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RIP Market 15


Emptiness

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1 hour ago, Emptiness said:

Because the devs are children, lashing out in the only way they ever learned?

Agreed.

No...

 

It is one thing to discover a bug like that and report it.  Even going as far as to put a small change to the structure.  But removing most of the structure then posting it all over Reddit with snide remarks and mocking NQ.  That is what got them banned.  

 

If anything the devs were quite adult about their response.  Harsh, but adult.  

 

This is prime example of bone head moves by players.  You know what you are doing is wrong, yet keep doing it, then when you realize you will get in trouble for it you ask not to be banned.  That is like taking the wheels off of a cop car and asking to not go to jail for vandalism and theft.  

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And so it begins. Was it worth it NQ?  You could have admitted you were wrong and turned this into a fun, memorable beta event. Now anyone looking at this game sees a dev team that cant learn from mistakes tying to build a complex game that will require trial and error. 

 

I've told people this game has the potential to be something huge but now?  I've logged in a few times since this went down but I'm just not feeling it anymore. I no longer believe this dev team can pull this off.  And no, its not because of this event alone.

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2 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I no longer believe this dev team can pull this off.  And no, its not because of this event alone.

 

I certainly believe the dev team can pull it off, the performance during the recent EXPO pretty much made that point very well.

 

IMO what is giving you the impression you have and the problem in general is the support and community team who seem to be understaffed, ill trained, lacking soft skills and empathy and are often both out of touch with the devs and the overall community. Not anyone in particular (as I am sure that most absolutely could and would do better if they had the opportunity) but as a team.  And it feels like there is no one central who can or is managing the project.

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

I certainly believe the dev team can pull it off, the performance during the recent EXPO pretty much made that point very well.

 

They have made great progress as far as server performance goes.  That only makes it more tragic that they are fumbling game play and balance.  The software is brilliant but the design is lacking.   

 

There were market problems on launch that players had been warning them about for months. It took a game balance disaster to make them see there was a problem.  Anyone looking at the way radar and weapons work could have predicted the borg cube infestation yet here we are.  Their element wear and tear plan isn't going to create nearly enough of a materials sink when planetary pvp launches. Then as we see here, the game has an easily exploited or overly complex rights management system. 


The devs have only admitted that one of these was a problem and that was after damage was done.  This game could be steered in a good direction if they would listen to their player base a bit.  This incident of banning those who brought attention to their mistakes (however extreme the method) has solidified my opinion that NQ are too prideful to take advice. 

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10 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

I certainly believe the dev team can pull it off, the performance during the recent EXPO pretty much made that point very well.

 

IMO what is giving you the impression you have and the problem in general is the support and community team who seem to be understaffed, ill trained, lacking soft skills and empathy and are often both out of touch with the devs and the overall community. Not anyone in particular (as I am sure that most absolutely could and would do better if they had the opportunity) but as a team.  And it feels like there is no one central who can or is managing the project.

There is no one central who is capable of managing this. JC is a naive researcher who thinks you can run a gaming company like a research lab. But as someone who has worked in both areas I can certainly tell you that's not the case at all. 

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On 10/20/2020 at 9:20 PM, LouHodo said:

No...

 

It is one thing to discover a bug like that and report it.  Even going as far as to put a small change to the structure.  But removing most of the structure then posting it all over Reddit with snide remarks and mocking NQ.  That is what got them banned.  

 

If anything the devs were quite adult about their response.  Harsh, but adult.  

 

This is prime example of bone head moves by players.  You know what you are doing is wrong, yet keep doing it, then when you realize you will get in trouble for it you ask not to be banned.  That is like taking the wheels off of a cop car and asking to not go to jail for vandalism and theft.  

I agree, the people who did this knew what they were doing, knew what the response could be (the PLS Dont Ban message is telling).

 

There are a lot of things they could have done when they found out they could edit the construct, the action THEY chose to take got them a ban.  Rule of thumb, when you have to consult the ToS to see if you are doing something wrong, you probably are......

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31 minutes ago, carijay766 said:

It's more like the police saying you can rob ANY open door without our interference, but when you rob the polices open door they hang you afterwards even tho it was never clarified and directly opposes our fundamental statement. 

Yep, but that's not the point. What I was saying wasn't a metaphor, it was more of a moral wish.

 

People are saying that the banned individuals did nothing wrong based on a rule aimed at PLAYERS. They knew what they were doing was wrong, yet they continued doing it and posted it on reddit for everyone to see so more people could take advantage of it. Regardless of whether they sent a DM to an NQ staffer on discord or not (this in itself is evidence they KNEW what they were doing was unintended, and I don't believe for a second they did send that DM, because that behaviour is diametrically apposed to their observed behaviour of recklessly disassembling a non-player owned structure). 

 

The whole theft by RDMS thing is morally and ethically wrong, NQ have just stated that they will not intervene when one player does this to another player (this is something they've borrowed from EVE, where corporate theft is something that happens a lot). I fail to see how this excuses people stealing and destroying non-player property.

 

Just because it's a video game doesn't mean common sense, morals and ethics should go out the window. What they did impacted on other people, it was an inconvenience to people with no recourse to fix the issue. If you don't understand that, then there is something fundamentally wrong with you, and FSM help whoever you interact with in real life, because you're clearly not capable of weighing the consequences of your actions.

 

p.s. that last part is just a general statement, not aimed directly at you caijay766

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2 hours ago, ArmitageShanks said:

Yep, but that's not the point. What I was saying wasn't a metaphor, it was more of a moral wish.

 

People are saying that the banned individuals did nothing wrong based on a rule aimed at PLAYERS. They knew what they were doing was wrong, yet they continued doing it and posted it on reddit for everyone to see so more people could take advantage of it. Regardless of whether they sent a DM to an NQ staffer on discord or not (this in itself is evidence they KNEW what they were doing was unintended, and I don't believe for a second they did send that DM, because that behaviour is diametrically apposed to their observed behaviour of recklessly disassembling a non-player owned structure). 

 

The whole theft by RDMS thing is morally and ethically wrong, NQ have just stated that they will not intervene when one player does this to another player (this is something they've borrowed from EVE, where corporate theft is something that happens a lot). I fail to see how this excuses people stealing and destroying non-player property.

 

Just because it's a video game doesn't mean common sense, morals and ethics should go out the window. What they did impacted on other people, it was an inconvenience to people with no recourse to fix the issue. If you don't understand that, then there is something fundamentally wrong with you, and FSM help whoever you interact with in real life, because you're clearly not capable of weighing the consequences of your actions.

 

p.s. that last part is just a general statement, not aimed directly at you caijay766

No one knew this was a permabannabl offense it was never clear and not obvious. It was obvious that it would be provocative to play by NQs rules sure, but no one expected them to be this hypocritical and twofaced about such issues. We had a similiar issue before where people fucked up there RDMS and NQs was like "its your fault". That was the only example we had on mismanaged RDMS.

" video game doesn't mean common sense, morals and ethics should go out the window." if anywhere then games are the place where you should be able to be immoral, unethical and a murderer..... and not outside of games eg. overreacting and out of proportion real life punishment by NQ qed - but again what about disassembling a market is immoral or unethical?! its a building basically no one used and if NQ hadnt implemented their storage in an absolute nonsense and amateurish way it wouldve been a matter of 1 minute to fix and replace, youre making it sound like they kidnapped someone for 2 weeks and tortured the victim sending body parts each day to NQ... but what actually happened is NQ freaked out about their fuck up and nuked curious players who found something within the legal and intended game mechanics that was NQs mistake and their "gain" was marginal (a couple of XS lights an some plastic voxel and unusable error items wow) - im sure the alpha backers (mostly the people who defend NQs action) who took over their whole bases, ships and more as magic blue prints from alpha really are in a huge disadvantage now, not forget alpha backers (again NQ fucked up to launch of the website and beta key distribution on time) sold vastly avaible t5 to the market bot for insanely high prices in the early bird beta gaining several hundred million quantas before the game even really started (but lets ignore the bigger picture for convenience shall we - no one complained, no one was banned then even tho it was clearly not intended... everyone just rolled with it and swept it under the carpet)

 

Pro: it was within the games intended system - while surely provocative or gray zonish (but perfectly fine in sandbox sense of way) not an exploit or buguse at any end.

 

Contra: NQ was pretty butthurt about their own mistake, panicked, overreacted and now cant swallow their french pride to correct things and flatten the wave (their sad attempt atm is to censor and silence everyone)

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20 hours ago, DavidDavidson said:

Is bragging about playing the game by the rules a violation of the EULA though? 

Seems more like a violation of a fragile ego to me. 

There is bragging about playing a game, or defeating another player.  While using mechanics in the game that are not exploitation of bugs.  

 

When you flaunt the fact that you exploited a bug.  That is what got them banned.  

 

Same reason why idiots get arrested by posting videos on their instagram or tiktok of them commiting a crime.  Can't fix stupid.

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1 hour ago, LouHodo said:

There is bragging about playing a game, or defeating another player.  While using mechanics in the game that are not exploitation of bugs.  

 

When you flaunt the fact that you exploited a bug.  That is what got them banned.  

 

Same reason why idiots get arrested by posting videos on their instagram or tiktok of them commiting a crime.  Can't fix stupid.

"When you flaunt the fact that you exploited a bug." youre forgetting that even people who just took even one voxel - after it was known and public for hours and NQ did not react even tho it was reported in the discord server and the GMs even acknowledged this - were permabanned apparently.

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1 hour ago, LouHodo said:

There is bragging about playing a game, or defeating another player.  While using mechanics in the game that are not exploitation of bugs.  

 

When you flaunt the fact that you exploited a bug.  That is what got them banned.  

 

Same reason why idiots get arrested by posting videos on their instagram or tiktok of them commiting a crime.  Can't fix stupid.

Forgetting to set the permissions on your construct is not a bug. 

The TOS is pretty damn clear on that front and the EULA says nothing about developer constructs being immune to player theft or that resulting in a ban. 

As such the OP reeks of fragile ego and limp wristed anger. The developer who was so mad and so butthurt over losing his precious market should have turned off his Internet for a few days and calmed down. 

Instead we have this shitshow. 

 

And if you try the "well the developers had to work to rebuild it" so fucking what. These developers are getting paid by their beta testers, monthly no less to have their game tested. Their game got tested. They should have just said "well, I guess it's time I did the thing I get paid for all the time and clean up market 15" plenty of players have lost their constructs due to permission based theft because they screwed up permissions and instead of being paid to regain what they lost they are paying RL money to regain what they lost and 9/10 times they take it like a man and realize that they should be more careful with permissions in future. They also can't just spawn in replacment items using a dev tool. 

As such the devs are throwing a hissy fit because they have to do their job for once instead of collecting monthly beta tester tax whilst sitting on their thrones.

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6 hours ago, Moosegun said:

I agree, the people who did this knew what they were doing, knew what the response could be (the PLS Dont Ban message is telling).

 

There are a lot of things they could have done when they found out they could edit the construct, the action THEY chose to take got them a ban.  Rule of thumb, when you have to consult the ToS to see if you are doing something wrong, you probably are......

Finishing a sentence like that  (.......) indicates that its an unfinished sentence. So let me finish it for you. 

"Rule of thumb, when you have to consult the TOS to see if you are doing something wrong, you probably are doing everything in your power to make sure you're not doing anything wrong."

 

There. Finished it for you. Looks much more complete that way. 

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34 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

Finishing a sentence like that  (.......) indicates that its an unfinished sentence. So let me finish it for you. 

"Rule of thumb, when you have to consult the TOS to see if you are doing something wrong, you probably are doing everything in your power to make sure you're not doing anything wrong."

 

There. Finished it for you. Looks much more complete that way. 

Not really, that is not the point, most players DONT have to look at the ToS at all, because they never come close to breaking it. 

 

39 minutes ago, carijay766 said:

 

I like Virtual, he is a nice guy, does a lot of the community but this video is just two salty banned gamers.   The had several choices during this to inform NQ, to not smash up the Market, it was their choice of actions, they ran off to Reddit to boast, they have to take the consequences.  I bloody hate it when player hide behind ToS and 'the community' to justify their actions, these two sound like adults?  They behaved like kids and GOT SLAPPED.  Interesting that he decides to bring up his own issues...... not sure the relevance.  Sounding a little entitled there.

"It wasnt their fault"  whose fault was it?  They werent doing this as a favour to NQ, they did it for shits and giggles and to get their names out, well that worked.

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42 minutes ago, Moosegun said:

Not really, that is not the point, most players DONT have to look at the ToS at all, because they never come close to breaking it. 

 

I like Virtual, he is a nice guy, does a lot of the community but this video is just two salty banned gamers.   The had several choices during this to inform NQ, to not smash up the Market, it was their choice of actions, they ran off to Reddit to boast, they have to take the consequences.  I bloody hate it when player hide behind ToS and 'the community' to justify their actions, these two sound like adults?  They behaved like kids and GOT SLAPPED.  Interesting that he decides to bring up his own issues...... not sure the relevance.  Sounding a little entitled there.

"It wasnt their fault"  whose fault was it?  They werent doing this as a favour to NQ, they did it for shits and giggles and to get their names out, well that worked.

They did inform NQ. They state that in the video they sent a DM. 

What they did was relatively minor, a good dev would fix the permission system, not ban them and then make a thread talking about how "its not a quick fix" and "they broke the EULA" when they cannot cite what part of the EULA they broke, because they didn't break the EULA.

 

As for "Most players don't have to look at the TOS at all" you must have never played EvE. I made my first few billion (back when a billion ISK was a lot of money and a month of game time would cost you about 170 million) by straight up scamming people either by selling them ships renamed to "navy issue" (like a "Megathron" renamed to "Megathron Navy Issue")  for a huge markup as navy issue ships cost about 5x as much as the base model (which is what they got).

Setting freeform contracts that players had to pay to accept and then could never complete.

Ransoming ships by using the lofty scam (you make a shell corporation, declare war on it and then invite someone to your fleet with shell Corp A and they become an unmarked war target for Corp B, then as they take their shiny ship to help you on a mission you instead warp them to where you're waiting with your main and Corp A who ransom or destroy that guy's ship and pod).

Declaring war on juicy targets and ransoming their corporation for protection money.

When they released wormholes we offered to do "wormhole tours" with people then when they were in an area they could be killed with impunity (wormhole space) ransoming or destroying their ship/pod.

Probing out people running missions stealing from their loot and getting them to shoot at me in a small, weak ship then coming back within the 15 minute aggro timer in a more powerful ship and ransoming/killing them.

When mobile tractor units first came out (essentially a deployable mini structure that vacuumed in wrecks and looted them for you) I would attack it and that would cause their drones to automatically attack me meaning that I could then shoot back, allowing me to ransom/kill the person who just had their drones run off and attack me. 

I had to check whether or not this was against the TOS/labelled an exploit a lot of the time, it never was and despite many reports against me (at least 100)i never got so much as a warning. because the TOS said it was okay. 

Here's an EvE mail I got from someone who got told by the GM "sorry, its within the TOS" narrated by Jade Elira:

 

https://terrusvalkingrage.ytmnd.com/

 

At the end of the day, what they did was legit according to what the devs themselves said. They didn't cheat, they didn't exploit a bug, they saw that the developers had made an oopsie and took some stuff. They also let NQ know, which GMs on the NQ discord backed up before NQ started banning their GMs. 

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1 hour ago, DavidDavidson said:

They did inform NQ. They state that in the video they sent a DM. 

What they did was relatively minor, a good dev would fix the permission system, not ban them and then make a thread talking about how "its not a quick fix" and "they broke the EULA" when they cannot cite what part of the EULA they broke, because they didn't break the EULA.

 

As for "Most players don't have to look at the TOS at all" you must have never played EvE. I made my first few billion (back when a billion ISK was a lot of money and a month of game time would cost you about 170 million) by straight up scamming people either by selling them ships renamed to "navy issue" (like a "Megathron" renamed to "Megathron Navy Issue")  for a huge markup as navy issue ships cost about 5x as much as the base model (which is what they got).

Setting freeform contracts that players had to pay to accept and then could never complete.

Ransoming ships by using the lofty scam (you make a shell corporation, declare war on it and then invite someone to your fleet with shell Corp A and they become an unmarked war target for Corp B, then as they take their shiny ship to help you on a mission you instead warp them to where you're waiting with your main and Corp A who ransom or destroy that guy's ship and pod).

Declaring war on juicy targets and ransoming their corporation for protection money.

When they released wormholes we offered to do "wormhole tours" with people then when they were in an area they could be killed with impunity (wormhole space) ransoming or destroying their ship/pod.

Probing out people running missions stealing from their loot and getting them to shoot at me in a small, weak ship then coming back within the 15 minute aggro timer in a more powerful ship and ransoming/killing them.

When mobile tractor units first came out (essentially a deployable mini structure that vacuumed in wrecks and looted them for you) I would attack it and that would cause their drones to automatically attack me meaning that I could then shoot back, allowing me to ransom/kill the person who just had their drones run off and attack me. 

I had to check whether or not this was against the TOS/labelled an exploit a lot of the time, it never was and despite many reports against me (at least 100)i never got so much as a warning. because the TOS said it was okay. 

Here's an EvE mail I got from someone who got told by the GM "sorry, its within the TOS" narrated by Jade Elira:

 

https://terrusvalkingrage.ytmnd.com/

 

At the end of the day, what they did was legit according to what the devs themselves said. They didn't cheat, they didn't exploit a bug, they saw that the developers had made an oopsie and took some stuff. They also let NQ know, which GMs on the NQ discord backed up before NQ started banning their GMs. 

There is even screenshoted proof that it was reported, despite the "official claims" of NQ.

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31 minutes ago, carijay766 said:

There is even screenshoted proof that it was reported, despite the "official claims" of NQ.

1 hour ago, DavidDavidson said:

They did inform NQ. They state that in the video they sent a DM. 

What they did was relatively minor, a good dev would fix the permission system, not ban them and then make a thread talking about how "its not a quick fix" and "they broke the EULA" when they cannot cite what part of the EULA they broke, because they didn't break the EULA.

 

As for "Most players don't have to look at the TOS at all" you must have never played EvE. I made my first few billion (back when a billion ISK was a lot of money and a month of game time would cost you about 170 million) by straight up scamming people either by selling them ships renamed to "navy issue" (like a "Megathron" renamed to "Megathron Navy Issue")  for a huge markup as navy issue ships cost about 5x as much as the base model (which is what they got).

Setting freeform contracts that players had to pay to accept and then could never complete.

Ransoming ships by using the lofty scam (you make a shell corporation, declare war on it and then invite someone to your fleet with shell Corp A and they become an unmarked war target for Corp B, then as they take their shiny ship to help you on a mission you instead warp them to where you're waiting with your main and Corp A who ransom or destroy that guy's ship and pod).

Declaring war on juicy targets and ransoming their corporation for protection money.

When they released wormholes we offered to do "wormhole tours" with people then when they were in an area they could be killed with impunity (wormhole space) ransoming or destroying their ship/pod.

Probing out people running missions stealing from their loot and getting them to shoot at me in a small, weak ship then coming back within the 15 minute aggro timer in a more powerful ship and ransoming/killing them.

When mobile tractor units first came out (essentially a deployable mini structure that vacuumed in wrecks and looted them for you) I would attack it and that would cause their drones to automatically attack me meaning that I could then shoot back, allowing me to ransom/kill the person who just had their drones run off and attack me. 

I had to check whether or not this was against the TOS/labelled an exploit a lot of the time, it never was and despite many reports against me (at least 100)i never got so much as a warning. because the TOS said it was okay. 

Here's an EvE mail I got from someone who got told by the GM "sorry, its within the TOS" narrated by Jade Elira:

 

https://terrusvalkingrage.ytmnd.com/

 

At the end of the day, what they did was legit according to what the devs themselves said. They didn't cheat, they didn't exploit a bug, they saw that the developers had made an oopsie and took some stuff. They also let NQ know, which GMs on the NQ discord backed up before NQ started banning their GMs. 

I was under the impression they informed NQ after the fact with a message that 'someone has messed up the markets', that is very different to reporting the issue in private and leaving the market alone.  They decided not to do this but instead perform some mindless childish vandalism.  Simple admonishing the act because they were 'able' to do it, does not excuse the act.

I played Eve for several years from launch, alongside many other sandbox full loot MMO;s which are open to such scams, never read a ToS because they dont effect me, I dont try to scam and I dont get scammed (I am too honest to make a good mark), I dont exploit, I dont try to find exploits, so I never need to worry about these things.  I would suggest that, as in this case, if you have to read the ToS to decide if you should can do something, generally it is a risk.

Personally I cannot excuse someone actions simply because they can find some loophole in a legal document.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Moosegun said:

Not really, that is not the point, most players DONT have to look at the ToS at all, because they never come close to breaking it. 

 

I like Virtual, he is a nice guy, does a lot of the community but this video is just two salty banned gamers.   The had several choices during this to inform NQ, to not smash up the Market, it was their choice of actions, they ran off to Reddit to boast, they have to take the consequences.  I bloody hate it when player hide behind ToS and 'the community' to justify their actions, these two sound like adults?  They behaved like kids and GOT SLAPPED.  Interesting that he decides to bring up his own issues...... not sure the relevance.  Sounding a little entitled there.

"It wasnt their fault"  whose fault was it?  They werent doing this as a favour to NQ, they did it for shits and giggles and to get their names out, well that worked.

Exactly how I feel.  

 

They got caught and caught up due to their own arrogance.  So now they are banned they will cry about it.

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2 hours ago, Moosegun said:

I was under the impression they informed NQ after the fact with a message that 'someone has messed up the markets', that is very different to reporting the issue in private and leaving the market alone.  They decided not to do this but instead perform some mindless childish vandalism.  Simple admonishing the act because they were 'able' to do it, does not excuse the act.

I played Eve for several years from launch, alongside many other sandbox full loot MMO;s which are open to such scams, never read a ToS because they dont effect me, I dont try to scam and I dont get scammed (I am too honest to make a good mark), I dont exploit, I dont try to find exploits, so I never need to worry about these things.  I would suggest that, as in this case, if you have to read the ToS to decide if you should can do something, generally it is a risk.

Personally I cannot excuse someone actions simply because they can find some loophole in a legal document.

 

 

Sorry vandalism, seriously? Vandalism is what has been happening across the US and parts of England over the past few months. Destruction of real life property that you can't just hit Ctrl and Z to bring back. It's not like they went into the server room equipped with hammers and smashed up a server with "market 15" written on it.

They changed some aspects of a video game. Aspects which can easily be changed back. 

They sent a message via discord at 9am French time saying that the market 15 didn't have the correct permissions set. One guy who took two whole voxel lamps got hit with a permaban, he didn't even know Scoopy and Uber. 

 

If you have to read the TOS and what you are doing is specifically stated as completely okay in said TOS then you are just covering all bases. As for the whole not scamming people in video games because you're too honest of a person, that's a bit silly. They are video games. Video games =/= real life. I'm a very honest person IRL, however I know the difference between a game and real life. 

 

You seem to think ingame behaviour in a role playing game shows what type of person you are IRL. 

 

As for novaquirk, they never even said what part of the EULA Scoopy and Uber broke, they just said they broke the EULA. People have gone through it with a fine tooth comb (myself included) and haven't found a single violation. So when it comes to being honest, it would appear that Novaquirk are the dishonest ones here, saying that the EULA was broken, that they were never informed, banning GMs that say that novaquirk was indeed informed, that is dishonesty, changing a few voxels because you can and the developers stated that you could do so is playing a video game by the rules. 

 

Oh if you're going to run with "it's a game why does it matter if they're banned then" it matters because they paid money to play the game. They should either be unbanned and apologised to profusely or refunded in full. That is honesty. 

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