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Is 100% repair meant to stay? Would very much like a Dev comment.


Anomaly

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With the current 100% repair rate, PVP will not be the resource sink the game needs. Instead, when territory warfare begins, it will insure that the groups who win in the beginning will gain a materials advantage that will only grow with each new, easier, win.  

 

I made the suggestion that elements damaged by weapons have a less than 100% repair chance and submitted it to the voting list. It never got moderator approval in spite of there being no similar suggestions.  I thought my suggestion might have been overlooked or worded incorrectly so I rephrased the suggestion and submitted again. This time it was simply deleted. 

 

Now I am very worried. Is the current repair system meant to stay as it is?  If so, the game will not be worth playing shortly after territory warfare and atmospheric PVP are introduced. A few groups will dominate and only grow stronger in relation to everyone else. 

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I am not a dev, but I do agree that elements damaged by weapon fire should either not be fully repairable or require some extra effort to repair fully. Such extra effort might involve requiring use of a Repair Unit and relevant parts as repair material.

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4 hours ago, Anomaly said:

With the current 100% repair rate, PVP will not be the resource sink the game needs. Instead, when territory warfare begins, it will insure that the groups who win in the beginning will gain a materials advantage that will only grow with each new, easier, win.  

 

I made the suggestion that elements damaged by weapons have a less than 100% repair chance and submitted it to the voting list. It never got moderator approval in spite of there being no similar suggestions.  I thought my suggestion might have been overlooked or worded incorrectly so I rephrased the suggestion and submitted again. This time it was simply deleted. 

 

Now I am very worried. Is the current repair system meant to stay as it is?  If so, the game will not be worth playing shortly after territory warfare and atmospheric PVP are introduced. A few groups will dominate and only grow stronger in relation to everyone else. 

The main thing I want to do in this game is PvP.  If the game needs a resource sink, please dont make it PVP.  Let something else be your resource sink.  If PvP becomes too expensive then average players will simply avoid PvP because they cant afford to participate.

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32 minutes ago, Underhook said:

The main thing I want to do in this game is PvP.  If the game needs a resource sink, please dont make it PVP.  Let something else be your resource sink.  If PvP becomes too expensive then average players will simply avoid PvP because they cant afford to participate.

Do you really think, that 5 years from now, every element that has ever been created, should still be in the game, and fully functional, regardless of how many times it has been shot, blown up, repaired? 

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21 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

PvP is by definition a resource sink.

 The definition of Player v's Player is probably something like.  "2 or more players compete in competition against each other".  There are PvP games that are not resource sinks.  If in doubt, please consider looking up the word "definition" in a dictionary.

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Context here being a game where PvP equals combat. So if in doubt, always try to apply context when trying to compose a smart answer.

And if you think my tone is snarky, it is because I find it hilarious having a PvP'er complaining about loosing stuff. Just try imagining how players who are involuntary victims of PvP feel then.

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Why reinvent the wheel ?

 

Look at other "full loot" PVP MMOs. You don't get 100% of what you kill, you get 50%. The other 50% is "lost forever". That's how you put items out of the market and keep economy healthy.

 

PVP currently is not as popular and some people will never do PVP anyway but if PVP doesn't become a thing this game is dead anyway so it doesn't matter how you do a resource sink.

 

If PVP becomes a thing, like corps battle over territory - two corps collide with their fleet, 80% of one of the corps will die. That's huge resource sink.

 

Every now and then there will be people blowing other people up that's another sink.

 

Once PVE becomes a thing then we may lose stuff in PVE too (so risk vs reward) that's a resource sink too.

 

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@Underhook   Unfortunately, if the game is to have stakes more meaningful than the latest battle royale game there has to be loss.  You can still have fun in PVP by only flying what you don't mind losing. 

 

The problem with the current system is that even small PVP losses give too much to the winners and remove nothing from the game. It insures that PVP will stagnate as the strong will only get stronger and Industry will stagnate as not nearly enough material is being removed from the game.   In Eve, industrial organizations were able to defeat PVP focused groups by out producing them. This will not be a viable tactic in Dual. 

 

I encourage everyone who reads this to go check out what the devs seem to be planning on their vote page.  https://upvote.dualuniverse.game/suggestions/122873/elements-wearing-off-getting-permadestroyed#comment212685

 

The general element wear they are planning is nowhere near strong enough to prevent the PVP resource pooling I described. Should it changed and made strong enough, it would be too punishing for wrecks.  

 

I've been very excited for where this game is going up until this point. Now it seems like the feature I have been mining and building toward might quickly turn to garbage. 

 

I will not tell you what to say but please go and comment.  Should they implement territory PVP with nothing stronger than wear and tear in place, only a hard roll back will fix the power imbalance they will create. 

 

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On 10/10/2020 at 2:10 AM, Anomaly said:

With the current 100% repair rate, PVP will not be the resource sink the game needs. Instead, when territory warfare begins, it will insure that the groups who win in the beginning will gain a materials advantage that will only grow with each new, easier, win.  

 

I made the suggestion that elements damaged by weapons have a less than 100% repair chance and submitted it to the voting list. It never got moderator approval in spite of there being no similar suggestions.  I thought my suggestion might have been overlooked or worded incorrectly so I rephrased the suggestion and submitted again. This time it was simply deleted. 

 

Now I am very worried. Is the current repair system meant to stay as it is?  If so, the game will not be worth playing shortly after territory warfare and atmospheric PVP are introduced. A few groups will dominate and only grow stronger in relation to everyone else. 

Regarding large orgs and control - the universe is vast, there will be areas that big orgs will own, and areas where smaller groups will survive.  Also who says all these big orgs are just going to strike out and wage war as soon as pvp starts.  Most big orgs I know do not have that plan.  Also with the plans for territory control potentially creating massive player made safe zones, some parts of planets like Alioth wont even be worth attacking by anyone but the largest orgs.  Pvp / terri wars isnt going to be the carnage a lot of people think it is.  I promise you, the majority of players ARE NOT waiting for pvp to go on some terri claiming rampage.  

I also dont have an issue with org owning massive parts of the game.  What is wrong with 'nations' owning parts of planets, I WANT that. What do you think countries are???  Civilisation is built of large communities, not solos living in holes.  I want superpowers, I was massive wars but I dont think that means there is no place for the little guy (and girl).

Regarding repairs, we have no idea what NQ have planned, as I have said before I think they have it setup the way it is to allow player expansion, so we have some sort of foundation before the fighting starts.

My solution is add some sort of 'condition' to all elements, when they are damaged the condition goes down and isnt repaired, when it goes below a percentage (say 50%) then the element loses performance, when it hits zero it need replacing.  This would solve a lot of issues, both pvp and crash damage mean something, elements will be lost, players can choose whether to be optimal and replace early or risk it, you could also add an high tier end game item - the reconditioner which could repair condition but it would require mats so might not always be possible.

EDIT - lol just read the above, seems it is there choice as well, I like it because to allows for player to make mistake, crash etc and not be stuck but elements will still disappear.

You could also add heavier condition damage to pvp, which could even lead to full destruction, also add destruction of a % of cargo etc  For all we know, this is what NQ have planned

I DO understand you concerns though and they are valid.

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@Moosegun     There is no problem at all with organizations having power or controlling vast amount of territory.  But that isn't what I'm talking about. 

 

I'm talking about the power imbalance that will grow with every 100% loot victory - gradual wear and tear or not.   To be clear - I was in some large organizations in Eve. I might end up joining one of the winning teams in Dual. It would still suck though.   Fun in games like this comes from fights where both sides have a chance to win. As planned, the fights will quickly become one sided and will stay that way. 

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25 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

@Moosegun     There is no problem at all with organizations having power or controlling vast amount of territory.  But that isn't what I'm talking about. 

 

I'm talking about the power imbalance that will grow with every 100% loot victory - gradual wear and tear or not.   To be clear - I was in some large organizations in Eve. I might end up joining one of the winning teams in Dual. It would still suck though.   Fun in games like this comes from fights where both sides have a chance to win. As planned, the fights will quickly become one sided and will stay that way. 

Cool, what do you think about adding additional condition damage in pvp up to potentially full destruction.  For example if you keep hitting the element after if is destroyed is take condition damage?  Would that work?  Would also be more realistic and make precision kills important for pirates

Every pvp hit does damage and small amount of condition damage
When destroy all damage goes on condition

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@Moosegun Now that's an idea what would solve the issue I'm talking about while cutting folks some slack for misjudging the surface height of Thades.

 

If PVPers want to leave most of their target in repairable condition, they will have much more difficult time as they will have to pick their shots carefully so as little damage as possible bleeds past the 0% percent mark.  In a full blown organization vs organization scrap this would very tough to do. 

 

It would also work with what NQ seems to be planning. 

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6 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

@Moosegun Now that's an idea what would solve the issue I'm talking about while cutting folks some slack for misjudging the surface height of Thades.

 

If PVPers want to leave most of their target in repairable condition, they will have much more difficult time as they will have to pick their shots carefully so as little damage as possible bleeds past the 0% percent mark.  In a full blown organization vs organization scrap this would very tough to do. 

 

It would also work with what NQ seems to be planning. 

There are probably multiple ways. One thing I would like is a durability stat. So everytime your element goes to 0% it reduces its durability by 1.  certain engines like military could start at 10 durability.  Regular ones like 5.  So it would have to be shot and destroyed 10 times before its "unusable".  so it keeps the current repair meta in there, but also changes value of elements being traded based on their durability stat too.

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1 minute ago, JohnnyTazer said:

There are probably multiple ways. One thing I would like is a durability stat. So everytime your element goes to 0% it reduces its durability by 1.  certain engines like military could start at 10 durability.  Regular ones like 5.  So it would have to be shot and destroyed 10 times before its "unusable".  so it keeps the current repair meta in there, but also changes value of elements being traded based on their durability stat too.

Yes mate, that is what I was suggesting, alongside what NQ appear to be planning.  The additional element was to add more destruction to pvp, which I 100% agree is needed.  More destruction in large scale pvp needs to reduce military strength of the forces involved significantly enough to make them think twice but this solution would not effect skilled pirates. 

@anomoly did you just create a forum thread that resulted in some consensus, gg

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On 10/11/2020 at 7:43 AM, XKentX said:

Look at other "full loot" PVP MMOs. You don't get 100% of what you kill, you get 50%. The other 50% is "lost forever". That's how you put items out of the market and keep economy healthy.

This

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@Moosegun     I think most people realize this is something that needs to happen but , like myself, thought the full loot was just a work in progress an that NQ would have a better system in place before territory warfare is implemented. 

 

I hope someone from NQ will see this thread and realize that their current plan needs some improvement. 

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12 hours ago, Anomaly said:

@Moosegun     I think most people realize this is something that needs to happen but , like myself, thought the full loot was just a work in progress an that NQ would have a better system in place before territory warfare is implemented. 

 

I hope someone from NQ will see this thread and realize that their current plan needs some improvement. 

It 100% is work in progress, that is why I am not that stressed about it yet.  As i have said before, i think NQ want us to have a period of calm to build, this is frustrating for the pvp crowd but it is going to remain a placeholder until it is ready, only really then can we judge.  We dont need it yet, because the only pvp in the game is either consensual or noobs getting killed like fish in a barrel.  The market is a LONG way from getting saturated for product, I am still only playing against bots on several markets for key items, people are still buying lots and lots of things.

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On 10/10/2020 at 1:45 AM, Underhook said:

The main thing I want to do in this game is PvP.  If the game needs a resource sink, please dont make it PVP.  Let something else be your resource sink.  If PvP becomes too expensive then average players will simply avoid PvP because they cant afford to participate.

You absolutely should be able to lose elements from PvP. PvP should have very real risk. In my opinion, that's what makes it fun.

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12 minutes ago, Orangeferret said:

You absolutely should be able to lose elements from PvP. PvP should have very real risk. In my opinion, that's what makes it fun.

Did I say you shouldn't be able to lose anything.  If I did I didn't mean it.   Some loss if fine but If I have to spend 100 hours mining for every 10 mins of PvP, that would suck.  To get good at PvP you have to lose ships.  If losses are too expensive people wont participate and only the glitchers, exploiters and cheaters will be able to afford to do PvP and they will end up really good at it because they can afford to lose ships.

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Just now, Underhook said:

Did I say you shouldn't be able to lose anything.  If I did I didn't mean it.   Some loss if fine but If I have to spend 100 hours mining for every 10 mins of PvP, that would suck.  To get good at PvP you have to lose ships.  If losses are too expensive people wont participate and only the glitchers, exploiters and cheaters will be able to afford to do PvP and they will end up really good at it because they can afford to lose ships.

why does everyone talk about this game like the only way to play is mining......... there a loads of other paths already (goods trading, manufacturing, designing, haulage, lua coder, commodity trader), and more to come

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On 10/10/2020 at 5:18 PM, JohnnyTazer said:

Do you really think, that 5 years from now, every element that has ever been created, should still be in the game, and fully functional, regardless of how many times it has been shot, blown up, repaired? 

no, I dont

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14 minutes ago, Underhook said:

Did I say you shouldn't be able to lose anything.  If I did I didn't mean it.   Some loss if fine but If I have to spend 100 hours mining for every 10 mins of PvP, that would suck.  To get good at PvP you have to lose ships.  If losses are too expensive people wont participate and only the glitchers, exploiters and cheaters will be able to afford to do PvP and they will end up really good at it because they can afford to lose ships.

Misunderstood, then. Yeah it will have to be tweaked but that's part of game balancing which is a separate discussion.

 

Having said that, there will always be orgs with people interested in different areas of the game. In EvE corps have people interested in trading, others mining, others setting up industry, others theorycrafting ships, and others doing the actual PvP.

 

I hope there is some reason for people to join large corps and/or alliances, which would lead to large fights.

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1 minute ago, Moosegun said:

why does everyone talk about this game like the only way to play is mining......... there a loads of other paths already (goods trading, manufacturing, designing, haulage, lua coder, commodity trader), and more to come

I guess because its the quickest and easiest way to make money when we 1st start and it requires no cash up front.  Also because I think a lot of players are worried about premium ore's running out, so, there is a rush on.  Also its hard to compete in manufacture until we get our skills up and so its pretty much essential to mine our own ores for our manufacture to keep the cost low enough.  Maybe I'm wrong?  Just how it seems to me at present.  I actually don't like mining.  I enjoy ship building and I hope PvP.  

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