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Proxie

NQ you need to fix PVP and ASAP!

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First let me say I support PVP completely. But its gotta change and asap in DU. Right now PVP in DU is nothing more than griefing other players, for the sake of griefing. I've watched a few streams of people get destroyed today in PVP. In all 12 encounters I saw, they were all dead before they knew what was happening. This is not fun. Fun PVP is a fight, where ships and skills are tested against one another. Someone wins and someone loses. The PVP moments I've seen and experienced in the game are not that at all. In all cases I've seen, PVP has been utterly one-sided and over in moments. There was so little opportunity for response, that I wouldn't even classify it as PVP at all.

 

There's no way in DU to understand or become experienced in ship-to-ship combat other than PVP. The people who got into PVP before you are so much better, with ships so much more focused on your death, that there's no real ramp up. You just die, and then get set back days or weeks. And the only way to improve is to do it again. That's if it's consensual. You might just want to progress in your projects, and need copper. Too bad. You're now engaged in PVP. Oh - you didn't dedicate yourself to learning PVP? Reset 2 weeks. Reset 10 days.

Nothing is engaging about this. It's so one-sided and bereft of interaction, it might as well be a bug or a glitch destroying your ship.

This has to change. If it stays like this, DU will be catering to an extreme niche of people who aren't nominally there to make use of all the creative tools - but instead will min/max ships designed for the sole purpose of murdering other people as efficiently as possible. That's fun only for those people. There aren't enough of those people to support the success of an MMO. No one watches two weeks of work put into a ship build disappear in an instant and thinks, "this is so much fun!"

 

Things that absolutely must be changed for the game to be successful.

  1. Weapon ranges needs to be reduced to no more than 2.5k. This forces all parties involved to have to actually fight each other in a proper battle.
  2. Weapon damage needs to be reduced by 75%. Right now it frankly doesn't matter what material you build your ship out of, because weapon damage is too high, and chews through everything. It makes building anything other than a layered box ship pointless.
  3. Space safe zone should be permanent and never removed for any reason. This will allow trade and civilization to grow. Players should not be forced into PVP if that's not what they are interested in.
  4. Planets in space safe zone should never have PVP either. For the same reasons as above. Players should not be forced into PVP if that's not what they are interested in. Having a single safe moon, is frankly a stupid idea. Lets put everyone to a moon, force them to deal with lag, over population, etc. Nope...people will legit just leave the game.
  5. Ship and Base shields need to be a thing. So players have proper defense.
  6. Ships moving over 10,000 should not be able to fire weapons.


Unless some serious changes are made to PVP in DU. The game will not be successful. As the CEO of NQ has stated on many streams this is a civilization game, not a PVP game. The Devs need to start making players fully aware of this. Unregulated PVP will completely ruin the game we all want.

 

Just look at what's happening now, players building walls at warp points to grief players using warp. This also needs to be fixed, and the players suspended for 30 days for doing it. NQ you need to draw a line in the sand when it comes to these issues now and set the place. 

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I completely agree with you 100%. You couldn't have said this better. If NQ doesn't actually start taking a good hard look at PVP and make some solid changes, the game is dead in beta. And that's just the blunt truth.

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The cancel sub button isn’t part of your account on DUs website, it’s in One of the two/three xsolla emails you got for subbing.  

 

This game is already the sequel to Worlds Adrift.  Complete with untested tech, item duplication bugs, and future safety nerfs when the devs don’t get the PvP engagement targets that they want.

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Please don't do to DU what FDev did to ED. Please do not cater to the carebears. FDev neutered the you-know-what in that game.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of reducing opportunities for senseless griefing and ganking. Personally, I favor team-based PvP. But anyway... ganking, attacking others who are weaker than you, either one-on-one or in groups, is a legitimate strategy in combat. Anti-PvPers (if what happened to ED is any lesson) tend to complain too loudly and too often about even the most minor PvP-like incidents. Eveerything they don't like becomes "ganking" or "griefing".

 

All I am saying is please tread lightly when attenuating PvP. For many people, PvP is fun. Give those who don't have the fortitude for PvP a place to be where they don't have to deal with conflict. But please, please make PvP compelling, preferably favor a team-based approach, and provide strong incentives to willingly participate in PvP.

 

Thank you.

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As I've said elsewhere, to make pvp fun and dynamic, we need to get rid of the cubes of death and the only way to do that is make voxels useless for defence and put all the durability in some elements like engines, weapons, seats and so on (as to not have clusters of decorative elements used as armour) and also not allow elements to be placed on elements so that some voxels need to be placed and we dont end up with ugly collections of just engines, ailerons and fuel tanks.

 

And I agree with a relative speed limit with a range of 2000kph between combatants.

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5 hours ago, Proxie said:

Things that absolutely must be changed for the game to be successful.

  1. Weapon ranges needs to be reduced to no more than 2.5k. This forces all parties involved to have to actually fight each other in a proper battle.
  2. Weapon damage needs to be reduced by 75%. Right now it frankly doesn't matter what material you build your ship out of, because weapon damage is too high, and chews through everything. It makes building anything other than a layered box ship pointless.
  3. Space safe zone should be permanent and never removed for any reason. This will allow trade and civilization to grow. Players should not be forced into PVP if that's not what they are interested in.
  4. Planets in space safe zone should never have PVP either. For the same reasons as above. Players should not be forced into PVP if that's not what they are interested in. Having a single safe moon, is frankly a stupid idea. Lets put everyone to a moon, force them to deal with lag, over population, etc. Nope...people will legit just leave the game.
  5. Ship and Base shields need to be a thing. So players have proper defense.
  6. Ships moving over 10,000 should not be able to fire weapons.

I agree that things needs to change but with your list of suggestions would PVP rarelly occure and that wouldnt be healthy for the game.

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13 minutes ago, Emptiness said:

Uhh. What does that mean?

You stop (explode?) if you run into a construct while warping. And the warp mechanic doesn't care if there is anything in the way - it just hurtles you to the beacon.

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Just now, Anonymous said:

You stop (explode?) if you run into a construct while warping. And the warp mechanic doesn't care if there is anything in the way - it just hurtles you to the beacon.

... so if someone locks a planet for a warp and there's a space station wall in the way, they explode?

 

that sounds like a major bug that needs to be addressed asap

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5 hours ago, Proxie said:

 

  1. Weapon ranges needs to be reduced to no more than 2.5k. 
  2. Weapon damage needs to be reduced by 75%.
  3. Ships moving over 10,000 should not be able to fire weapons.

 

lol

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*whips out forcefield wall... dies anyway(or do these do anything besides be glorified stairs for ships)

increase voxel/parts hp to talent max level(removing the talents at the same time, why do these talents even exist>:( ), and if forcefields dont do anything combat wise, make shield generators

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I am pro PVP. But it seems to me that the PVP players here crying, want everything one sided, and want no one to have any defense at all. Everyone would just be a glass cannon, and all fights will continue to just be pure ganking for no actual purpose. I want PVP. But not that kind of PVP. That just boring and frankly griefing. Right now PVP is complete trash, and everyone is using silly Borg Cubes. There is no proper defense for players who don't want to PVP at all. Which is insane to me.

PVP has to be balanced for both PVE players and PVP players. Or this game will fail. Period. The PVP we currently have and what is planned will ensure that DU is a niche game barely anyone at all actually plays. It will basically become Ark Survival in space and be pure trash. The suggestions provided by the OP are valid and actually address current problems. If you don't have the skills to fight ship vs ship...You don't need to be playing. Period.

I hate to break this to you all, but Economies do better without war in real life. The same applies to games. Maybe some of you need to go back and do basic High School Econ.

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6 hours ago, borzol said:

I agree that things needs to change but with your list of suggestions would PVP rarelly occure and that wouldnt be healthy for the game.

 

How would the suggestion not be healthy for the game? EvE uses similar rules. They have permanent space safe zones for players. All the other suggestions are valid and actually address issues. You people are just trying to completely ruin DU with niche gank style PVP. And god forbid when planet warfare starts, it will just become RUST in space and people will leave the game in mass. Not everyone wants to build shitty boxes and keep repairing shit 101 times when they spend weeks making stuff.

Right now the cost of building is too high to replace things. And voxels are basically paper, even if you build them out of pure gold.

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That's the thing. They never actually have proper suggestions to fix the real issues at hand. They just want everything one sided, and the game completely dead with just a bunch of niche PVP like you said. The thing is the PVPers here are the VAST minority. And even the CEO has stated on stream that DU is not a PVP game. It has PVP yes, but it's not even the man focus. He wants to see player cities, shipping, etc.

The suggestions I provided while extra, are actual balancing measures that would keep the game a live and teaming. I've played EvE for over 10 years. I can tell you first hand if it's not fixed now in early beta, the game is RIP.

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I think the 3 inner planets should remain pvp free.
But we definitely need atmo pvp on the other planets. (but please NQ warn us about the changes before those happen, and I mean US, all players, not just a few favorite players)

 

I think that any radar should have a bigger range than any weapon.
I think that weapons should not have an optimal range equal to max range. Weapon range should be big but with a near 0% CTH at max range.
And yea, damage could be a little lower.

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2 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

I think the 3 inner planets should remain pvp free.
But we definitely need atmo pvp on the other planets. (but please NQ warn us about the changes before those happen, and I mean US, all players, not just a few favorite players)

 

I think that any radar should have a bigger range than any weapon.
I think that weapons should not have an optimal range equal to max range. Weapon range should be big but with a near 0% CTH at max range.
And yea, damage could be a little lower.

Agree'd. That's all I was saying. I just gave percentages based on my opinion.
If they don't want to decrease weapon damage then they need to find a way to prevent flying boxes in space completely, and increase voxel HP x20. I want actually skill based PVP. Not this current trash.

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10 hours ago, HairballHacker said:

Please don't do to DU what FDev did to ED. Please do not cater to the carebears. FDev neutered the you-know-what in that game.

 

 

BZZZT... Wrong, but you probably thought you were right, because well, reasons....

 

 The game was meant to be playable offline. That was a promise form the earliest days of the DDFs.  When they tried to sneak the removal of offline mode from the roadmap, the forums went ballistic. 
 

thus they were forced to create private (solo) mode. Effectively an offline mode that still synced with the live galaxy for market prices etc.

 

what was controversial was that activities by the solo players also influenced the BGS (background simulation) without the soloists being at risk from the hankers. 
 

Despite your random aspersions and attempt to use another game as leverage to assert that your viewpoint here is somehow more valid, FDEV never nerfed anything. Elite was that way from day one at the request of the majority of kickstarter and alpha backers (pvp was listed by less than 20% of the players as a desirable feature in a mega -20k responses- vote. 
 

FDEV stubbornly refused constant and rabbid PvP faction requests to remove solo. 
 

So in actuality, they did the exact opposite of what you claim and never bowed down to player pressure on the role of PvP vs Solo/Private. 
 

fun fact: a lot of pvpers got pissed off because the only other people on their servers by the end of 2018 were other pvpers who would put up too much of a fight and not be the bend-over-and-take-it-like-a-man “soft target” players who just wanted to mine and trade with only a spot of NPC bother from time to time .. many PvPers left after that... shows their character. 
so you’re right, I hope NQ DON’T listen to the whiners and whingers and continue to make they game they promised. 
 

 

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I'm sure there will be changes but drastic changes aren't needed like unable to fire over 10k km/h and further limiting ranges, that doesn't make any sense. Main problem I see now is small ships with large radar and large weapons limit the variety of PvP, pros and cons of a combat setup are not balanced. It just isn't interesting when there is one tactic that works better than everything else.

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14 hours ago, Proxie said:

 

Things that absolutely must be changed for the game to be successful.

  1.  

I do not agree with a list that pretty much says "remove any sting from PVP without asking me to put in effort defending against it"

 

The glass walls that are being put up in safezones which destroy you when you fly into them and if there are walls built in space on warp landing zones (also in safe zones currently) then yes, I agree that would/should fall under griefing and NQ should both reimburse the victim and ban the griefer, there is no question or argument from me on that.

 

That said though, you fly with radar and you pay attention, that alone will take away a huge number of opportunities currently being offered to gankers.

Yes, weapons need a balance pass and yes, NQ needs to look at how they will restrict options like flying L guns on an XS core but at the same time, the way forward here is to offer gameplay options to those who consider themselves non combattant. And that means countermeasures like jamming or radar lock breaking mechanics. NQ also needs to provide more details on why you were killed, with what and by whom. This is information that allow you to build experience, learn and get better.

 

PVP is part of this game, you can't go around basically asking NQ to nerf PVP into the ground because you want to do your thing without having to worry and not put in any effort to counter a possible attack. That is just as spineless as building walls in space IMO..

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1 hour ago, Haunty said:

I'm sure there will be changes but drastic changes aren't needed like unable to fire over 10k km/h and further limiting ranges, that doesn't make any sense. Main problem I see now is small ships with large radar and large weapons limit the variety of PvP, pros and cons of a combat setup are not balanced. It just isn't interesting when there is one tactic that works better than everything else.

^^ This right here is what matters. Most of you In here need to shut the fuck up. And stop speaking for the "pvpers" because you don't know shit. It's not even 3 weeks into beta.  The "pvpers" want a more balanced system too. Problem is we cant do anything right now, we've already let NQ know. Our job is to BREAK IT when they release stuff in pvp, to show what needs fixed.  Showing these OP metas is a good thing. That way we can point It out. But be constructive about it, and dont cry like if it's not fix in 2 days the world is going to end. Fucking bitches i swear.....

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What is really tiring is people not understand one of the most basic concepts in human decency: different people like different things. 

 

This isn't directed at anyone specifically, but something I've seen in most recent PVP-related threads. 

 

You can call people that want building (in this civilization building sandbox) to be safer "carebears"...but that just makes you look like angsty teens that get enraged by the concept that some players like different things. "Those weakling cowards don't want to take risks or have conflict" -- it's often a baseless value judgement about their character or masculinity.

 

Really tiresome and boring. Them doing what they want doesn't take anything away from you. 

 

Do I think PVP should be a big part of the game? Obviously. The fringes of space should be dangerous and wild. If you want to create a violent pirate cult, great. Should said cult be able to attack people in the core of civilized space with impunity? Uh, no. 

 

The thing is...this conversation about PVP is going to keep going for the life of the game. PVP isn't bad. Building isn't bad. Both are required for the game to work. 

 

If you don't have an open mind about the balance this game needs to strike, you're going to be sad.

 

If you don't have an open mind in general and become hostile because this video game company isn't doing what you want...well, DU would be much better without you...

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