Territory defense?

[Daphne Jones]

OK, so JC has said that if you own a territory and own, say, 5 territories around it (touching, I assume), that center territory is safe until an enemy reduces the number you own around it.

 

So, I'm wondering how this will work exactly.

 

Do the tiles have to all be owned by the same entity? What if my tile is surrounded by org-mates (which is the case now and I expect that to be the norm for development of a "nation")? Am I still protected? What if the surrounding tiles are owned by friends? Random players who are not hostile? Will an attacker have to get permission from at least two adjacent tile owners to attack a tile?

 

If you're answering this and you're not NQ, please make clear that you're speculating or link your source. Thanks.

[XKentX]

Speculating:

 

It can be that the exponential price raise is the price of defense so if you want defense you need to make all the terries same-owner and pay the price. This makes sense as price of terri units is just pocket change.

 

I cannot link a source but it was said that "defense will have advantage over offence" and it's logical. If you want to mount an assault on someone, be prepared to fight on their terms. On the other hand it's logical that the defense mechanic shouldn't be easily abused by a person with 20 alts dropping terri units on all planets every other day (as they are cheap to make and will be hard to destroy) so he can use it as temporary safe heaven while it is reinforced. (They will most likely introduce reinforcement similar to eve, so you don't need to defend your terri at 5am).

 

NQ seems to take a lot from eve-online(and I think it's good as I like eve). So you may get more feeling about it if you have played it. Don't think you will get any info from NQ as they don't 100% know it yet  themselves.

[Mordgier]

Speculating: NQ doesn't know how it'll work either.

[Bobbie]

.

[Underhook]

The impression I got from interviews was that who owned the tile next to you was not important (so long as they are not the attacker).  The idea being that being in the centre of a city is a pretty safe place and it would be a huge undertaking to take a city.  However living on the fringes is less secure.

[Mordgier]

On 11/30/2020 at 4:04 PM, Bobbie said:

It's funny because when NQ informs us about an upcoming feature, people complain how they didn't ask the community first. But then when they ask the community about something, those very same people complain that NQ is "making it up as they go"...

 

On topic: I'm pretty sure (speculating) that it only applies to neighboring territories of the same owner. It's supposed to be a concerted effort to create a degree of security and stability in a given region. In other words, organized.

 

I'm all for NQ taking feedback and suggestions - in fact if they did that - would not have the sad state of current pvp or mining. Yet they're not the ones asking here. This is just the community talking about what they wish NQ did and NQ not at the table.

 

On topic - we have no idea what exactly is even required to capture a territory - and to me that is sort of the elephant in the room. 

 

JC did mention in an interview that only outside hexes will be attackable from a claimed hostile hex. Which as I understand suggests that it is not relevant who owns what hexes - as long as I don't own a hex adjacent to you, I cannot attack.

 

What exactly 'attack' means, I have no idea. What are we attacking? What is the victory condition and the loss condition?

 

None of these are defined and everything that I can speculate on sounds horrific. Do we attack the TCU? Horrible - I hide mine so deep you'll have to fall for 10 minutes straight to get to it. Make TCU above ground. I shall encase it in an L core that is entirely made of steel. And surrounded by several other steel L cores. Just for laughs. Also - still 10 minutes underground.

 

I don't see any of the mechanics in the current game as remotely plausible for theory crafting how territory control will work.

[Daphne Jones]

11 hours ago, XKentX said:

Speculating:

 

It can be that the exponential price raise is the price of defense so if you want defense you need to make all the terries same-owner and pay the price. This makes sense as price of terri units is just pocket change.

 

I cannot link a source but it was said that "defense will have advantage over offence" and it's logical. If you want to mount an assault on someone, be prepared to fight on their terms. On the other hand it's logical that the defense mechanic shouldn't be easily abused by a person with 20 alts dropping terri units on all planets every other day (as they are cheap to make and will be hard to destroy) so he can use it as temporary safe heaven while it is reinforced. (They will most likely introduce reinforcement similar to eve, so you don't need to defend your terri at 5am).

 

NQ seems to take a lot from eve-online(and I think it's good as I like eve). So you may get more feeling about it if you have played it. Don't think you will get any info from NQ as they don't 100% know it yet  themselves.

One thing I'm particularly wondering is if the multi-billion quanta cost of an org establishing a national territory is NQ's goal. That of course would agree with your conclusion that it must be single owner.

 

 

[Daphne Jones]

So I guess you can place a TCU underground? I had speculated that that wouldn't be allowed, because otherwise it would be too easy to make it inaccessible to attack.

 

I guess they could have another victory condition like removing all defenders from the hex... (requires destroying all res nodes, which may also be very difficult.) It may be necessary to suspend RDMS land restrictions (i.e. digging) while combat is active.

 

NQ has a big job ahead of it.

[le_souriceau]

7 hours ago, Mordgier said:

I don't see any of the mechanics in the current game as remotely plausible for theory crafting how territory control will work.

Because there is probably none right now -- beyond some whiteboards and, I hope, ultra-early stage internal prototypes.

 

Root of all our problems, generaly, that NQ spend so much time on making game tech stapples to actualy work (stuggle is still ungoing, with PvP desyncs and other painful issues), that they simply were left with very little time and resources for balance/features things we so hungry for. This why their interest in communication with us always... was kinda compomised: like there is no sense to listen people ordering you fancy pizza, when you have realisticly only 1$ frozen (4 years ago) one and microwave. Like they probably glad to make us happy, but they can't. At least right now.

 

Its honestly aways conflict point for me. Intellectualy I understand (or guess) NQ realities and probably they doing OK in them, in terms of survival and slow growth. Even good in some cases. But passionate, player part of me, often is in pissed-off volatile trigger state.

[UbioZur]

4 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

So I guess you can place a TCU underground?

Yes you can! I know that by experience, it's where I put mine so I have a full overground tile to work on.

[blazemonger]

16 hours ago, Mordgier said:

Speculating: NQ doesn't know how it'll work either.

That's no speculation as JC has pretty much said that NQ has not even started implementing this and is still in the "consideration" phase where they throw ideas around. They have some ideas but there is no consolidated plan, let alone initial work done on implementing this.

 

I'd not expect anything regarding TW until late spring 2021 at best. The coming patch will not have anything related to TW, it will actually not bring anything new, just iterate on existing features. First sign of new features according to JC will be around March and I expect that to be power management as it wil be a requirement for TW. So fundamentally, nothing new will happen in game until then. and yes, while there is no facts to support this, I'd say that is a reasonable expectation more than speculation.

 

Burying your TU I expect will be nerfed eventually for sure but as NQ shackled themselves by committing to not wipe unless they absolutely have to and they really can't change the rules on existing constructs (which is why existing industry will not be impacted by the massive changes to Industry I pretty much expect will arrive on the next patch based on what JC has said in recent interviews).. If you set up your territory with buried TU now, there is little NQ can do to nerf that later as they cut off their toolset to allow them to do this .... Unless NQ backpaddles and wipes on the patch which brings TW (which I honestly can see happen).

 

[XKentX]

They can change current industry, they will add new one, let the old one work for about a month and then make it t1 only. 

You should upgrade your industry in that month.

 

Ground wipe is even more likely, they will wipe everything and you need to reclaim it and get magic blueprints...

Look at roadmap at login, how they are supposed to do the "better ore distribution" and biomea thing without ground wipe ?

 

What they should keep is our wealth and skill points not placement.

 

[SpaceGamer]

12 hours ago, blazemonger said:

First sign of new features according to JC will be around March and I expect that to be power management as it wil be a requirement for TW. So fundamentally, nothing new will happen in game until then. and yes, while there is no facts to support this, I'd say that is a reasonable expectation more than speculation.

 

 

 

JC has named many things that are coming, "Before the end of the year" Lets Talk Dual Universe ? EP3 - JC Baillie - CEO Novaquark ☕️ - YouTube

[GraXXoR]

In other words. Let’s come back to this when JCB actually provides some (semi)concrete information. 
 

if this were a request for input then sure, we could make a 100 page thread, but as it is, it will just turn into “YATC Thread” where we expound upon theories and propose “solutions” (often preceded by the word “just”) after a couple of minutes’ thought. 

[Daphne Jones]

8 hours ago, XKentX said:

They can change current industry, they will add new one, let the old one work for about a month and then make it t1 only. 

You should upgrade your industry in that month.

 

Ground wipe is even more likely, they will wipe everything and you need to reclaim it and get magic blueprints...

Look at roadmap at login, how they are supposed to do the "better ore distribution" and biomea thing without ground wipe ?

 

What they should keep is our wealth and skill points not placement.

 

Fortunately they already said they won't wipe. If they wipe my base they'll have to provide much better BP deployment tools. My base is currently 13 L cores aligned to voxel perfect precision and deployed over water. I couldn't restore that from BPs on my best day in my whole life... not with the tools we have now anyway. I can't even guess how a static core will be oriented when I deploy from BP.

[blazemonger]

8 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Fortunately they already said they won't wipe.

There is no statement from NQ which says they _won't_ wipe.

 

They statement is that they have no intention to wipe but will if they have no way to avoid it. IMO that point will arrive in the next 6-8 months and likely at or close to the introduction of Territory warfare. I also expect that the changes in Industry which will come in the next patch may well be impacted for the players by the early dilution of T4/T5 ores and as a result drive up prices on a pretty massive scale which will in effect benefit the big orgs (as expected, if not intended).

 

 

Personally I hope NQ come to their senses and work towards a patch early summer where they will introduce the biome updates after all, bring in Territory warfare, balance energy management and will have mostly been able to balance and debug the core mechanics in the game. That will be the time a wipe is virtually impossible to avoid IMO and it would be an awesome opportunity for the game to get a solid, ground level fresh start.

 

I really hope NQ wil have the balls to wipe with talent points being returned to the pool, normal blueprints given out for existing constructs but otherwise do a full wipe of the world. It will allow the game to restart over the course of 6-8 months from there as NQ works towards release early 2022.. Will some leave? sure but most of the "I will leave the game" crowd will just start over like the rest of us and we will get a better and more balanced game out of it all in the end. A game which will be inviting with opportunities for new players and existing players alike.

[HangerHangar]

25 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

There is no statement from NQ which says they _won't_ wipe.

 

They statement is that they have no intention to wipe but will if they have no way to avoid it. IMO that point will arrive in the next 6-8 months and likely at or close to the introduction of Territory warfare. I also expect that the changes in Industry which will come in the next patch may well be impacted for the players by the early dilution of T4/T5 ores and as a result drive up prices on a pretty massive scale which will in effect benefit the big orgs (as expected, if not intended).

 

 

Personally I hope NQ come to their senses and work towards a patch early summer where they will introduce the biome updates after all, bring in Territory warfare, balance energy management and will have mostly been able to balance and debug the core mechanics in the game. That will be the time a wipe is virtually impossible to avoid IMO and it would be an awesome opportunity for the game to get a solid, ground level fresh start.

 

I really hope NQ wil have the balls to wipe with talent points being returned to the pool, normal blueprints given out for existing constructs but otherwise do a full wipe of the world. It will allow the game to restart over the course of 6-8 months from there as NQ works towards release early 2022.. Will some leave? sure but most of the "I will leave the game" crowd will just start over like the rest of us and we will get a better and more balanced game out of it all in the end. A game which will be inviting with opportunities for new players and existing players alike.

You don’t want this to be known as a “wipe-ing” game.   This radically changes how players approach your game from it being a normal MMO, to one that has an insurge of players that join after every wipe to quit in a week or two when they realize they aren’t “winning the round”.

[blazemonger]

Where am I making this a wiping game?

Doing a wipe at the time you have mostly balanced the game mechanics and are actually ready for persistence is not a wiping game, it is sensible game development.

 

I am not advocating taking wipes lightly or even doing multiple wipes. But a wipe at a time where you can with some confidence expect to not need one anymore is a correct choice, not wiping while a game is unbalanced is also good IMO. But preemptively all but excluding a wipe because you put fear of players starting a riot and/or (threatening to) leave over your ability to progress and balance your game and make it better is a bad choice and that is what NQ is doing IMO. 

[XKentX]

12 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Fortunately they already said they won't wipe. If they wipe my base they'll have to provide much better BP deployment tools. My base is currently 13 L cores aligned to voxel perfect precision and deployed over water. I couldn't restore that from BPs on my best day in my whole life... not with the tools we have now anyway. I can't even guess how a static core will be oriented when I deploy from BP.

"No wipe" for me means no progress wipe. Like no wealth wipe, no constructs wipe no quanta/skillpoints wipe.

 

How are they supposed to change biomes without regenerating the planet surface ?

 

I think they will do it closer to release so once the game launches and many new players come in the don't come into an all barren, holes everywhere world but into a pretty fresh one.

[XKentX]

2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Where am I making this a wiping game?

Doing a wipe at the time you have mostly balanced the game mechanics and are actually ready for persistence is not a wiping game, it is sensible game development.

 

I am not advocating taking wipes lightly or even doing multiple wipes. But a wipe at a time where you can with some confidence expect to not need one anymore is a correct choice, not wiping while a game is unbalanced is also good IMO. But preemptively all but excluding a wipe because you put fear of players starting a riot and/or (threatening to) leave over your ability to progress and balance your game and make it better is a bad choice and that is what NQ is doing IMO. 

If they wipe "just because we now have better balance" I will stop playing personally. I started playing only because they told there will not be a wipe. I would not play otherwise and promise like this broken once is enough for me to search for another project to throw my money at.

 

[blazemonger]

Except there is no commitment from NQ that there will not be anymore wipes.

 

You also over simplify my response. There is damage being done to the game due to exploits, unexpected events, bugs, oversights and more. If NQ can repair all of that without a wipe then sure, that is by far preferable. Besides me having the opinion that some of this will not be repairable and will require a wipe, NQ is to blame for the incorrect expectations and understanding of some of the player base on their position on wipes and IMO their position is simply not viable as having an expectation there will not be wipes for a development like DU in  the state it is in, which really is early alpha at best regardless of the label NQ puts on it, is just unrealistic.

[Daphne Jones]

54 minutes ago, XKentX said:

"No wipe" for me means no progress wipe. Like no wealth wipe, no constructs wipe no quanta/skillpoints wipe.

 

How are they supposed to change biomes without regenerating the planet surface ?

 

I think they will do it closer to release so once the game launches and many new players come in the don't come into an all barren, holes everywhere world but into a pretty fresh one.

JC has actually addressed this pretty clearly. They aren't changing biomes on the current planet... they're improving the textures only.

 

They didn't wipe after the catastrophic rebalance in pre-beta. It's not clear what kind of disaster would lead to a wipe, but we're certainly no where near it.