Jump to content

DevBlog: Element Destruction - DUscussion thread


Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

1) You need to crush your stuff several times before its totaly "die".

2) Most of learning happens (for most reasonable people) on pretty basic, cheap ships.

3) You have your everyday 100 k of social security just for this.

4) If you need more -- earn it by in-game activities. Or craft new stuff yourself. What the problem?

5) You already have all renewables newbies may need for bare basics -- rocks on ground.

6) And I fail do undestand logic of your argument -- how some distant (and pvp-ridden) renewable asteroids will help newbie who, by your concept, cant fly without constant crushing? 

 

So, generaly you totaly blowing it out of proportion and stretching problem. I doubt it will be even minor issue for most new players.

 

Really?

 

1) 3 times. 3 times is what it takes to kill an element. I crashed my light space hauler way more than that just learning to land properly, and that's not mentioning the parts that burn up going in or out of atmo. That's not a good argument.

2) You're making the assumption that cheap now means cheap later. When inflation due to scarcity of resources and elements is in play, it won't be cheap to replace parts.

3) When you're just starting out, that's all you have. Again, if I was forced to spend money on elements in early game, I wouldn't have continued to play.

4) This is a false argument. Starting out, you have no skills, the started speeder, and 100k to your name. It takes time to build the skills, resources and equipment, unless you join an org right away.

5) All tiers need to be renewable. This is for the longevity of the game. It has to happen, or people will get frustrated/bored and quit. No subs = no game. Get it yet?

 

So no, you're just making excuses why you think it's a grand idea to destroy stuff for the sake of destroying stuff. It's bad policy, and you fail to look at the bigger picture.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 219
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

We will need a renewable source of ore if elements are destroyed. We need to fix bugs before adding more features / annoyances to the game. The number 1 reason I crash is because of bugs. Have fun guy

I have yet to crash due to server problems tho since week 1. All my crashes were me misjudging my trajectory. Any server disconnects suspend your ship for now anyways.

Naunet running by with a quick edit for clarity: Element Destruction will be applied to all damages sustained, both in and outside of PvP battles.

Posted Images

17 minutes ago, NoRezervationz said:

It takes time to build the skills, resources and equipment...

This is how most games actualy played, no?

17 minutes ago, NoRezervationz said:

Get it yet?

Yep, I get your entitlement/learned helplessness tendences that I'm not in position to fix. I surrender.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

This is how most games actualy played, no?

Yes and no. A lot of games don't throw you in fire right away, and give you time to build what the game needs/allows/wants.

3 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

Yep, I get your entitlement/learned helplessness tendences that I'm not in position to heal. I surrender.

If I'm paying money, I expect certain things. Yep, I'm paying for the entitlement to play the game without being artificially hindered by crappy policy. If it gets bad enough, I'll take my money elsewhere and assume the devs don't need it. This is exactly what happened with Eve. I spent a LOT of cash and time on that game, and then they started threatening my stuff with guaranteed loss. I said "No thanks" and quit. I'll do it here just the same.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The help-Support Channel is going to get busier with people asking to have their ships repaired/restored because of server lag crashes. This will also probably be abused by people who just want their stuff back and will try to dupe the system.

 

The sheer amount of time it takes to craft some items, I think some people will just give up. It's ok if you have an Org to help with resupply but people that prefer a more solo type of gameplay are in for a rough time.

 

What happens to talent points spent on improving repair skills or the time and resources spent crafting repair units? These are far less appealing/useful with this system and the points may feel wasted.

 

Then there's new players, their first ship, taken a month to get the mats together, not used to flying and boom, their ship is destroyed and they're back to square one.

 

Nice idea further down the line but I think some of the creases need to be ironed out before this kind of thing goes live.  This is just funneling people into a specific playstyle, you must have an org or it will just be a grind, you must instantly be proficient at flying etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, NoRezervationz said:

Yes and no. A lot of games don't throw you in fire right away, and give you time to build what the game needs/allows/wants.

If I'm paying money, I expect certain things. Yep, I'm paying for the entitlement to play the game without being artificially hindered by crappy policy. If it gets bad enough, I'll take my money elsewhere and assume the devs don't need it. This is exactly what happened with Eve. I spent a LOT of cash and time on that game, and then they started threatening my stuff with guaranteed loss. I said "No thanks" and quit. I'll do it here just the same.

Element destruction was in the game, and it was always going to be In the game. If you weren't smart enough to figure that out, that's on you. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I still find it mighty peculiar that "scrap" in this game is not made up from broken parts of things that used to work. 

 

Oh, and what do "recyclers" do again, they certainly do not actually recycle anything ;)

 

Also, yes, there is a need to break the cube meta, and yes, the economy needs a lot more work to make it approximate anything functional, but why are we hearing about distractions away from the roadmap, instead of more progress towards the roadmap?

 

And don't tell me that's because they have one team working on new roadmap features and another team working on new features that aren't in the roadmap? 

 

Don't get me wrong, I like surprises, well, I like some surprises. Other surprises I hate. 

 

But when I get on a train, plane or bus and find out half way there that they are taking a long detour in a direction they didn't declare in advance, well, you can guess my reaction...

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, ShibbyGuy said:

So even If get shot and die,  the other opposing player that used resources and ammo for that haul won't get anything? I don't think so pal.

 

Hey, I got news for you pal. 

 

You have Zero rights to my stuff.

 

Don't matter how big your guns are. 

 

Don't matter how much you cry to NQ that they won't let you rob hard working people blind. 

 

And this new state changes nothing in relation to that. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Majestic said:

The help-Support Channel is going to get busier with people asking to have their ships repaired/restored because of server lag crashes. This will also probably be abused by people who just want their stuff back and will try to dupe the system.

 

The sheer amount of time it takes to craft some items, I think some people will just give up. It's ok bad if you have an Org to help with resupply but people that prefer a more solo type of gameplay are in for a rough time.

 

What happens to talent points spent on improving repair skills or the time and resources spent crafting repair units? These are far less appealing/useful with this system and the points may feel wasted.

 

Then there's new players, their first ship, taken a month to get the mats together, not used to flying and boom, their ship is destroyed and they're back to square one.

 

Nice idea further down the line but I think some of the creases need to be ironed out before this kind of thing goes live.  This is just funneling people into a specific playstyle, you must have an org or it will jusat be a grind, you must instantly be proficient at flying etc.

The discord support channel no longer teleport or repair anything for about a week now, they simply tell people to file a ticket so it’s investigated before anything is done, good luck with that. Also, any issues that are not thecnical in nature are referenced to the in-game admins channel, which, if any are there, results in getting referred back to discord 90% of the time. In about 16 hours of gameplay I saw 1 mod/admin in that channel for about 3 hours....

So it seems that NQ already cut the middle man before implementing this changes, I can’t wait to see what happens next.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am for it with a caveat fix the network/server/Software bugs. With 2 exceptions my big ship mishaps have been hitting something not loaded in (Towers anyone) landing underground and then getting pushed out gets the ship destroyed (slow loading of terren I guess) Mountains out of nowhere. I'm a builder/Miner If I have to budget for a ship every couple of runs I cannot stay competitive on pricing     

Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope NQ makes it so Destroyed Elements can be placed into a recycler and made into a limited number of scrap depending on it's initial ore requirements.

 

75% of original total T1 turned into its equivalent amount of scrap. 50% T2 , 25% T3. Or even 100% of all materials into scrap seeing as scrap can't be reused to build the element anyway.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

Element destruction was in the game, and it was always going to be In the game. If you weren't smart enough to figure that out, that's on you. 

PvP I can understand, crashes not so much. If they're going for realism, ok, but it's a game where people want to escape real life.

 

Also, it's on me where I spend my money. If the devs really don't want it, they can take the game in a direction I don't agree with.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Iorail said:

The discord support channel no longer teleport or repair anything for about a week now, they simply tell people to file a ticket so it’s investigated before anything is done, good luck with that.

 

You can thank your fellow players who abused the TP option and overloaded the support system on Discord where the tech support channel basically became a "get your free TP here" channel.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, blazemonger said:

 

You can thank your fellow players who abused the TP option and overloaded the support system on Discord where the tech support channel basically became a "get your free TP here" channel.

 

I have been very vocal about this since it started happening but it has always been the same, “ it will fine”, “no one is abusing this” kind of deal. At least they stop it, even if it was too late and they allow people to abuse it. It doesn’t matter now, there are bigger fish to fry now...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not sure if the way NQ wants to implement the element destruction is the best way, but I think it is a good direction when it comes to economy.

 

A lot of people seem to have a problem that newbies may lose one or two times they can repair an item due to bugs/lags/bad flying/whatever.
First: The tutorial could also give a new player like 3 speeders as "compacted blueprints" instead of one. No one will care because they are not worth much.
Second: This is still beta, so there are bugs. That is why it is called a beta.
Third: This is a real opportunity for actual emergent gameplay. Like make an org which helps newbros out when they are stranded and help them repair their ships. And if you think this is a ridiculous idea. In "Elite" you have the "Fuel Rats" which are there to help stranded explorers which are stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Fourth: This is also an opportunity to join an org. When I was playing there was simply no need to, because I could do anything I wanted to by myself. But if I am stranded somewhere I would need someone to help me out. 


Furthermore I think that the "PvP vs Builder" discussions in the playerbase are kind of weird and not healthy. In some posts people who do PvP are described as people with "bad morals" or something. And sometimes PvP is used basically in the same way as griefing.
This is a niche game and has huge competition. In my (limited) point of view it has to try to combine a lot of playstyles to have a critical player base to succeed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've read a lot of the replies here and I haven't seen people talking about the other big change mentioned:

 

Tier 2+ Elements and Industry Units

 

I feel like this addition won't solve the issue of engine-spamming on ships in the current game but this is a great addition to plan for the upcoming core unit element restrictions. However I fear that adding more expensive industry units won't solve the problem of infinite industry growth. Even if they are really expensive, crafting timers are still pretty low and there's not much else to do right now other than build a factory. With no increasing cost based on factory size it seems like time-to-craft will endlessly approach zero and crafted elements will still end up being priced at the cost of their ores(or less due to transportation cost). The energy system should fix this, so we'll have to wait for that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jsam333 said:

I've read a lot of the replies here and I haven't seen people talking about the other big change mentioned:

 

Tier 2+ Elements and Industry Units

 

I feel like this addition won't solve the issue of engine-spamming on ships in the current game but this is a great addition to plan for the upcoming core unit element restrictions. However I fear that adding more expensive industry units won't solve the problem of infinite industry growth. Even if they are really expensive, crafting timers are still pretty low and there's not much else to do right now other than build a factory. With no increasing cost based on factory size it seems like time-to-craft will endlessly approach zero and crafted elements will still end up being priced at the cost of their ores(or less due to transportation cost). The energy system should fix this, so we'll have to wait for that.

I don't think making Tier 2+ industry units will solve infinite industry problem or anything.

It will make industry harder to get to for new comers that don't have resources.

Industry magnates will just upgrade once and forget about it.

It makes even more capitalism. Whoever owns large capital benefits even more.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole noobs dieing thing is both a ligit issue and easily solveable. Just give newbs say a half dozen tokens that are BoP and repair element life to full. Just make them non tradeable, non craftable and restricted to the same conditions as compacting and boom. Noobs crashing problem solved and most people wont care if noobs get a life restore token only useful for scooters as noob ships are cheap as dirt.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The game needs to slow down the availability of bigger elements to new players in order for them to first learn how to fly smaller ships and encounter situations where using understanding of build helper will prepare them for bigger ships.

 

One of my objections against the whole "ship shop" idea was that by allowing experienced players to "donate" ships you put "ships with a manual" in to the hands of newbies.. Too many times I've seen noobs crash a hover because it's loaded up too heavy and they do not account for the time the construct takes to adjust height (and generally  fly too fast.

 

A big part of this is the talent tree which really is not in any way structured to support "normal" progression in flying ships like it does in EVE for example. In EVE bigger ships are gates and are often only available once certain skills have been trained allowing for the piloting of the ship in a somewhat "money proof" way while at the same time setting up the in game experience for the player. A new player should not be allowed to jump in a hauler with 200T cargo (and be expected to understand the required techniques to break orbit and/or re-entry and safe landing on a planet with twice the gravity)

 

A big problem is the lack of supporting mechanics and the requirement to gain actual experience before getting access to bigger/better/faster .. That only leads to frustration and disengagement.

 

And yes, that means I am advocating putting access to bigger elements and driving bigger loads behind talents combined with the tutorials/missions to learn these. Besides providing better preparation and building experience, it also gives new players a longer path of activities while they grow into the game.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 In the real world, most purchased goods will inevitably need to be replaced. This helps to fuel the economy by creating a steady demand of goods.

This argument is false.

Space industry is going into opposite direction. Trying to maximize usage times for engines etc.

 

Creating consumer demand by producing disposable goods is reason for current waste and pollution problems.

This is really redline for me. @NQ - game devs. Please do not implement this culture into this game. Game should be about future of humankind.

Also I'm totally not interested about real world problems. I play this game to forget all the sorrow and problems of real life. 
If you bring those into this game they will constantly remind me about RL problems and I get bad feelings and don't play this game anymore.
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, kulkija said:

This argument is false.

Space industry is going into opposite direction. Trying to maximize usage times for engines etc.


This is really redline for me. @NQ - game devs. Please do not implement this culture into this game. Game should be about future of humankind.

 

Yes and no, while we see a move toward re-usable components in rockets sure, there is still a of maintenance required to refurbish these to be ready for use again. That turnaround time will get shorter but will never go away.

 

NQ is doing what NQ does and that is choosing the easy way out of a "problem" because they do not have the resources to work out an actual solution to the problem.

To be honest the current mechanic is flawed to begin with as magically restoring an element to full health by somehow adding/applying "scrap" to it is at best a shortcut.

 

 

Here's a better solution IMO:

Elements can be patched up when damaged, destroyed elements can only be removed/replaced

 

Damaged elements

  • Players can craft "repair kits" which are tailored to the purpose for which they are used (engines/airfoil/adjustors/furniture.. etc)
  • Repair kits will restore a damaged element to enough health to "get home" where the element needs to be removed and replaced.
  • A repair assembly element of the correct size will then be able to repair the damaged element with new components.
  • A repair assemble element can be fitted to a dynamic construct with M or L core to allow en-route repair as long as the needed components are in store on the construct.
  • A patched up element is a most 80% functional and has less HP and so is at higher risk of getting destroyed. This creates the requirement to have it actually repaired and not left as-is.

 

 

Destroyed elements

  • Players can remove these elements and replace them
  • Destroyed elements can be recycled for a return of some of the original components/resources

 

 

Additional elements

Mobile Nano Crafter which can craft any T1/T2 component up to L size and any T1 element up to M size at less efficiency/speed than industry. It can also craft Space Fuel. Can be placed on an M or L dynamic core.

 

The purpose of this element is to provide a "patch up" availability to be able to make it home and can craft repair kits.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

Yes and no, while we see a move toward re-usable components in rockets sure, there is still a of maintenance required to refurbish these to be ready for use again. That turnaround time will get shorter but will never go away.

 

NQ is doing what NQ does and that is choosing the easy way out of a "problem" because they do not have the resources to work out an actual solution to the problem.

To be honest the current mechanic is flawed to begin with as magically restoring an element to full health by somehow adding/applying "scrap" to it is at best a shortcut.

 

 

Here's a better solution IMO:

Elements can be patched up when damaged, destroyed elements can only be removed/replaced

 

Damaged elements

  • Players can craft "repair kits" which are tailored to the purpose for which they are used (engines/airfoil/adjustors/furniture.. etc)
  • Repair kits will restore a damaged element to enough health to "get home" where the element needs to be removed and replaced.
  • A repair assembly element of the correct size will then be able to repair the damaged element with new components.
  • A repair assemble element can be fitted to a dynamic construct with M or L core to allow en-route repair as long as the needed components are in store on the construct.
  • A patched up element is a most 80% functional and has less HP and so is at higher risk of getting destroyed. This creates the requirement to have it actually repaired and not left as-is.

 

 

Destroyed elements

  • Players can remove these elements and replace them
  • Destroyed elements can be recycled for a return of some of the original components/resources

 

 

Additional elements

Mobile Nano Crafter which can craft any T1/T2 component up to L size and any T1 element up to M size at less efficiency/speed than industry. It can also craft Space Fuel. Can be placed on an M or L dynamic core.

 

The purpose of this element is to provide a "patch up" availability to be able to make it home and can craft repair kits.

 

 

 

Thanks @blazemonger for excellent post.
This is what it must be.

NQs current plan will break more gameplay and already working features as well as planned ones than it will create.
By implementing this well will create interesting content.

My biggest concern about this NQs proposal is unfinished planning (gameplay design) which do not take all consequences into account and adds extra grinding (even more mining).

Also if problem is unhealthy markets or economy, or goal is to improve markets, this is not the answer. Maybe right questions should be asked first.

Is there a problem at markets. If yes then what it is?


 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...