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DevBlog: Element Destruction - DUscussion thread

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This destruction principle forces DU economy to "Linear economy model"

Linear economy is killing our planet IRL

 

Mankind must go to Circular economy to survive.

 

I think DU must follow this principle and allow full Circular economy.

 

References:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_economy

https://medium.com/thebeammagazine/redesigning-the-economy-from-linear-to-circular-and-from-me-to-we-95e418fd0193

https://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/explore/the-circular-economy-in-detail

https://kenniskaarten.hetgroenebrein.nl/en/knowledge-map-circular-economy/how-is-a-circular-economy-different-from-a-linear-economy/

 

 

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"Note that this is a first step. We may introduce other forms of degradation in the future, possibly impacting Element performance. Another important thing to note is that when an Element of type Container is fully destroyed, everything it contains is destroyed as well. This includes all types of fuel and ammo."

 

That basicaly means that pvp will be pointless, 90% time you destroy almost whole ship before you can capture it so what are the chances that you will actually be able to loot cargo ?

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2 minutes ago, kulkija said:

This destruction principle forces DU economy to "Linear economy model"

Linear economy is killing our planet IRL

 

Mankind must go to Circular economy to survive.

 

I think DU must follow this principle and allow full Circular economy.

 

References:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_economy

https://medium.com/thebeammagazine/redesigning-the-economy-from-linear-to-circular-and-from-me-to-we-95e418fd0193

https://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/explore/the-circular-economy-in-detail

https://kenniskaarten.hetgroenebrein.nl/en/knowledge-map-circular-economy/how-is-a-circular-economy-different-from-a-linear-economy/

In a finite world, as DU is right now, yes. Will DU stay as finite as now?

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2 minutes ago, Drtthelunghar said:

"Note that this is a first step. We may introduce other forms of degradation in the future, possibly impacting Element performance. Another important thing to note is that when an Element of type Container is fully destroyed, everything it contains is destroyed as well. This includes all types of fuel and ammo."

 

That basicaly means that pvp will be pointless, 90% time you destroy almost whole ship before you can capture it so what are the chances that you will actually ba able to loot cargo ?

If you read correctly pretty high. It takes a container 5 times to be "fully destroyed". If you are just a hauler and get killed, the pirates will repair the container and take the loot inside. Hope that clarifies that for you.

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It would be better if this counter decreased the max HP of the element (Counter = 0 should result in max 1HP ) instead of rendering it useless after some time, bc it could result in a massive decrease in PVP fights , bc the risk of beeing unable to replace the elements is very high and many raiders might not be able to sustain their ships with that mechanic.

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6 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

If you read correctly pretty high. It takes a container 5 times to be "fully destroyed". If you are just a hauler and get killed, the pirates will repair the container and take the loot inside. Hope that clarifies that for you.

Thanks for clarification, when I read that I understood that if the container is destroyed everything inside is lost (regardless of if you can still repair it or not). 

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16 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

If you read correctly pretty high. It takes a container 5 times to be "fully destroyed". If you are just a hauler and get killed, the pirates will repair the container and take the loot inside. Hope that clarifies that for you.

How easy looting should be?

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1 hour ago, NQ-Naunet said:

Naunet running by with a quick edit for clarity: Element Destruction will be applied to all damages sustained, both in and outside of PvP battles.

Kinda worried about the "outside PVP" part
It happens waaaay too often in the state the game is now that players crash they'r ships for reasons they're not responsible for.
Like lags, game crashes and so on. Before doing that you should focus on optimization first i think. I mean i'm not a dev...But i don't have a bad rig and it happened specially at the markets that i lagged into stuff.
Or having game crashes like 1000m above ground, having neat L engines wich need time to heat up....

And about the PVP aspect: Wouldn't it be good to implement shields in the same update?

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2 hours ago, Pleione said:

Market bots need to be completely removed.  We will never have a supply & demand player based economy while they exist.

Also, when a market bot buys ore I think that ore is lost to the game unless people are buying ore from the bots, maybe they do.  I never buy ore from th market though

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42 minutes ago, Kurosawa said:

it could create a little meta game where people try and fly with equipment that is on the last or 2nd to last life to prevent ze enermy from gaining stuff

And that's a valid tactic If they want to employ it. The flip side is, one wrong move and a simple crash could lead to total cargo loss, whereas if they used a pristine container, they could repair up and be on their way.  That's a big deal if you hauling 20mil or more worth of ore/parts.  But the most important part, is it gives the person choices and those choices and have positive or negative effects. Which is a good thing.

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            Good changes (mostly).  What is to stop me from making a small cross section L core with L weapons? Because I can see that being meta. IMHO core sizes need some built in invisible cross section to them that prevents the behavior I have described.  NQ I am a 16+ year EVE veteran that played at the very edge of mechanics even personally forcing the developer to change there game due to my creations. Let me make something abundantly clear WE , I will abuse mechanics to the absolute degree if we think it will give us an advantage over our opponents because winning is more fun than losing. So when you make changes that effect PVP or the economy you really need to have a think on how players can and will abuse your changes. Because I promise you I and WE will. I am going to shift to L cores with small cross sections and L weapons and my ship will be more potent than an XS , S , M with the same cross section.

IMHO larger core sizes need to some extent signature blooms baked into the core to combat the scenario I have presented.  I will illustrate below.

XS Core ship with  20 voxel wide front = 20 voxel wide cross section

S core ship with 20 Voxel wide front = 25 voxel wide cross section  (s core gives 25% bloom)
M core ship with 20 Voxel wide front = 30 voxel wide cross section ( m core gives 50% bloom)

L core ship with 20 Voxel wide front = 40 voxel wise cross section ( L core gives 100% bloom)

 

So you can see from the example above baking this into the cores stops the abuse that I laid out we players will do. So the next argument will be "well why use a larger core"  the answer is because they can hold more armor more container space for replacement elements and so on so you can stay in the fight longer.  Also destroyed elements should be have some material that could be salvaged by players so people can have spoils of victory in pvp.  I don't actually care about loot in PVP the experience is what I play for but I admit and understand that others see the loot as an integral part of the experience and reward for victory.  So being able to somehow salvage some monetary value from a vanquished foes battle steed will go a long way in appeasing a good portion of your players.

 

Next critique is destructible elements. For PVP this is an awesome change for non-pvp not so much. My suggestion is for non-pvp aka collision is that collision cannot break an element ( make it red) only damage it ( make it yellow). ITT several players have illustrated that due to bugs , things not loading or server / client issues desynch etc leads to ship crashes or collisions.  So I would highly encourage you with a rethink on non-pvp element damage or you will have a large part of your customers gnashing teeth.

 

In closing I just want to say that in a Sandbox MMO destruction is the seed of life. I can go on to ad nauseum of the hows and whys justifying and proving my point.  However someone did a much job than me in a much better way.   Let me introduce you to Jean-Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg from Zorg industries in the cult classic Fifth Element.   Enjoy the clip!

 

♥ Manny

 

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all changes will be great but they don't be balanced and can create a very wide clift into mining and economy. without a continuous renewal of ore source prices will grow up and gonna keep new and solo/duo players away from markets, obligating them again to join a bigger org. that bring again the controversial "safe zone moons" that "run out of rare ores" i know that all this renewal resources are in roadmap and they are coming but release your changes without releasing renewals ore resources mechanic is a non sense.


another thing in consideration is with the ability to bring the reduced durability items to the inventory... give a new use for the recycler. dismantel: capable to split the damaged element into crafting parts depending on the durability loss and always less than the cost of craft it. or just making a new industry unit and reuse the recycler as placeholder for don't "charge" too much to art devs.

 

anyway the changes will be good only if the renewal of resources mechanic release at same time.

 

pd: we will apreciate if you inform and show some of the conceps you have for the energy system and all new things you are working on, transparency, movable parts and on foot pvp is all starbase have to win you in future if you don't rush them, transparency over all.

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I am all for this change, but I hope that some of the major bugs relating to piloting will be fixed before this change is implemented, especially the adjustor lockup bug. Having to repair your ship completely when this happens is bad enough, but having to replace elements because of a bug is something I don't think many players will be happy about having to do.

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Just now, Neo_O said:

all changes will be great but they don't be balanced and can create a very wide clift into mining and economy. without a continuous renewal of ore source prices will grow up and gonna keep new and solo/duo players away from markets, obligating them again to join a bigger org. that bring again the controversial "safe zone moons" that "run out of rare ores" i know that all this renewal resources are in roadmap and they are coming but release your changes without releasing renewals ore resources mechanic is a non sense.


another thing in consideration is with the ability to bring the reduced durability items to the inventory... give a new use for the recycler. dismantel: capable to split the damaged element into crafting parts depending on the durability loss and always less than the cost of craft it. or just making a new industry unit and reuse the recycler as placeholder for don't "charge" too much to art devs.

 

anyway the changes will be good only if the renewal of resources mechanic release at same time.

 

pd: we will apreciate if you inform and show some of the conceps you have for the energy system and all new things you are working on, transparency, movable parts and on foot pvp is all starbase have to win you in future if you don't rush them, transparency over all.

NQ have said there will be asteroids and new solar systems to bring in new ore.  Your comment of the solo player having to join an org.  Lets look at that word Organization ( to organize) hmm I wonder why they would have an advantage over a solo player 🤔

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Just now, Mornington said:

Why is there only one comment so far on the industry side when it sounds like they seem to have just invalidated 100% of industry blueprints by bringing in a system where you need machines that don't exist yet to make parts you are already making?

The tractor made the plow horse obsolete bro. Advancement does that.

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3 minutes ago, Mornington said:

Why is there only one comment so far on the industry side when it sounds like they seem to have just invalidated 100% of industry blueprints by bringing in a system where you need machines that don't exist yet to make parts you are already making?

So much of the promise you can keep your blueprints from alpha.

Nice blueprints but just don't work...

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