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[Discussion] DevBlog: Rebalancing the Universe


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5 hours ago, nurocept said:

This could have easily been avoided by enforcing power management on everyone's factories.

THIS !!!

 

you can still have tons of factories but they can only partially be active once you reach your energy cap - that would be a nice balancing !

maybe with the ability to apply some of your own quota to the corp *BINGO

 

energy-cap can be trained ?

ohh, thats okey ...

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I am afraid that this type of change in production is a game killer for smaller groups and solo players. The use of schematics will force smaller groups into having to buy everything with no real way of making money, to feed the mega corps. that can afford to be the producers. It seems everything in this game is getting more and more slanted to the idea of mega corps. with character specialization as the vehicle to that end. I don't see much of a future of new players entering into a game that promotes individuality, but then restricts the individual and small groups of part time players in participating out side of a larger group. Our little group of 5 active players see no future in continuing in this game with the direction it is heading...

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Lack of redress for boarder cases doesn't help... it just breeds contempt.  In my case, building a Warp Beacon has been my goal since they were introduced.  I want to use it to enable my L core space station to become a trading center.  Building it is a bitch... just mining the niobium ore required was months of effort, much less the time it takes to refine.  Anyhow, the last piece I need, the Exotic XL frame, is finally in the oven and will be done in a few days.  The Warp Beacon itself is a 30 day recipe, but oops... I'll be a couple of days to late to that party.  Anybody that does manage to get a Warp Beacon in the oven before tomorrow will get one without a schematic.  I'll have to buy such a schematic, if they are even available, at a currently unknown price (but guessing several hundred million since this is the hardest thing in the game to craft).  Somehow this is viewed as fair?  

 

Of course, nothing a Wipe wouldn't solve, but we know that isn't going to happen.

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On 12/7/2020 at 10:16 AM, Olmeca_Gold said:

Hi NQ

 

Nobody can dispute making everything in megafactories was too easy, linear, and out of balance. But there are so many issues with your approach to fix it.

 

 

PROBLEM 1) You are putting yourselves in quite a position with treating the game as a beta and non-beta whenever it works. On one hand, with the promise of keeping our wealth into the release, we're expected to treat the game as it's an actual launch to compete with other players and organizations. But then there is no support, mechanics can change dramatically, etc. You're also putting at least a 6-months gap between those who could exploit the unbalanced mechanics early and accumulate wealth, and those who couldn't.

 

SOLUTION: I don't really have a solution to this. Perhaps the best way to operate right now is to announce a full wipe at the end of beta if you can financially handle it.

 

 

PROBLEM 2) This update leaked to lots of people for several weeks. The knowledge put those people further ahead.

 

SOLUTION: Either enforce your NDA, or do not disclose (economically sensitive) details of how you'll change things.

 

 

PROBLEM 3)  Completely unhelpful talents just to unlock elements are a bad idea. Eve Online learned this lesson over the years and they are doing away with artificial prerequisites to start playing the game. Industry is one of the rare domains where talents actually GREATLY matter. Most production will eventually become unviable overtime without respective talents. It's bad analysis if you thought the lack of talents was an issue.

 

SOLUTION: If you want to wall element usage behind talents, you should do so behind the existing talents. This way at least people get a benefit alongside element access. A sense of actual progression and no waste of days of training.

 

 

PROBLEM 4) I am quite worried whether the game actually has enough quanta supply recipes for sufficient production.

 

SOLUTION: The game needs isk faucets besides the honeycomb NPC order businesses. I have low-cost proposals for that in the idea box.

 

 

PROBLEM 5) Machine-based recipes create lots of issues. It'll be quite tedious to teach the recipes to every single element and to keep tabs on them even in non-megafactories. Moreover, how will our investments be saved? I hope (but am not certain) the recipes will be saved under "dynamic properties" of a machine. But then we won't be able to deploy the same factory from a blueprint. It'll be impossible to move factories. So you're not only investing in the machine, but also in the location of the factory. That'll have even greater repercussions with territory warfare. 

 

SOLUTION: You should have at least made the recipes character-based. Given that you don't tolerate account sharing and ban those who do, this would still achieve specialization, yet make it way less tedious.

 

 

PROBLEM 6) Cost is an artificial and unsustainable way to motivate people to specialize. Once people accumulate enough capital, megafactories will begin popping again. Then those who can afford them will be miles ahead of others.

 

SOLUTION: To achieve truly sustainable differentiation and specialization, there needs to be differentiation in the ways the source materials are acquired. Ore is equally available to every individual. It should take organizational level effort to access some building materials; it should take outside-the-box intelligently developed systems to access others. Moreover, it should make more sense to make one product somewhere and to make another elsewhere (geographically). 

This is one of the reasons why he was in the EVE online CSM.  

 

More or less what he has said is correct.  

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Will I loose the medium ant-grave it has taken the last 3 weeks to make when it is 2 days from being finished ?

and I want NQ to answer this .

Otherwise this is a one sided discussion.... 

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NQ I love this game, I write this not to complain but to impress upon you the dangers of this move.

First off though mega factories are probably not beneficial to the game, the largest orgs will always manage this though but it almost certainly shouldnt be the case that one player can invest 3 weeks of time and be able to build anything at a whim so long as they have the ores etc.

 

I don't believe this was a good focus of your time at this very point in the game for a few reasons:

1. this is such a foundational mechanic being changed that it has an impact on the playerbase both current and future.

  a. Currently, the game loop is something like; mine for ore, place down a base, mine for ore, build a ship, mine for ore, build a bigger ship. This proposal changes that to mine for ore, place down a base (TU), mine for ore, sell your ore, buy some parts, build a ship. This works for those that simply want to build something but a good portion of the community seem to like building factories and without that it's just taking away a game loop and replacing it with 'buy from market'.

 

Solution: unfortunately its a change the playerbase needs to suck up but the lack of additional game loops probably puts a timer on this games staying power with most players, perhaps getting the missions in or additional mining options and increased pvp options would be good so that these sorts of changes can be phased in along with such content, i appreciate this is a weak solution in as much as it is vague.


  b. Long time players now have an exponential advantage over newer players, obviously a longer time player should have an advantage but it should be linear; I did a fair bit of reading on this game and it appears the game has had a few exploits and game mechanics that have been pushed to the max to make many players extremely wealthy. if schematics cost money then this change is unlikely to limit such players and if it does it will always effect newer players more.


Solution: difficult to tell how to make this fair, a wipe would be easiest but people have obviously put countless hours into this game and to take that away would be damaging to the game and pretty damned unfair to them considering you promised no wipe (whoops, better hope these foundational changes don't cause significant exploits).  I feel like this puts the community into two camps, the haves and the have nots, this is probably a discussion in its own right.

 

c. I can't see how a new player is going to progress without being forced to mine and sell, this repetition is going to get old fast.

 

Solution: as above phase content in with these changes to give players who lost their factory content a chance at other kinds of gameplay, currently this patch is a bunch of compounding gameplay changes that could mix together to really cause some negative blowback which can't be good for anyone involved.

 

2. This change makes me question what the current state of the game is, is it a beta or is it a soft release; no wipe sort of indicated to me that this was more of a soft release but i don't believe changing a game mechanic in such a fundamental way can be healthy for the game (see point 1b).

 

Solution: Really would be good to get an answer here, if it is a beta then a wipe probably should come back on the table, otherwise continuance of these kind of changes is going to be a gamble with whether or not you can keep such promises to the community.

 

3. Communication is something I feel is lacking from you as a developer, you could make the argument that you didn't want the playerbase to stock up on items given enough warning but that is irrelevant based on this information getting out weeks in advance (if other posts and sources are to be believed) to some players.

 

This could have been avoided by levelling the playing field by making the playerbase aware of your intentions a month in advance, this would have caused stockpiling but eventually this would be less of an issue, i can't help coming back to point 2, perhaps the reason you didnt want it getting out was so you could track the effect the change had immediately, in which case this is more a dev sandbox and a wipe of some description may end up being inevitable, im not wanting one nor am i not wanting one but telling the playerbase there will be no wipe and then doing something like this is risky for you and for all players who want to see this game flourish.

 

4. Is it true element destruction is in this patch too? If so then this combined with the changes to industry and the change to how ships behave when a player alt+f4 could be a perfect storm whereby players find themselves at the mercy of bugs, destroyed elements and a very volatile market which could end up in sub losses, none that wants to see this game prevail wants this and so it occurs to me a more phased approach to such changes may be in order.

 

Solution: each patch should avoid multiple drastic changes and be much more phased.

 

5. Markets are not the most performant of areas, now we will see more traffic going to these markets its worth considering:
  a. a cleanup of the markets, i cannot imagine the containers on dynamic cores or the ships that have been there since i started playing are good for the lag.

  b. A retrospective on whether the markets can handle high volumes of players.

 

Solution: would it be possible to work on a solution to gameplay that gets all the junk out of markets, i feel like this is a prerequise as well as things like player markets but i digress.

 

I like to give solutions where i can but i am still quite new to the game, so I appreciate many of them may not have hit the mark, I hope this view from a fairly new player was helpful.

 

I don't intend this to be a moan, I really have no other desire for this game to succeed and for that I believe a healthy dose of honest criticism is necessary, here is hoping when the dust settles this patch turns out to be less disruptive than i imagined but then if the communication was there no one would need to imagine anything :)

 

 

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I've been talking with some people in my Org....
And the feelings about this one are bad.

The thing is, like mentioned, it will make the large and rich Orgs even larger and stronger. The smaller one or even lone wolf-players won't have a chance.
The Idea is that everyone has to write his own story in this game, right? But you're literally frocing everyone to join a big corp.
Really. People i know think about quitting if this goes live as we understand it.
An Energy System would be more balancy. Different generators wich need different fuel and so on.
What the community really awaits (for most part) is the player-driven quest-system.
And when you're so into bringing up the economy: Stop giving everyone a login bonus of 100k lol Inflation and so on.
Upon that a quanta wipe for every player would be fair, so everyone starts with the same conditions with this new ruleset

Other things coming in mind:
Are walls of engines necessary? Or wanted in the game? I mean, a A380 weighs more than some atmo-ships with more engines wich we've seen. Engines really need rebalancing. Make them more forceful so you need less and your ships don't look like a piece of sh*t.

Then: Could you PLEASE fix the bug wich makes you fall through voxels when you're falling too fast onto them? That's annoying when you have a base on the water.

And pls...If you do a translation to german, do the whole thing. Skills are still english.

That's all so far from my side.

 

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On 12/7/2020 at 3:27 PM, Morituri said:

Add some Parking Fee for those who trashes their ship next to market. Or do some administrative to permition only for good constructs and ban tons of crapy containers.

Second. Fix the lag fest!

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If you're going to attempt to create an accurate economic model with these changes you will need to introduce a few extra 'things' to the process.

 

 - Market discounts for bulk purchases with different discount levels per organisation

-  Credit  

 

I for one will be creating a new organisation, I will call it 'Mastercard'. I will make all your dreams come true.......... at 45% APR

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On 12/7/2020 at 4:14 PM, BiGEdge said:

Basic Balancing is the most important right now...
More and more people are leaving the game, because they have everything with little effort within a month.
Thats exactly what i expected with the last Alpha patch when the beta started.
And the whining from many people when making everything harder or nerfing some systems afterwards was another thing that i expected.

What i have learned after all the years, that NQ always tryes to do anything to make DU an emergent system.
A second Life, a virtual identity, where you have to work befor you get something.
Not like in other games where you play for couple weks and you have everything you need.

This is exactly what was needed to make the community bring more people to the game, because you need them to archive something big.
But i agree... not listening and start easy and not sticking to the initial plan would disappoint people.
The initial plan was, that it would take weeks or even month to have a ship and reach other planets.
Now with some issues and even some people who will stop playing because everything will be too hard for them was expected
 

Right on. Too many posts referring to all this 'work' theyre doing in game. How about get a job, discover what work really is and realise that this is actually entertainment....

 

Awesome game NQ, I wont be going anywhere.

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16 minutes ago, Tictaq said:

Right on. Too many posts referring to all this 'work' theyre doing in game. How about get a job, discover what work really is and realise that this is actually entertainment....

 

Awesome game NQ, I wont be going anywhere.

 

I am glad you think this game is awesome, in fact, i happen to share that viewpoint but this seems like a misconception of a core game dynamic.

 

There is a very clear line between a game that challenges you and a game that creates tedious activities in order for you to achieve your goals.

 

A challenge would be something like designing a ground based vehicle that can go through a mining tunnel and be used to remove minerals from the hole or creating a vehicle that can dig down and help you locate ore 

 

A tedious activity would be lowering the link range such that you have to set up a chain of containers in order to move your ore out, hell i didn't mind the mining as it was but there is certainly an argument for it being tedious as it stands.

 

Players are willing to put up with tedious tasks in order to achieve a goal that they deem to be fun, for me my goal is to make a large dynamic construct able to act as a forward operating base for mining purposes complete with defensive weapons. 

I can still do that with the current system but there is just a lot in this patch that makes the game tedious over making it challenging.

I have played many a sandbox game, SWG was my forever love and the original holo grind was an absolute pain to get through, followed by the grind to saber 4 and other key trees but once you got there you were somewhat a god if you didn't over do it; this is a great example of locking something rewarding behind a tedious grind, i and others like me were only willing to do it because we wanted that shiny glow stick and we wanted it to be a deadly shiny glow stick, not once did i enjoy that tedious grind, it was a clear indication that the devs had no other idea than 'lock this behind a massive grind' which just isn't fun even though the end goal was.

 

As for getting a job, that seems a pretty tone deaf thing to say to people, I am sure, like with any other game there are those that have never worked a day in their life playing this game but I suspect a good proportion will have lost their job to COVID-19 or be on furlough if they live in a country where they are lucky enough to have that option.

 

Others, like myself have jobs and I can tell you this, I love my job, i enjoy software architecture and engineering, i enjoy building what i build, it is work but it is a challenge and that is what i like; mining in this game is a job where there is no challenge only tedious tasks.

 

So how does this relate to industry changes? Clearly they aren't adding challenges to the game, they are adding bots that sell a item needed to produce things, there is no challenge here, they could have opted to work on a power management system or made creating factories more challenging, they could have allowed players to obtain these schematics through a challenge such as a talent-led mini game, instead they added a quanta sink.

 

I don't actually disagree with the direction they are trying to take the game via this change just the execution, i actually see myself playing this game for quite some time but I really would like to see changes to accompany this patch in the near future to add challenge not tedium.

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41 minutes ago, Tictaq said:

Right on. Too many posts referring to all this 'work' theyre doing in game. How about get a job, discover what work really is and realise that this is actually entertainment....

 

Awesome game NQ, I wont be going anywhere.

yeah, thats the point, its supposed to be 'entertainment'. Which, for me, isnt paying a sub to spend hours mining just to get to actually do anything fun months down the line. B O R I N G.

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1 hour ago, JoeKing said:

yeah, thats the point, its supposed to be 'entertainment'. Which, for me, isnt paying a sub to spend hours mining just to get to actually do anything fun months down the line. B O R I N G.

Exactly, I have quit EVE Online because it was not fun, it was a job. If this becomes like that, it's over for me. Of course this is a matter of opinion as to what is fun and what is not. Games requires grinding to extend the time you need to play it, but there is a limit to what grinding is needed versus the fun it procures.

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On 12/7/2020 at 12:49 PM, Filokwarq2 said:

Star Wars Galaxies had a great aproach to Indrustry-Automation. I was hoping for something like that when people were talking about recipes.

Nice to see another SWG refuge that understood and greatly appreciated the industry system. It hasn't been seen since that time anywhere and it's sorely missed. I believe devs with advanced degrees tend to over think everything and lose perspective on what fun means. 

 

I would pay 2x the monthly subscription to get a good MMO experience that implemented most (if not all) of the features that SWG had. 

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10 minutes ago, Palad1n said:

Nice to see another SWG refuge that understood and greatly appreciated the industry system. It hasn't been seen since that time anywhere and it's sorely missed. I believe devs with advanced degrees tend to over think everything and lose perspective on what fun means. 

 

I would pay 2x the monthly subscription to get a good MMO experience that implemented most (if not all) of the features that SWG had. 

haha  They are not game designers they are scientists and its showing through very much here.   This update might be the death of the game.   congratulation Everyone who played the game for fun just quit.   We played for fun and this is more like working.    How many Others will quit because of this patch?     You just took out the very few ways players made money and added 10 that take money from players.    it does not take a Genius to see where this will lead,  most players will be bankrupt.   Good luck getting new players. 

 

 

 

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It took Eve a decade or more to continuously nerf the game to where everybody was equal and the game became extremely boring.

It took a decade for Goonswarm to control Eve to where they booted out their members for doing a minor mistake, or not taking orders, or did not logon when ordered to play the game.

Much like a dictatorship we DU plebs must be controlled by larger organizations.  They have the money, or will have, and they will have the power.

Now DU wants to do this during Beta, and even before launch.

 

I invested in DU because I had the freedom to travel space, if only on my PC.

 

Why try and perfect the game before launch and anger much of your current base?

Your current base is all you have right now with hundreds of new and similar games being launched annually.

 

Just leave the market/production problems and build more distance and beauty to keep your players excited.

How about new planets? Instead of bettering the old ones (each I have visited) build bright new ones.

Build a new solar system or three so that players can explore and mine your new pretty planets.

With new ways and ideas to travel using warp drive, it will really add to your original and getting mined-out planets in your solar system.

Let players build their markets/factories/organizations in these new worlds.

Hopefully Alioth will become Jita(Eve) and when I played Eve I got in and out of Jita as fast as I could.

 

Numbers of solar systems works well in Elite Dangerous.

Imagine getting through the PVP hordes, warping out and finding and exploring new horizons, where there is nobody else.

Now the explorer has time to build a base, set up defenses and ready for the inevitable PVP that will come. 

Richer ores from these new systems will always have to go through the danger areas to sell their wares.

Let the player have some freedom to use their own innovation to get to market/explore/travel. Not keep the player in a box with the game/organizations telling them what they can and cannot do.

 

I believe that you are beginning to control me the small single player. I don't like that. 

Also I am not your young kill all PVP player. I am 65,  been in the military, I do not enjoy violence anymore and play sci-fi games for exploration and travel. 

I played Eve for several years and made too much money. Played Elite Dangerous for a year and beginning to return.

I have spent thousands of hours since Alpha on DU and beginning to think I need to find something new. I have made my 100 mil fortune on DU and done everything that I find interesting but my interest is waning and my boredom growing.

 

Instead of trying to perfect what you have, try to at least KEEP your current player base by giving them new exciting gameplay and not putting everything into a schematic.

 

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1 hour ago, klobber said:

image.thumb.png.fecd84f5edb3509b7b592de4503ee7ff.png

lol you are kidding me, right ?
How long might it take until the prices are more realistic?

 

 

hey, that is now the playground for those playing the game a bit longer then you .. god thanks I started "my last Scanner" yesterday, its still running atm

those prices do what all have expected, it will be a catalysator to push big orgs & rich players**

 

**rich because ... no you cant do that, its gone

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2 hours ago, Palad1n said:

Nice to see another SWG refuge that understood and greatly appreciated the industry system. It hasn't been seen since that time anywhere and it's sorely missed. I believe devs with advanced degrees tend to over think everything and lose perspective on what fun means. 

 

I would pay 2x the monthly subscription to get a good MMO experience that implemented most (if not all) of the features that SWG had. 

SWG was my baby.  This is the closest game I've seen with a glimmer of hope it could match SWG's crafting prowess.  I wish these guys would hire Raph!  

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2 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

I take it back. Having seen how this has been implemented, this has no place even in a well developed game.

Its  C H R O N I C.

My meagre factory is all now inoperative, I haven't got the money for blueprints, or any fuel for that matter as my refinery doesnt work now, and literally the day before the announcement I'd invested most of my money in new industry.  I simply cannot be arsed to collect rocks to fill my nanopack and trail to the nearest market across rough terrain (going at at 5km ph in order not to damage my campactible, because things can now only be repaired a few times and parts are suddenly hideously expensive) to sell for fuck all.

As a newbie (2 months) I really felt like I was getting somewhere until this. I LOVED this game, it was fantastic escapism from reality; such a shame its been ruined - it honestly feels like a playground for established, rich players.- players whom have just been slightly slowed down and inconvenienced for a couple of weeks whereas its over for me.

 

G U T T E D.

 

 

 

 

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So now this is live, after checking, to get my crafting back to where it was where I could craft whatever I wanted it will take me until mid April next year just to train the talents for all machines.

On top of that there is now 4 of each type of industry, basic, uncommon, advanced and rare and 6 different types of each size assembly. Also uncommon, advanced and  rare versions of elements.

 

To make something you need the schematic..

 

Canopy Windshield Schematic S - 1 million,  L  -  16 million....you know this is a window right?

Schematic for Uncommon Military Atmos Engine - 25 million(Cheapest it seems).  Advanced -  116 million.

Warp Drive Schematic - 145 million. 

Warp Cell Schematic - 5 million.

Assembly Line L Schematic - 5 million( Basic)

Container L schematic - 4.3 million

Container M Schematic - 4,3 million.

and so on...

 

This is a Troll right?

 

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