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NQ, Griefers are a problem


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14 hours ago, ElGesem said:

What is the problem here?

Being a dick just for the sake of being a dick is a problem.
In RL ppl like this will eventually suffer very severe consequences. But in this game there is no mechanic possible to counter this.

Let's say some other example:
Let's say a lone new player gets a territory on the sanctuary moon without any neighbors. Then he gets on the bad side of some huge org, and they decide to claim all 6 hexes around him and build a 100m wall all around his hex.
On the "paper" they are allowed to do this.
But what is the experience result for that player?
Should NQ just stand idle while that player is boxed in?

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31 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

 Unsurprised that it will incur a manual solution rather than technical. 

 

NQ still thinks that players will be able to understand what does or does not go and they seem to not want to see that there will be those who'd rather spend hours harassing someone by building a wall around their base than actually play the game. These people will even happily spend $20 to have a throw away account/character in case they get caught.

 

This is also a direct result of previous actions by NQ, "designed" to prevent a similar form of griefing, which have made a TU both easy to make and very cheap to buy.

It's what happens when you "fix" or work around the result instead of the root cause of an issue.

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42 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

Unsurprised that it will incur a manual solution rather than technical

This is quite important on "don't be a dick" situations.
If they lay the rules technically, ppl can read them and go around them in some exception.

This way ppl will need to stay away from "being a dick" to be on the clear.
If they go near "being a dick" NQ can already take action.

"The best way to not go south is to go north."

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1 hour ago, GraXXoR said:

SO, FINALLY, THERE YOU HAVIT: NQ official response.. TBH, I’m equal parts surprised and not. Surprised they wrote their rules so clearly. Unsurprised that it will incur a manual solution rather than technical. 

 

  • Walls must not be placed with the intention of interfering with neighboring players. When players can not agree, the final decision on what is and is not acceptable is decided on a case-by-case basis by Novaquark staff.
     

Expected, but really dumb. 

 

NQ can barely handle the basic support tickets, never mind policing player disputes about what is a "legal" use of the tools they programmed. The honor system doesn't work at any sort of meaningful scale. I also like how a GM gets to decide on what a player's intention is. I'm sure that will be super fair. 

 

I think they'd rather ignore the problem as "a few bad apples, we'll figure it out later" because they have no clue how to implement a technical solution without derailing their dev schedule. 

 

"We'll handle it case-by-case" is another way to say they aren't going to really handle it, lol. 

 

This "emergent" gameplay isn't going very well for them haha...it's almost like they didn't ever think about how players would use/abuse the tools they built, which is baffling for any MMO design. 

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32 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

This is quite important on "don't be a dick" situations.
If they lay the rules technically, ppl can read them and go around them in some exception.

This way ppl will need to stay away from "being a dick" to be on the clear.
If they go near "being a dick" NQ can already take action.

"The best way to not go south is to go north."

Except this is actually a terrible way of thinking about rules. The more specific and technical rules are, the better because it leaves no room for interpretation. "Don't build walls in adjacent tiles to adversely affect neighboring players" is infinitely better than "don't be a dick" because that the threshold of "being a dick" is going to vary wildly from player to player. A person can realistically say that it's a dick move to blow up a tiny, unarmed hauler, but that is absolutely not an infraction against the rules. There are far more ways to argue and circumvent "being a dick" than a specific, clearly worded ruling.

 

Ideally, it will become difficult or impossible to take an exploitive action that goes against the design of the game as time goes on, but until then, NQ should endeavor to be as clear and technical as possible in rulings.

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1 minute ago, michaelk said:

This "emergent" gameplay isn't going very well for them haha...it's almost like they didn't ever think about how players would use/abuse the tools they built, which is baffling for any MMO design. 

 

As I said before, I don't think JC has been griefed enough. He talked about games he's played - and I've never heard him say "Yeah I played ARK" or any other open world full loot pvp game.

 

Had he played ANY of these sort of games, he would know that grief and salt mining are business as usual.  

 

Everything that can be used to grief will be. Every cheese tactic will be used. In every open world full loot pvp game the player who refuses to use every possible tactic to their advantage will lose to one that has no such scruples. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, joaocordeiro said:

Being a dick just for the sake of being a dick is a problem.
In RL ppl like this will eventually suffer very severe consequences. But in this game there is no mechanic possible to counter this.

Let's say some other example:
Let's say a lone new player gets a territory on the sanctuary moon without any neighbors. Then he gets on the bad side of some huge org, and they decide to claim all 6 hexes around him and build a 100m wall all around his hex.
On the "paper" they are allowed to do this.
But what is the experience result for that player?
Should NQ just stand idle while that player is boxed in?

Yes they should. If anyone wants to be a dick in the game it's their choice, there is no rule not to be a dick in terms and agreements to DU. 

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1 minute ago, ElGesem said:

Yes they should. If anyone wants to be a dick in the game it's their choice, there is no rule not to be a dick in terms and agreements to DU. 

Yeah, lets prepare the waters for Eve warfare motto "i will be fing you up so long that you leave the game" -.-  
Letter of law above spirit of law and so on. I got you. But i disagree with you on most fundamental level. For me its simple. If someone is a dick just to be a dick, that person should be kicked out. If someone is a dick and squirts game mechanics boundaries to f someone up he should be kicked. No society should tolerate such person. Kick him before he kicks other people out of game for no other reason than to have satisfaction of "winning" by any way possible.

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5 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Yeah, lets prepare the waters for Eve warfare motto "i will be fing you up so long that you leave the game" -.-  
Letter of law above spirit of law and so on. I got you. But i disagree with you on most fundamental level. For me its simple. If someone is a dick just to be a dick, that person should be kicked out. If someone is a dick and squirts game mechanics boundaries to f someone up he should be kicked. No society should tolerate such person. Kick him before he kicks other people out of game for no other reason than to have satisfaction of "winning" by any way possible.

Unfortunately for you, no pvp game operates in the way you would like.

 

Some private servers - sure. 

 

The whole point of DU is that it's about the creation of an artificial society - there is no law beyond the one you make. 

 

This is still the early game and there will come a time when this game is played much like EVE where the truly civilized areas aren't 1.0 or low sec - but 0.0 where the rules and behavior is enforced by the corporation that controls that space. 

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1 minute ago, Zamiel7 said:

Except this is actually a terrible way of thinking about rules. The more specific and technical rules are, the better because it leaves no room for interpretation. "Don't build walls in adjacent tiles to adversely affect neighboring players" is infinitely better than "don't be a dick" because that the threshold of "being a dick" is going to vary wildly from player to player. A person can realistically say that it's a dick move to blow up a tiny, unarmed hauler, but that is absolutely not an infraction against the rules. There are far more ways to argue and circumvent "being a dick" than a specific, clearly worded ruling.

 

Ideally, it will become difficult or impossible to take an exploitive action that goes against the design of the game as time goes on, but until then, NQ should endeavor to be as clear and technical as possible in rulings.

As a general rule, I agree with you. Specially in RL.
But well-defined rules are only a requirement for must have game mechanics. Stuff that you need to do, in the daily based to play the game.
Like stop on the red sign.

 

But most things in life and some in game are not well-defined. Here are some examples:

 

"Spraying paint in to a surface"

There is no law that prevents you from spraying paint into a surface.

But if you do it in a way that damages stuff that is not yours there is.

But if that stuff has no value, like dirt, or stray plants, it's ok.

 

"Damaging a vehicle that belongs to someone else"

Everyone will say that the owner will be entitled to compensation.

But what is "damage"?

If I have butter on my fingers and live a mark on the surface, should I pay for a full paint?
If the vehicle is parked in the middle of the highway, should I be responsible?

In all cases in RL, a judge is required to interpret the law in that situation. Calculate the responsibility and the damages. Only after that, a rule can be applied.

 

Computer game are somewhat more easy to regularize. Because game mechanics have a limited number of outcomes in each action. So players assume that it is possible to create rules that cover the entire gameplay. It is not possible.

In this case digging dirt is allowed. While griefing players with blocking wall is not.
But what is a griefing wall? How many meters? How far away from the other territory?
Should NQ come up with a 5 variable equation?

But the problem is not the height of the wall. It's the "damage" it is causing to another player.

If the 2 players are ok with having a 100m wall dividing their territory, there is no issue in doing one.

But if one player feels like his gameplay was griefed he has the right to open a complaint.

NQ will look at his arguments and annalise his suffered "damage".

Then NQ will go to the player that caused the situation and ask for why the player did that.
If the player has a decent justification, like "L was leveling terrain for my L core" then NQ may try to find another solution, like offering a free TCU to the "offended"
If it was pure griefing. NQ may take action against the griefer.

For anyone doing digs and platforms from dirt. All you need to know is that you should get along with ppl around you.
If possible, don't block access to his stuff.
If you feel like he will not like it, go ask his opinion 1st.
If you really need to do it, try to make a deal with him.

For anyone attempting to make a complaint to NQ.
Try talking to the guy 1st, make sure he knows he is creating a problem to you.

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9 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Yeah, lets prepare the waters for Eve warfare motto "i will be fing you up so long that you leave the game" -.-  
Letter of law above spirit of law and so on. I got you. But i disagree with you on most fundamental level. For me its simple. If someone is a dick just to be a dick, that person should be kicked out. If someone is a dick and squirts game mechanics boundaries to f someone up he should be kicked. No society should tolerate such person. Kick him before he kicks other people out of game for no other reason than to have satisfaction of "winning" by any way possible.

I am sorry looks like I have missed the moment we assigned you as the voice of the society. I accept griefing as part of the game, other people do, but then come you and decide who is a dick and who should be kicked - from what the heck? : D 

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4 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Yeah, lets prepare the waters for Eve warfare motto "i will be fing you up so long that you leave the game" -.-  
Letter of law above spirit of law and so on. I got you. But i disagree with you on most fundamental level. For me its simple. If someone is a dick just to be a dick, that person should be kicked out. If someone is a dick and squirts game mechanics boundaries to f someone up he should be kicked. No society should tolerate such person. Kick him before he kicks other people out of game for no other reason than to have satisfaction of "winning" by any way possible.

But again, being a "dick" is totally subjective and has no value in actual rulings. I am loath to compare a video game to society because, despite certain people claiming the contrary, they are two completely different things when it comes to human behavior. Certain games straight up require you to engage in behavior that would be deemed sociopathic in society (e.g. killing someone in Among Us and then lying about it), and Dual Universe is no different. The only difference in DU is that there are more ways for players to interpret what the goal of the game is and some of the ways are in direct opposition to one another. The burden lies with NQ to deliver clear, focused rulings and develop the game in such a way that behavior they have deemed exploitive is impossible and/or punishable.

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Just now, Mordgier said:

The whole point of DU is that it's about the creation of an artificial society - there is no law beyond the one you make. 

 

This is still the early game and there will come a time when this game is played much like EVE where the truly civilized areas aren't 1.0 or low sec - but 0.0 where the rules and behavior is enforced by the corporation that controls that space. 

Here is the sad truth - self moderated irl societies works because if person piss everyone off enough, someone will finally kill/inprison that person and remove him from society for good. In DU the only one thing capable of removing unwanted but determine person is NQ. This means unless NQ do something chaos monger will always prevail and best one can hope for is "not loosing" to him. So in short we are missing crucial tool for building society and civilization - tool to remove unwanted members. No space will ever be even consider "safe".  

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1 minute ago, Zamiel7 said:

But again, being a "dick" is totally subjective

The extreme is not subjective. When you dig a wall, without any construct or any other reason, in front of a landing strip. You are objectively being a dick.
The border between being a dick and not being a dick can be subjective. That's why NQ is doing the ruling case by case.

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3 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Here is the sad truth - self moderated irl societies works because if person piss everyone off enough, someone will finally kill/inprison that person and remove him from society for good. In DU the only one thing capable of removing unwanted but determine person is NQ. This means unless NQ do something chaos monger will always prevail and best one can hope for is "not loosing" to him. So in short we are missing crucial tool for building society and civilization - tool to remove unwanted members. No space will ever be even consider "safe".  

 

That's called pvp and territory control and it's coming.

 

If you want to stay in the pve are, you do so with the asshats who you can't remove. That's the price you pay. for safety.

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3 minutes ago, ElGesem said:

I am sorry looks like I have missed the moment we assigned you as the voice of the society. I accept griefing as part of the game, other people do, but then come you and decide who is a dick and who should be kicked - from what the heck? : D 

Sorry man, but either you miss understand my post or trying to put tail on head or something. I replied to specific person, stated where we differ and show my feeling on the fundamental thing we differ on. Anything else is your over-interpretation. 

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2 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Can you be a litle more specific and say what time in the video and what words represent what you said?

Are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

Dual Universe :: Civilization Building Sci-Fi MMORPG

 

You BUILD the civilization. You are in frontier space. It is uncivilized by nature. Just like the wild west. It is your job to create and spread this civilization - how you do that is up to you - but I expect it to be spread with an iron fist.

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5 minutes ago, Mordgier said:

 

That's called pvp and territory control and it's coming.

 

If you want to stay in the pve are, you do so with the asshats who you can't remove. That's the price you pay. for safety.

Nope. Lets assume corp ABC will piss me off. They can kill me 100 times, but if i'm pissed enough, I will be coming back. Again. Again. Again. Again. Again. And again. They won't be able to prevent it. Only kill me times and times again. And i won't care. I will just keep coming back. And I will be cheeping out things from them. Again and again. The only thing what you will be able to do is to not lose more than you get by killing me. The only "positive" results they can achieve is stalemate. 

Edit: I hope nobody create "ABC" corp xD no connections to anything in game or outside are intended ;) 

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Just now, Elrood said:

Nope. Lets assume copr ABC will piss me off. They can kill me 100 times, but if i'm pissed enough, I will be coming back. Again. Again. Again. Again. Again. And again. They won't be able to prevent it. Only kill me times and times again. And i won't care. I will just keep coming back. And I will be cheeping out things from them. Again and again. The only thing what you will be able to do is to not lose more than you get by killing me. The only "positive" results they can achieve is stalemate. 

How do you intend to keep coming back my dearest friend when you have no territories and no constructs left in pvp space?

 

You're welcome to build up again on a pve world and fly over to a pvp area to get poded over and over if you so like.

 

You're acting like this is a problem that other games have not easily solved.

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Just now, Mordgier said:

How do you intend to keep coming back my dearest friend when you have no territories and no constructs left in pvp space?

 

You're welcome to build up again on a pve world and fly over to a pvp area to get poded over and over if you so like.

 

You're acting like this is a problem that other games have not easily solved.

Because I don't know any which solved it. Rust? Hell no. Eve? Not really, no. Atlas? No. Ark? Hell no. Which game has actually solved it?

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2 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Because I don't know any which solved it. Rust? Hell no. Eve? Not really, no. Atlas? No. Ark? Hell no. Which game has actually solved it?

EVE has it down pretty good. I have never lost any sleep over someone continuing to bring their ships to our space to be podded.

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1 minute ago, Mordgier said:

EVE has it down pretty good. I have never lost any sleep over someone continuing to bring their ships to our space to be podded.

Well, history will tell as they say ;) We disagree on interpretation of the same facts so yeah, discussion won't get us anywhere, we will see how it goes. 

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