This is all to encourage people to move off of Alioth. Our true aim is to be a ship manufacturer but we need money to sustain the building process and proto typing phases that incurs. This Game already has a lot to tackle for small orgs or solo players. This update will only cause more harm then good.     (As a side not we also moved to another planet because my friend doesn't have a high end computer so we moved to a less populated planet so he can still play the game while he waits for money IRL to upgrade his PC)

 

I think if they want to stimulate that market, they need to have more avenues of income other than the aforementioned methods that are on youtube and daily login. If people have money that can be made more easily/readily, they will be more willing to spend it. 

 

Like others said another fix is supply, whether that is make it a little easier to find ore or allow talents to increase your output of manufacturing. the more supply that can be put on the market the more prices will drop and allow for the more flow of quanta.

 

Focusing on PVP will also allow for the flow of good to be generated, as like in Eve, this will drive the production of good as stuff is destroyed. For with out a demand of stuff people, especially mega orgs, will only stock pile items or not manufacture for sale as there isn't a strong demand for them. tedious grinds is what kills games for the bulk of players.

 

These other fix like with anything can be exploited by Mega orgs but that is the nature of mega org. they have enough people to cope with any changes. If you want to help the market then you need avenues that drive competition not make it more of an monopoly for the Mega Orgs. It is better to have a bunch of small orgs that cause friendly competition then to do something that is more benefitable for mega orgs. 

 

If this patch goes through and this games just becomes a place where if you are in a small group or solo you cant really play at all, I think I will just count my loss of a year subscription and forget this game. I like the game as is because it allow us to build something spectacular but this update will only kill it. If people have everything "too easily", then they are not dreaming big.

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I guess the following cite of the devblog is the key reason for getting  those schematics into the game:
"Mass production is a key element here. If you need just one or two items it should not make sense to build a factory to produce such small quantities. You should instead go on the markets and buy it from a specialized producer. This is the basis on which we can hope to see a healthy economy strive in the game."

 

The current state of product prices on markets is that prices are very low.

If u r a player who needs some products for himself only, as described in the cite above, then you have no reason to produce it urself because with ur skills u cant produce anything and beat the market prices. You will have more products/money if u just farm some ore, sell it and buy the products.
Therefore the schematics have no sense in that way. The only thing it will do is  lifting the prices a bit for a short period of time until all valuable producers bought those schematics. After that point it will be like now (without schematics).

 

Also there will be players which will buy schematics and produce the stuff needed by themselfs anyways.

The same thing is happening right now without schematics. Players are producing stuff instead of buying it even if buying  it would be much cheaper. And thats the case in the current state. The products on market are much cheaper as a (non-factory-skilled) player could produce it. But they produce instead of buying it. This is not logically but it is what players do...  and no schematic will change it.

 

I suppose: Forget schematics!

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9 minutes ago, Kruzer said:

They did hire an economist. Where do you think the free 100,000 daily quanta idea came from?  Classic Keynes.

timeline wrong there - JC said they had lack of one in interview I saw that was broadcast after I started - after 100k was already being given out :)

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Ok.  I understand the sentiment \ understand why a need has been perceived but.....
I am a generalist - I dabble in mining, refining, constructing, ship building, scripting, selling....  These recent proposals seem to "Want to force people into a speciality".  It appears that dabbling will not be cost effective or supported. I personally don't want to make make billions.  I would like to make enough so I can decide whether to build something or to buy it.  I may be happy to wait a couple of hours to build an engine, but if I am developing \ testing new scripts and need a specific element to test against I may decide to buy it instead.

To be honest, I think this level of "balancing" is too early - Yes, they are likely needed but there are more important elements to focus on - RDMS, Stability of the server, Working on the feedback from the beta testers who have used the system thus far....

 

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For a lot of people currently playing and paying, Im sure the following three words will come to mind.

Nail, Final and Coffin.

You are going to severely kill off a LOT of your player base doing this. I hope you guys have banked enough cash from those subscriptions to carry you through, what will undoubtably be, some very lean times ahead. 

 

Yes, I realise this is a Beta, the question is, do those that are actually paying the monthly light bills realise it ?

 

I wish ya'll the best and I really hope this does not kill the project.

Drunkhistory Crazy GIF - Drunkhistory Crazy GIFs

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Ok, so I reread the devblog...

And realise I didn't misread it in an angry rage-frenzy the first time...

Basically all they have done is added a cost multiplier to the factory units by way of proxy so as to avoid having to wipe mega org mega factories.
Which will exactly achieve the following according economics 101

1) Manufacturers ALWAYS pass cost increases on to the consumers.

ergo... 


2) If you are a consumer (i.e. not in a mega org),  you better mine the fuck out of everything everywhere if you want to to have enough to buy stuff from the markets...




 

6 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

Also I'd probably like to be able to respec my talent points, because I'm a solo player with a generalized manufacturer alt, and with these updates that will no longer be a viable playstyle. And I'm sure there will be lots of people in a similar boat, now or later in beta, where they spent their talents points in ways that will no longer be viable after a major redesign like this.

Better just put every SP you have into advanced mining and inventory control... Since ores values are now basically deflated by some unknown factor and they are running out, to boot.

 

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1 hour ago, ArmitageShanks said:

Might at well say, "Well, this game is really only designed for mega orgs with billions of resources, piss off all you filthy casuals."

I think the right translation is:  "This game is for huge orgs where everybody pitches to all their friends so that we can sell lots and lots of subscriptions..."

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I just found out the details of Schematics.  I didn't see the original post (couldn't find it) before my first post and thought it was about adding power to factories.  This sounds like Dictator tactics and will make it so most of us quit the game and go to other space games like Empyrion because we can't afford to buy schematics to progress in the game.  I am restraining myself from using a particular dictator name. Schematics sounds way too complicated as well as expensive and  I wonder what will happen to the NanoCrafter which I use a lot.  I suspect this is some scheme for the game owners to make money somehow but its not a good one. 

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I totally get this is a beta and stuff is subject to change.....  Please however remember most of us are paying customers and expect some fun and support in return for the time and money invested in your game! 


Like many, I came to this game from viewing the trailers etc. In them they promise a great deal of freedom, no classes and the ability to DU whatever you find fun. For me, the majority of my time in DU has been to build the factory and skills, with long (boring) hours mining to create it and then make and sell ships to fly and fight with.  I felt this sounded the perfect game for me and invested a lot of time to do just that and ended up with 4 accounts.

 

These changes push industry and therefore ship building to be only practical for the big orgs with enough members to fill their wallets and afford the schematics.  Within a big org only a few trusted players will realistically be allowed access to these very valuable schematics. What is left for everyone else to do?  I'm not going to pay for four accounts just to be a human mining bot to enable only a few chosen players have all the fun.   

 

Additionally the advertised "no fixed classes" is not true if the goal of these changes are to put every viable role behind a huge time(and therefore pay) wall of specialised training to make it competitive. Think about it... If only the minority of players get to experience parts of the game they find fun, then majority of players will quit and the large orgs will not be able to sustain themselves.  


How about a "fix" for industry and other activities is to make them more interactive and even fun!?!? E.g. they player running the factory has to do tasks which therefore automatically scales down production as humans are the bottleneck.

 

Selling my industry machines doesn't even come close to recover the time, quanta and real money invested. No doubt it's too late to read these comments and make changes to the patch, so can you at least consider refunding the months of wasted skill training?

 

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Introducing schematics  is going to screw every single player living anywhere except Alioth, as the market in the sticks barely have anything to sell/buy anyway, smaller orgs too.

 

How you gonna balance the price of those schematics?

Will they be one time use?

Will we be able to remove them from industry units, when we decide to remodel or move our factory?

Will the buying /selling bots finally be removed from the game?

 

 

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