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blazemonger

Industry changes which may possibly come (and TW as well)

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NQ has now let slip several indications they are looking at making industry harder to get into and/or run mega factories.

 

I think that at this point they backed themselves into a corner and have no real way out to change this anymore unless they wipe. What many of us predicted has pretty much happened, the big orgs have pretty much set up a fenced of self supporting environment within the game and markets barely function at all. Travel times and unavailability of items (at decent prices) has pretty much forced a meta where everyone just sets up their onw production lines. It's _far_ more efficient to have a warp cell factory set up to supply needed cells than buying form the market and this is _far_ more cost effective.

 

Whatever changes they make will only affect new players and small groups. The big orgs are already so well established as a result from existing conditions and previous events that shall not be named that making industry "harder" will noot affect them much if at all.

 

In all honesty I do not see how NQ can introduce balance changes to Industry at this point without a full wipe without provisioning of "magic" blueprints. The mega factories in existence will just chug along and only benefit more from any such changes in regard to maintaining and extending their lead. The "make it up as we go" attitude NQ seems to be following since start of beta really does not go well together with the idea of having a live game which for all intent and purposes has been released since NQ is charging money for access. I get they likely had no choice in the matter for financial reasons but the conditions they set up for this (no loss of assets as a guarantee pretty much) has severely tied their hands in their options to bring balance and make radical changes , some of which will be needed.

 

And it is not just industry, it appears NQ is at least trying to push forward Territory warfare which they seem to want to  get in within 6-8 months while it appears that there is no actually agreed plan on _how_ this needs to be implemented. Mind you, I think TW needs to get here as it will bring in a hole new slew of great opportunity and gameplay but NQ can't frek this up or the game will be in ruins in no time.

 

As it stands the core server system is still far from ready. While the game server itself seem to be running pretty good, the backend is still very unstable and unreliable. While I get NQ is itching to progress they really need to get the backbone fixed before they can and I honestly think they need to face that an eventual full wipe (at "launch")  is pretty much inevitable despite the commitments they have made. And it may well be better to face that and communicate that now than a year from now. 

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I agree with much of what you said. I do not agree with you on the wipe... Or that NQ should touch industry. 

 

They are attempting to fix an economy where there are no consumers by reducing producers. 

 

Until elements are destroyed entirely the economy will not work. 

 

 

 

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That they need to stop scrap from fully repairing elements is a given. Unfortunately, it is in NQ's DNA to not actually take the most logical option and so they proceed to reinvent the wheel or worse, try to create a square wheel and make it behave like it's round ;)

 

Scrap should be like the repair kit in GTA .. it brings you home but that's about it, you'll probably need to replace the  engine afterwards.

 

And while I understand the objections to a full wipe, it is my opinion that NQ will not be able to get around that one without giving large groups a massive benefit as they nerf mechanics in order to balance the "release" game.

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First off, about the industry: NQ, please decide what you're doing with industry ASAP and communicate it immediately. The changes mentioned on the upvote website are not "balancing", they are a major redesign of a core feature. I haven't participated in enough Betas to know if this is normal, but even if it is, it is certainly frustrating.

 

I'm kinda torn on the merits. On the one hand I feel this game has been way too easy to get into in general, and that hurts the game. On the other hand the way the markets have operated it has seemed that there have actually been too *few* industrialists rather than too many. The redesign being contemplated (or that NQ has already decided on?) would break existing factories, wiping out a lot of the "progress" many of us have made in the game so far that comes from connecting factories up. To be clear, I think some recipe tweaking would be pretty fair "balancing"... but requiring that we rebuild our factories with elements that do not yet exist is a fundamental redesign. I'm not really playing the game until we get clarification from NQ on this, to be honest, to avoid wasting time.

 

Some comments on other things said in this thread:

- People like to say the markets aren't working, but I really don't see evidence of that. It took a little time for them to get off the ground but you can get almost all elements in the Alioth system now at pretty reasonable prices. Profit spreads are narrowing quite a bit now for higher tier elements, profit spreads have been essentially gone for T1 elements for awhile. Of course people who choose to leave Alioth for various reasons may contend with less liquid markets, but that's a gameplay choice they're making. And I don't think it'll take that long for markets on other planets to become liquid.

- Territory warfare is another big feature, and I hope NQ implements in ASAP. My personal preference is that the only safe zones be Sanctuary and around the districts, and I feel it's unfortunate that JC has indicated this will not be the case. But anyway, whatever they are going to implement, I hope they do it soon. It's really not possible to promise people the progress they have made won't be wiped out when major game features are still being designed/redesigned/implemented.

 

tldr: Please implement major changes soon, communicate about them even sooner, promises about not wiping out player progress can't really be made when core features (that we thought were final) are apparently still up in the air. Also, markets are working pretty well.

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Be careful what you wish for - or at least what you think is necessary: a wipe itself isn't a solution - it will just upset lots of players which have put many hours into the development of their base(s).

You may find a solution with which most of us can live with, and I'm quite confident that's the path NQ will aim for...

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I would not have any issue with a wipe and frankly consider it a requirement on release. That NQ seems to think differently is their choice to make and they will need to find a way to work with that while they try and also balance the game.

 

I think NQ made the choice to try and stick with no wipes to not deter potential paying customers, which IMO is not a good basis for a game in a state where such commitment will bring a lot of skewed and unfair advantage as well as severe restrictions on whet they can do to fix and balance as they go.

 

 

1 hour ago, Poliwopper said:

tldr: Please implement major changes soon, communicate about them even sooner, promises about not wiping out player progress can't really be made when core features (that we thought were final) are apparently still up in the air. Also, markets are working pretty well.

 

This is the problem.. The major changes should have been in before beta started with the polish and (minor) balance to be done during. That NQ still needs to bring in so much and a lot of that will severely disrupt and upset the game balance is by default in conflict with their commitment to stability and maintaining assets in game. I get they were forced to go public much sooner than hoped but the choices made will only cause more frustration and hurdles along the way.

 

So yes, for the sake of the game in the long run I really do not see how NQ can avoid a full wipe once the game is _actually_ in a beta state and balanced enough to not expect further disruptions at the scale we have yet to see happen.

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4 minutes ago, BaconofWar said:

NQ is holding a vote where one of the items is power management for factories.

 

Vote is trash due to lack of detail - I want power for construct weapon systems - but not as a means of limiting industry.

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1 hour ago, BaconofWar said:

NQ is holding a vote where one of the items is power management for factories.

We need a root/core power system which is available to manage/control a lot of stuff in the game, not a tack-on mechanic shoehorned in to nerf Industry to the point where NQ can drive players to the markets instead as that is what they want really.

 

The upvote system is a waste of time as it can be easily manipulated and is public so anyone, whether they have an interest in DU  or even have a an account can add ideas or vote. It's another "tick the box" exercise which has very little structural to add to the game development where NQ will do what they feel they need to anyway. I do not at all expect them to take upvote into account, at best they will use it to spin their communication to appear to do so when it suits in their internal planning (as far as that exists).

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

So yes, for the sake of the game in the long run I really do not see how NQ can avoid a full wipe once the game is _actually_ in a beta state and balanced enough to not expect further disruptions at the scale we have yet to see happen.

I don't really feel like wiping out the progress of everyone else would help me if my (factory building) progress were to be wiped out, so I'm not in favor of a wipe, given the promises that have been made. It's just a little frustrating to see systems I thought were settled being reengineered.

 

I proposed in the "upvote" site comments that they leave current industry functionality alone (apart from possibly making recipes a bit more expensive), and then introduce new T2 industry elements that would require recipes to be bought from bots, that would be more efficient in terms of materials and/or time. That way existing factories would continue to work but to be an industrialist selling stuff on the market you'd have to gradually upgrade to the new elements.

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I actually completely disagree with your opinion on the state of the markets (economy wise) they are filling up with a variety of products, everyday I am competing with bots less and less and margins are getting tighter an tighter on most products.  

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We sell a wide range of stuff across a wide range of markets (across several markets, on several planets), i visit several every day.  Two key things:

  • NQ MUST sort the bloody parking out, get tough with people, make a barren moon and ANYTHING is left at the markets for more than 48 hours is dumped there, DO SOMETHING.  It has been a problem for far too long. It screws up new player experience and stops people wanting to use the markets - I wouldnt mind if they were busy, but it is the same crappy ships and poxy advertising EVERY DAY, with the players that are actually using the market dotted around on the grass at some locations
  • New players and orgs should be encouraged to manufacture and sell products, not use the obvious things but a wide range of stuff - we help our players to build there own industry and then enter the markets

 

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The Biggest Issue is that NQ dont seem to have any serious planning / modeling / metrics on key points of information.

Avg and Max income per player on 0 skills and full skills
Cost of building / buying a warp capable ship.
Time investment target to build / buy warp capable ship.

Time to mine out 1m units of T1 ore skilled and unskilled.
Income per hour, skilled and unskilled.

These are just some examples of stuff i think is probably important to know. Once you know what your targeting for you can compare with actual server data. assuming that you are collecting such info.
Then you can use it to identify where the problems are specifically.

I suspect a big part of the problem is skills. If you want people to specialize more you need to give bigger incentive. maybe even consider making some skills mutually exclusive. As it is now, Anyone can and often do, do everything. PVP, Mine, Explore and Scan, Haul, Refine, Craft.  i do like being able to do everything, as its suits my play style. but it doesnt encourage a community market, cooperation, grouping up etc.  

One big mistake is having all T1 ores in every Hex.  At best is should be 10k distance to travel to find all 4.   and For T2 ores, it should be Contential.

Lastly, dont look at what the large corps are doing. that isnt typical player behaviour and its almost impossible to ballance a game around that. organisation and division of labour will always win. without imposing artifical limits on territory and resources you cant limit them.

Back in the 50's 60's when the USA was developing the Blackbird, It wanted to make the Aircraft out of Titanium. this was bleeding edge stuff , so much so, that only the USSR actually had access to it. They were forced to trade, via third parties to buy Titanium.  

No one country has everything. 

There is a quick Fix to this, but you and the player base wont like it. 

if your in an Org, only the Org can place TCU's   The First one that goes down becomes the capital and every other TCU must be placed ajacent. and you get a contigious nation state.  add to this the local and contential varience of resources you might get a solution. 

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Thinking about this more, someone above said we need elements to take damage.

Its worse than that actually. There is currently no way for anything thats mined to die or vanish.  its only going to increase ( unless something changes) to the point that elements become trivial in cost.
 

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More and more items are not worth to produce anymore on Alioth, you can make more money by selling the raw ores directly. There is not enough demand for the moment. Why? imo:

- the game is still young, there is not enough players to buy what industrialists produce and T1 ore is abundant. Will there be enough players to consume all that ore later?

- there is not enough destruction, the pvp is not fully developped, technically and socially. There is no big entitys, alliances, and no wars afaik. 

- about destruction itself: elements cannot be destroyed, pvp only make elements transit from a player to another. This seams to be the main problem, but we must remember that we are in a finite world. If NQ makes elements destructible, is it really good in the long run? Will they gives us fresh new ores to mine and rebuild what we want? (new systems, asteroids belts, etc) 

 

For the industries, I don't like the fact that when we can build basic T1 elements like engine S, we can in fact build everything. Once we set up a basic industry (10x each machine), we're good to go and can build every items in the game with no constraints except the required ore of course. There is no technological research, we can build everything everywhere with any character, the ore spread is not a sufficient barrier.

Another thing is that it's too easy to build large ships, all piloting elements require only T1 ores even at the biggest size, with the exception of the T2 for the space fuel. All other ores are for non mandatory elements (hub, res node, surrogates, decorative elements, etc).

 

1 hour ago, Maxnano said:

Lastly, dont look at what the large corps are doing. that isnt typical player behaviour and its almost impossible to ballance a game around that. organisation and division of labour will always win. without imposing artifical limits on territory and resources you cant limit them.

Game designers have to look at what the top players are doing, they must know what happen when the game is pushed to the limits. I don't know how they could balance a game by looking at average joes.

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2 minutes ago, Ater Omen said:

More and more items are not worth to produce anymore on Alioth, you can make more money by selling the raw ores directly. There is not enough demand for the moment. Why? imo:

- the game is still young, there is not enough players to buy what industrialists produce and T1 ore is abundant. Will there be enough players to consume all that ore later?

- there is not enough destruction, the pvp is not fully developped, technically and socially. There is no big entitys, alliances, and no wars afaik. 

- about destruction itself: elements cannot be destroyed, pvp only make elements transit from a player to another. This seams to be the main problem, but we must remember that we are in a finite world. If NQ makes elements destructible, is it really good in the long run? Will they gives us fresh new ores to mine and rebuild what we want? (new systems, asteroids belts, etc) 

 

For the industries, I don't like the fact that when we can build basic T1 elements like engine S, we can in fact build everything. Once we set up a basic industry (10x each machine), we're good to go and can build every items in the game with no constraints except the required ore of course. There is no technological research, we can build everything everywhere with any character, the ore spread is not sufficient.

Another thing is that it's too easy to build large ships, all piloting elements require only T1 ores even at the biggest size, with the exception of the T2 for the space fuel. All other ores are for non mandatory elements (hub, res node, surrogates, decorative elements, etc).

 

Game designers have to look at what the top players are doing, they must know what happen when the game is pushed to the limits. I don't know how they could balance a game by looking at average joes.

Top players, yes, for sure.  But not so much the corps. you cant balance the game from a player power vs corp power point of view. and there seems to be a bit of a focus atm on what the top corps are doing.

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5 minutes ago, Ater Omen said:

So, should DU, a civilization building MMO game, be balanced around solo players?

Imo yes, it should be balanced around solo players... but not balanced in a way that a solo player can DO everything and anything themselves, but more balanced as what a solo player CAN do by themselves.

 

Its far better imo to define and balance a game around what an individual should be able to achieve and do by himself, and then let people and groups and projects grow from that base

than

defining and balancing a game around a larger group and what they should be able to do together, and from that base try and define individual progression

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16 minutes ago, Ater Omen said:

So, should DU, a civilization building MMO game, be balanced around solo players?

Its the only way it can be,  Corps can be anything from 1 to 1000+ people.  

However, some serious and strong limits / rules are going to have to be put in to limit the power of a corp. Tbh i dont even know if NQ have realised this yet. With the game setup as is. the moment that taking over land hex's is a thing, we will have the potential for 1 org to take over and destroy everything that isnt them.   I mentioned above how this can be managed, but there will need to be something in place. as well as a war dec system, jez i dont even want to start on that one.  

Alter , have a look at the post i made an hour or so before this. it covers this and other stuff.  

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Yea, an org can control the traffic of an entire planet if there is enough members. For the territorys, as the cost increase is too high, one org cannot capture reliably every territorys of a planet, even 500 is too expensive. Creating multiple orgs or asking members to do it could be a solution, but it has security flaws that, I think, cannot be handled.

 

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7 minutes ago, Ater Omen said:

Yea, an org can control the traffic of an entire planet if there is enough members. For the territorys, as the cost increase is too high, one org cannot capture reliably every territorys of a planet, even 500 is too expensive. Creating multiple orgs or asking members to do it could be a solution, but it has security flaws that, I think, cannot be handled.

 

Imo the 500 cors for orgs is just silly, again going back to defining and balancing from solo standpoint.

Solo you have a skill to increase the amount of cores to what ever the number is 14 or something

Just have a skill that a player can train that adds active cores to the org they are in. Bigger orgs with well trained members can have bigger territory control

As the system is now every single player can create an personal org and have 500 cores, and the biggest org of them all, also 500 cores

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1 hour ago, Ater Omen said:

I'm speaking about capturing 500 territorys, not having 500 cores.

Yea im sorry, you have probably lost me

im not sure what capturing 500 hexes and the cost of that has to do with game balancing being centered around large orgs or single players

im probably misunderstanding the point you are making 

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30 minutes ago, ZeeckZero said:

Yea im sorry, you have probably lost me

im not sure what capturing 500 hexes and the cost of that has to do with game balancing being centered around large orgs or single players

im probably misunderstanding the point you are making 

Yea sorry, I was speaking about the current rules to limit the power of an organization mentionned by @Maxnano. What is interesting is that even if an org mined all the T1 of Alioth and sold everything to bots, it could pay for only about 700 territorys. Alioth has more than 250k territorys and other planets have an average of 40k territorys.

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To those "solo" players that have problems with industry and orgs: you are doing it wrong.

 

I have like 30 L assemblies running 24/7 + 10 that I switch to whatever I need for my ship ambitions from time to time. I play with my wife, 4 hours per day or so since release. I don't dig, I buy and sell. If you can't handle it, design it, calculate and make a profit it's not a game problem it's your problem. Orgs ? Who cares what "orgs" have ? How does that affect you ? Any org with wealth X and amount of players Y have can only provide X/Y to each player and that's not much IMHO.

 

Can't design and build a single t1-t5 all factory for your own needs ? Your problem, not the game problem. It's a bit of chore connecting links but what the hell stops you from doing it ? Need ore dig it, don't wanna dig - buy it. Don't have the iskies ? Be smart and you will have it. Can't figure it out ? Dig, someone has to.

 

Remember that warp beacon is not something every average joe should have on his space station for personal use.

 

Rich will be richer, poor will be poorer. That's not the game problem, it's CAPITALISM. You can't have "open market" economy without capitalism.

 

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Easy implementation of elemental damage would be that each unit has its max hp reduced each time it is repaired. 

if it starts a 1000/1000 then you repair it from 500/1000 there is some RNG and maybe a quality of repair calc and it loses a % off the top then is 923/923. 

until some point it does not function or is so weak that bumping a pillow makes it inoperable. 

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