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Combat trashing


XKentX

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Just now, blazemonger said:

Your argument would only be true if your thrust to weight ratio is higher than mine which generally will not be the case.

When I build an interceptor the entire purpose of the design to be manytimes faster than a freighter unless you intend on flying only empty freighters. 

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On 12/5/2020 at 10:15 PM, blazemonger said:

Once proper repair mechanics through elements are in game, I'm all for prohibiting entering build mode when engaged in combat or while moving even. At t he moment build mode is the only way to make (emergency) repairs and making what you can or can't do in build mode depend on the state of the construct woud take too many resources away from moer important work IMO.

 

Good point

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21 hours ago, XKentX said:

If the people you shoot down gonna trash all the valuables anyway then piracy is as good as just victims loosing their stuff.

 

This game needs CODE. alternative but with Mario heroes with catalyst 3 instead of throw away destroyers.

 

Then people wonder why other people become toxic.

 

What I asked for is NQ opinion on it. Is it intended game mechanic or not ?

 

Too be clear: the build mode is just fraction of it. The real value is the cargo not couple of basic space engine Ls.

Recently been listening to some history podcasts about pirates.  Mostly they took the ships and or anything light like spices.  Gold silver etc were too heavy and of no use to pirates who needed to be fast.

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On 12/5/2020 at 10:07 PM, Penwith said:

piracy is currently not even close to unviable.

Have you ever tried getting into PvP space looking for something to shoot at? If so, do you have a collection of victim ships that you ganked?

 

Viability can only be measured by action/fun you are getting from an activity relative to time you put in it. Currently piracy is tens and tens of hours of looking for something and not finding anything; because travel routes are vast, warp is becoming more and more prevalent, and there are no detection methods beyond the radar (or spying) so you're looking for the needle in a haysack.

 

It's truly irrelevant what happens when you can actually get into weapons range of a ship in a place they can't run away into safezone. Typically that happens once in a lifetime.

 

On 12/5/2020 at 10:07 PM, Penwith said:

 

Also, early on in EVE is not same as here.

 

I disagree with your analysis. Both games are about not flying what you can't afford to lose, and in both games there will be those who violate that rule and learn the bitter lesson. It takes similar amount of effort to reship into an early ship you invest in both games. You do 1 hour of mining and get pretty much any ship in the ship shop in DU.

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6 minutes ago, Olmeca_Gold said:

 Currently piracy is tens and tens of hours of looking for something and not finding anything; because travel routes are vast, warp is becoming more and more prevalent, and there are no detection methods beyond the radar (or spying) so you're looking for the needle in a haystack.

So that is more a reflection on the current state of the game as far as the player base and their getting into space than the tactic of tossing cargo overboard and junking one's ship. If a pirate wants to sit in space, fine.

 

But said pirate could go mine or do something else with that time, until sitting in space becomes more lucrative due to more people being in space more frequently. I know of several orgs whose members rarely ever leave Alioth. Yes, they are small, but I do not claim to know or speak for everyone.

 

They COULD leave, but they currently do not feel the need to nor are they willing to risk what they have.

 

I disagree with your disagreement, and so there we are. This game is much more planetbound, given that EVE is certainly not. Not unless they drastically changed that game in the few years since I last played. Yet, EVE can get away from it, because there is nearly always someplace else one can run to, whereas DU has a very limited sphere in which a player can go, and actually do something productive. Thus, the player who went well over 500cu out and tried to play, decided it was a mistake, at least according to his reddit post.

 

If piracy is not, as yet, all that lucrative, then perhaps would-be pirates could choose to do something else that is, until the numbers of players make it more so.

 

 

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8 hours ago, HellToupee said:

When I build an interceptor the entire purpose of the design to be many times faster than a freighter unless you intend on flying only empty freighters. 

 

Many times faster in space does not equate to many times faster in atmosphere. In space your mass and the amount of thrust your can get from your engines is pretty much the only factor that counts towards that. Your cross section has no relevance in this regard at all. 

 

To intercept a hauler which would use two L engines and have a mass of 650 tonnes, your interceptor which (let's assume) uses two S engines would need to have a mass of less than 18 Tonnes to be able to ever catch up  to the hauler (assuming the hauler does not run out of fuel. 

 

In space, catching a Hauler is far more about being able to accurately project where the hauler will end up and wait there than "catching up" which is unlikely to happen.


I get what you are trying to say, but I think you are over simplifying how space physics work. And I would hate to see DU go the route of most space games where space is pretty much a variation of atmosphere..

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AWW so the poor little piwarts wana gank people that cant fight back or escape and are complaining that they are destroying their stuff rather than letting the gankers get it lol good job to the combat trashers denial of loot is and must be a valid tactic the same as a pirate should be able to gank

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10 minutes ago, Penwith said:

So that is more a reflection on the current state of the game

I don't know in what other context we can talk about the viability of piracy if not the current state of the game. No one knows what'll happen a year from now.

 

15 minutes ago, Penwith said:

This game is much more planetbound, given that EVE is certainly not.

 

I didn't say there are no differences between Eve and DU so I don't know why you feel the need to refer to the many differences between the games.

 

You were talking about how new player ship losses are more punitive in DU, and how this is a reason for NQ to not encourage piracy. I think new player ship losses cost about similar amounts of time in both games.

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1 minute ago, Olmeca_Gold said:

I don't know in what other context we can talk about the viability of piracy if not the current state of the game. No one knows what'll happen a year from now.

 

 

I didn't say there are no differences between Eve and DU so I don't know why you feel the need to refer to the many differences between the games.

 

You were talking about how new player ship losses are more punitive in DU, and how this is a reason for NQ to not encourage piracy. I think new player ship losses cost about similar amounts of time in both games.

Yes, you declare the lot of a pirate being essentially a not of time spent towards little or no gain. My response speaks to that being due to the numbers of players in a paid beta, instead of those that would be expected in a full release. If a player wants to be a pirate in a game where relatively few people venture off into space in the time they (the pirate) is online, that is their choice. Not one that I'd make, but certainly one they can make.

 

The differences matter, in this case especially, because the loss of a space ship in EVE occurs in the realm of where the player exists within that game. There isn't, or at least wasn't, a planet based arena where the player could build his/her base (although planet mining and its infrastructure did exist) and spend the entirety of their play time on the surface.

 

In DU, the basic ships are not spaceships, not without significant overhaul and at least a basic knowledge of how to fix them to be so.  Hence, the majority of time that a new player will spend their time, until and unless they have help or discover it on their own, will be on the surface of Sanctuary and then Alioth, having never ventured into space on their own, except by shuttle (which is not truly an experience in space travel, as we know).

 

So, while acquiring a new space ship in EVE may take roughly an hour of mining, and the same may well be true in DU, the sphere in which players experience both games is not the same. In EVE, the player resides on a space ship, and in DU they do not, except when traveling. Were industrial elements allowed to operate on dynamic cores, this would be slightly different, but as they are not, players must start on the surface of a planet and then proceed into space.

 

These differences matter, and while you and I may be more on the same level of understanding, those reading these posts down the road may not be.

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26 minutes ago, Penwith said:

My response speaks to that being due to the numbers of players in a paid beta, instead of those that would be expected in a full release.

It's not my prediction that piracy would be viable under current mechanics with player numbers of a full release. Improvements like warp bubbles and webifiers could change that. Still, I think ship deletion is too powerful a mechanic that'd also kill the viability of piracy. Perhaps not immediately, but 6 months down the road (once everyone learns that's the best way to punish/discourage pirates).

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Just now, blazemonger said:

 

Many times faster in space does not equate to many times faster in atmosphere. In space your mass and the amount of thrust your can get from your engines is pretty much the only factor that counts towards that. Your cross section has no relevance in this regard at all. 

 

To intercept a hauler which would use two L engines and have a mass of 650 tonnes, your interceptor which (let's assume) uses two S engines would need to have a mass of less than 18 Tonnes to be able to ever catch up  to the hauler (assuming the hauler does not run out of fuel. 

 

In space, catching a Hauler is far more about being able to accurately project where the hauler will end up and wait there than "catching up" which is unlikely to happen.


I get what you are trying to say, but I think you are over simplifying how space physics work. And I would hate to see DU go the route of most space games where space is pretty much a variation of atmosphere..

No ones talking about atmosphere, none of my combat ships are even capable of entering atmosphere the atmo elements are deadweight.

 

The discussion was in context of the removal of speed limit in which case catching the hauling would fall down to acceleration advantage you would no longer need to project where the hauler would end up and simply run them down, and no we don't have small engines on interceptors we have large and XL, even my little lightweight scout fighters are packing mediums.

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8 minutes ago, Olmeca_Gold said:

It's not my prediction that piracy would be viable under current mechanics with player numbers of a full release. Improvements like warp bubbles and webifiers could change that. Still, I think ship deletion is too powerful a mechanic that'd also kill the viability of piracy. Perhaps not immediately, but 6 months down the road (once everyone learns that's the best way to punish/discourage pirates).

I'm not against pirates. The game would be pointless without them. We need a balance. Maybe there could be an element/weapon that could deactivate the ability to destroy a ship, container or element, and this needed to be link's to a gunners module in place of a gun or 2 guns?

 

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4 hours ago, Buck_Rogers said:

I'm not against pirates. The game would be pointless without them. We need a balance. Maybe there could be an element/weapon that could deactivate the ability to destroy a ship, container or element, and this needed to be link's to a gunners module in place of a gun or 2 guns?

 

No, this is where org vs org combats will bring more meaningfulness to the efforts of mining and industry, but I see what you are trying to say. I'm not a pirate and have no inclination to ever be one, but I allow that others do get a thrill out of doing so.

 

Instead of a weapon that gives someone else control over your ship and when you can destroy elements you own, there's an easier solution.

 

When containers take damage, they have an increasing change of having cargo escape into space. So, the greater percentage of damage to the container, the greater chance of each piece of cargo flying out the gaping hole.

 

With this, the cargo should take on the same bearing of travel and velocity as the hauler (or target ship), speeding off into the vastness of space unless picked up by the pirate or someone who lucks upon it floating by them.

 

In such instances, the pirate(s) could either keep after the ship, and likely lose sight of the now free cargo, or go after the cargo. A smart hauler pilot would then plot a new course, creating distance and therefore choices for his antagonist(s) to choose from.

 

Yes, the debris should show up on radar, but I'd suggest at a much more proximate range, perhaps at half or a quarter of normal radar range.

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On 12/5/2020 at 4:11 AM, Mordgier said:

True - but by the same token, many would in fact hope the pirates just take the high value cargo and leave them with their not very valuable to the pirates but exceptionally valuable to the merchants lives....

 

This is why in EVE we would try to ransom ships once we had them in a bubble. We both knew that it was usually more profitable for me and you to just pay me off.

 

DU does not have tackling mechanics so such finesse isn't an option. 

 

So yes - throwing shit overboard is fine - but there do need to be better mechanics.

 

 

I hope you still popped them if they paid the ransom.

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11 minutes ago, Mamba_Lev said:

I hope you still popped them if they paid the ransom.

Nope. Never.

 

Why would I do that?  It's just bad business. I preferred ransoms over loot scraps. Kill mails are fun and all but they don't pay for eve subs...

 

I have been on the other end of it as well and paid and got left alone.

 

 

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A lot of people here are confuseing the terms pirate, militant and griefer. Pirates typically irl did not go around sinking every vessel they came across or slaughtering the crews of ships they took. All that does is ensure the crews will fight to the bitter end. In most cases if a pirate flew the jolly rodger and the cargo ship surrendered there would be a minimum of destruction and often none at all.

 

Granted there were times where the red flag was flown but in every case the crew KNEW they would be killed and would do everything in their power to fight back upto and including burning/sinking their own ships. Or the pirates would only raise the red flag after the merchant resisted.

 

This is because your typical pirate knew if they let the crews and ships go but took the cargo they could rob that ship again later many times over and they were more likely to get the cargo without loss of life. Hell even the crews and ship owners typically didnt mind as much, sure they may lose pay and money. But they and their ship was around to try again later. And in many cases even if you lost 2 cargos out of 3 the 3rd would bring enough profit to cover the 2 lost ships depending on the cargo of course.

 

Militants go about this diffrently. in most cases in modern times a crew will scuttle a ship rather then allow it to be captured and studied by the enemy or both sides want to destroy the other ship entirely to deprive the other side of a resource and cost them more to replace it.

 

Then you have griefers who could care less if the game is killed off. They simply want to kill hurt and destroy everything around them. Blow up a guild hall that took months to build? thats halarious to them. Destroy ships and take them and the cargo? also halarious and fun. Destroy landscapeing and put up walls of ugly ass dirt and floating griefer cubes or warp nets to blow up warping ships? all is fun and fair.

 

You can tell this sort because they are the ones who get angry that your "casual care bears" have found a way to fight back or who get angry at anything PvE or that doesnt force pvp at every turn. I.E scuttleing the ship and destroying the cargo when you decide to force us into a corner with no options or wanting safe zones restricted to a single tile and 4k above the surface at MOST and preferably no safe zones at all.

 

Honestly i think destroying cargo and parts is perfectly fine. You want my cargo or my ship? then you either give me a good reason to hand it over that wont cost me everything. Or kill me fast enough i cant sabatoge my own ship to ruin YOUR fun which is halarious to me. Sucks when the shoe is on the other foot dont it?

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