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Bot orders are allowing the limited supply of T1 ore to be converted to quanta en masse.


Emptiness

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Currently, mega industrialists with good crafting skills are crafting various intermediaries and voxels, and selling them to bot orders for a profit. For example: Basic components, connectors, screws, or pipes, or steel voxels / honeycomb. 

 

Let's take a close look at Steel honeycomb.There are roughly 100 different varieties of steel honeycomb, and a significant fraction have bot buy orders. Let's take a look at .. galvanized beige steel. Every single market in game has a buy order for roughly 200,000 of this voxel, at prices varying from 338.84 to 361.11 per m3. For the purposes of this exercise, we will assume a sale price of 361.11 per m3.

 

We start with Hematite and Coal.
Given 100kl of Hematite (23q/l, 2.3m quanta), and 50kl of Coal (21q/l, 1.05m quanta), with level 4 refining skills, that becomes 65 * 0.88 input, 45 * 1.12 output, for 88.112% efficiency.

 

We get 88,112l Pure Iron and 55,056l 44,056l Pure Carbon. Now, for steel refining. Level 4 skills, 100 * 0.88, 50 * 0.88 inputs, 75 * 1.12 output, for 88 iron, 44 carbon, 84 steel output.

 

We now have 84,107l steel. Now, for honeycomb refining. Base honeycomb refining is 100l for 10m3. Steel honeycomb refining skills at level 4 give: 100 * 0.8, 10 * 1.2, for 80 steel input, 12 m3 output.

 

We now have ~12,600m3 of steel honeycombs. Let's go back to that bot buy order. 361.11q per m3, 200k quantity. We sell the 12,600m3 of steel honeycomb to the bot buy order, deleting those materials from the game, and getting ~4.55 million quanta injected into the economy from nowhere. At 3.35 million ore costs, that's quite a profit.

 

At level 5 skills, this profit becomes even more absurd, at ~5.7 mil. Even via crafting something like basic pipes, 3.3 mil of ore gets deleted/converted to 5.4 mil quanta...

 

Does anyone else think this is a problem?

 

TLDR: Good crafting skills lets you convert ore to parts and sell them to bot orders for crazy profits and also delete that ore from the game. Probably 20 million liters of t1 are being deleted per day, or more, and 500 million quanta added to the economy. Also, expect to see T1 ore prices rise to at least 35q per liter before people stop doing this.

Edited by Emptiness
minor typo
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Those are still wimp numbers compared to what most other MMOs generate.

 

This game also has some pretty large money drains, especially in claiming territory.   Which has a drain rate that goes up 4x per tile.  After territory control the amount of territory you need to claim to protect you inner tiles goes up at a 6x rate.

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49 minutes ago, HangerHangar said:

Those are still wimp numbers compared to what most other MMOs generate.

Are there other mmos that allow purchasing ore/materials from players for market price, doing stuff with the materials, and selling to npcs for a profit?

 

I'm very curious what those mmos are.

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I don't think this will be an issue unless what we currently have as a playable area stays as is.

I'm trusting these devs, they've surprised me many times over by now. I don't think they would introduce economy into the game like this without thinking it through.

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2 hours ago, Kyerion said:

I don't think this will be an issue unless what we currently have as a playable area stays as is.

I'm trusting these devs, they've surprised me many times over by now. I don't think they would introduce economy into the game like this without thinking it through.

I can tell you weren’t here for the bot fiasco of ‘20, which allowed people to make 100’s of millions in days. The bot buy/sell should have never been at the start of soft release. So no, they didn’t think this one through at all.

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I would 100% agree that T1 buys bots can be removed from the game now, they are not needed, there are enough players buying from the market, it is removing ore from the game which is really not good and stop supply range as people are just bulk making a single product, rather than having to provide a wider range to the general public (something we do).  This should be done with the UTMOST urgency.

Anyone thinking of doing it, might make to income short term but it is a very lazy path, which you could find is blocked very soon (hopefully).

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3 hours ago, Moosegun said:

I would 100% agree that T1 buys bots can be removed from the game now, they are not needed, there are enough players buying from the market, it is removing ore from the game which is really not good and stop supply range as people are just bulk making a single product, rather than having to provide a wider range to the general public (something we do).  This should be done with the UTMOST urgency.

Anyone thinking of doing it, might make to income short term but it is a very lazy path, which you could find is blocked very soon (hopefully).

So like if T1 bots where gone today, where would money actually come from? T1 bots (and daily 100K) is the ONLY money source in the entire game. So without T1 bots the total amount of currency in the game would be locked and stationary at current levels. Meaning players would be stuck just trading the same money back and forth (with the expected results of rich getting richer and poor getting poorer etc), and for every new player joining there would be less overall. That is not how economy works, either in games or RL.

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4 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

So like if T1 bots where gone today, where would money actually come from? T1 bots (and daily 100K) is the ONLY money source in the entire game. So without T1 bots the total amount of currency in the game would be locked and stationary at current levels. Meaning players would be stuck just trading the same money back and forth (with the expected results of rich getting richer and poor getting poorer etc), and for every new player joining there would be less overall. That is not how economy works, either in games or RL.

Erm you do realise a loads of money also gets spent at the other end TO BOTS, bots are also a massive quanta sink, only NQ knows which is greater.  and only a certain number of player generating income by cheesing it from selling to bots, I havent sold a single item to bots, nor does anyone else I play with, it is a certain playerstyle choice, and a shit one at that because it completely cuts out the community / civilisation we should be building.  Also the daily 100k, even if you only take 5000 logins, injects - 500,000,000 per day.

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Economy (at least in intended way) failed since begining, its all just different smaller manifestations of its faliure popping here and there.

 

Sure, some people still can be trader in such enviroment (like in IRL there is "trader" in any society or circumstance) and localy it works for them, but overall thing is very concerning. Futher average player progress into game, more obvious it will be.

 

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I wouldn't have a big problem with the bots if they actually were limited to selling the stuff they bought instead of selling stuff out of thin air and deleting what they are buying. I think that is going to have a major overall negative impact to the game.

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Some people have suggested the following fix to the bot order situation, while leaving them ingame.

 

What if the bot order prices were based on a rolling 7 day average of player order prices? Buy orders would be 25%, sell orders would be 400%. This would allow items not sold by players to still be obtained, albeit at a premium, while ensuring one couldn't buy from player orders and make a profit selling to the bots. For voxels, the bot order prices would be based on the lowest buy / highest sell price for any voxel of a type.

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2 hours ago, Zabba_MacCracken said:

I think these calculations are just completely wrong? interesting how you make 55kl pure carbon out of 50kl coal ore... and that's just one mistake I guess?

Whoops, thank you for catching that. Seems to have been the only typo; that line ended with "88 iron, 44 carbon, 84 steel output"

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My biggest issue with these bot orders is not the quanta, quanta is easy to make and there are more profitable ways to make it that this cheese.  My issue is that it is stopping products from getting to markets to be sold to players.  All these lazy players SHOULD be making things players wants to buy, as it is they are just sitting there outside the 'player made universe'.  This is happening in too many places, like giving free repairs and teleports in support.  All players get 100,000k a day for nothing, tell the this is beta compensation of issues and pass them to a community support team to do ingame repairs / refuel / transportation.  Currently NOONE is pushing these services at all because there is no point.  You crash, NQ will fix it........ a bit disappointed tbh, you are making decisions that go against what you are trying to create.

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  • 1 month later...

I am pretty new to the game so forgive me if I am being stupid here.

A quick calculation shows me that producing silumin from my refined resources and selling it will lose me money.

 

selling the aluminium and silicon used to make 1000L of silumin as refined bars will earn me ~47k with local instant sell

 

selling the 1000l of silumin earns me 35k with local instant sell

Am I adding something up wrong here? Is this the problem that the bots are creating? It seems very strange to me that a product that takes investment and time would reward the seller with less than the resources used to make it. I also admit that I have no idea if I am selling to a bot or a player as I just started the game.

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5 minutes ago, Burble said:

producing silumin from my refined resources

Check the values with maxed level 5 skills, which is what the market tycoons taking advantage of this are now working with. The difference between level 3 or 4 in all and level 5 in all is slightly insane, especially for honeycomb (steel honeycombs). There's ore refining skills, alloy skills, honeycomb skills, and they all multiply together for insanity.

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Ah ok, so I assume as a noob my skills wont allow for profit on these items. That helps me understand, because I was also looking at the viability of producing large containers and selling them but it looked like I would be making a huge loss compared with simply selling the ore based on the average instant sell prices on Alioth.

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10 minutes ago, Burble said:

Ah ok, so I assume as a noob my skills wont allow for profit on these items.

As a newbie, your best option for making money is to embrace the tedium of mining and just make a hauler, mine hematite from unclaimed alioth hexes and haul it to Market 17 or equivalent place with high priced buy orders.

 

Or quit and find a more interesting game. I quit almost a month ago and am not sure if I'll return. I'm keeping skill queues going for my remaining sub time but that's about it.

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