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NQ Pls address in the near future.


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4 hours ago, michaelk said:

If NQ wants to build a rust-style game because they believe player conflict will drive engagement, so be it...but then they can't really advertise it as a "build civilization and be whatever you want" sort of experience.

This discussion has been around pretty much since pre alpha. 

Some ppl think that players will unite and create safe havens, with government and police. 

Others, like me, think this will be like rust or worse. 

 

But it will be a player made civilization. We just dont know if its a civilization like startrek or like Apocalipse now Camboja's indians.

 

There was another road to this... NQ could implement PVP and security zones with NPCs. 

 

But that was out of the table from day 1....

 

I will be here from day -7 of beta to the end of DU, ripping and tearing until there is nothing left. 

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It’s always fun seeing the PvPers fight for global (universal?) PvP. 
 

In elite, the PvP crowd keep pushing, year after year, to abolish solo mode (solo mode is where you can only meet NPCs) and private group mode (invite only)...

 

there was a vote on ED which had over 10,000 responses about preferred roles.

 

exploration, trading, mining were on their own, right out in front with piracy and PvP were miles behind. Yet the PvPers were/are there like mosquitos that don’t go away, trying to force their gameplay style on everyone else. 
 

The seal clubbing (PvPers against noobs) got so bad that FDEV were forced to create a noob only region that further divided the players into separate sandboxes, to the point where you can fly for days and not meet a single soul...


In ED PvP is pointless for anyone not 100% invested in that gameplay style because PvP centric builds will destroy anything even remotely geared towards an actual in game trade like mining or NPC bounty hunting and the only recourse is to keep jumping away from them repeatedly, which gets old real quick...

 

In the end, it just turns into a toxic farce with the small minority that comprises the PvPers trying to force non PvPers to fight them... and complaining when they are only accompanied by their fellow PvPers (Who they won’t fight because the potential mutual damage incurred and time lost fighting a similarly armed opponent in a PvP centric specialized build would be considered a waste) with no willing victims.

 

i would be curious to know what percentage of players comprise the PvP centric player base in this game, but I suspect it would be less than 50%. 

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13 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

It’s always fun seeing the PvPers fight for global (universal?) PvP. 
 

In elite, the PvP crowd keep pushing, year after year, to abolish solo mode (solo mode is where you can only meet NPCs) and private group mode (invite only)...

 

there was a vote on ED which had over 10,000 responses about preferred roles.

 

exploration, trading, mining were on their own, right out in front with piracy and PvP were miles behind. Yet the PvPers were/are there like mosquitos that don’t go away, trying to force their gameplay style on everyone else. 
 

The seal clubbing (PvPers against noobs) got so bad that FDEV were forced to create a noob only region that further divided the players into separate sandboxes, to the point where you can fly for days and not meet a single soul...


In ED PvP is pointless for anyone not 100% invested in that gameplay style because PvP centric builds will destroy anything even remotely geared towards an actual in game trade like mining or NPC bounty hunting and the only recourse is to keep jumping away from them repeatedly, which gets old real quick...

 

In the end, it just turns into a toxic farce with the small minority that comprises the PvPers trying to force non PvPers to fight them... and complaining when they are only accompanied by their fellow PvPers (Who they won’t fight because the potential mutual damage incurred and time lost fighting a similarly armed opponent in a PvP centric specialized build would be considered a waste) with no willing victims.

 

i would be curious to know what percentage of players comprise the PvP centric player base in this game, but I suspect it would be less than 50%. 

This is just anecdotal so I'm not preaching it as fact. But I ran with a small group during alpha. Some guys I knew from playing other games (dayz, gta 5 roleplay, etc) so not all of them were huge hardcore pvp games. Every single one of them quit during alpha and all cited the same reason (no pvp, game is boring, bored of building) they all said they would come back for beta or at least release because they did invest money. I'm in the process of trying to get them back now there is a larger pvp zone. My guess is the number is a lot higher than 50% that people want at least SOME TYPE of pvp, as pvp makes the world have meaning. If nothing ever gets destroyed (talking to you elements) by release we will have millions of engines and no one will need to buy one ever. 

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5 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

This is just anecdotal so I'm not preaching it as fact. But I ran with a small group during alpha. Some guys I knew from playing other games (dayz, gta 5 roleplay, etc) so not all of them were huge hardcore pvp games. Every single one of them quit during alpha and all cited the same reason (no pvp, game is boring, bored of building) they all said they would come back for beta or at least release because they did invest money. I'm in the process of trying to get them back now there is a larger pvp zone. My guess is the number is a lot higher than 50% that people want at least SOME TYPE of pvp, as pvp makes the world have meaning. If nothing ever gets destroyed (talking to you elements) by release we will have millions of engines and no one will need to buy one ever. 

Quite possibly. Without having a proper, official poll with a large Response rate. It will be ahrd to say. 
 

also, the no PvP was why many stopped playing elite, too. 
 

they used fly around the noob zone and shoot all the beginners. When the beginners all quit open and moved in to solo, the PvPers whined for a bit and then moved on to other games. 
 

poor souls. 

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If there's no PvP or territory warfare then there won't be anything to do in this game. A lot of EVE players are coming over because they expect this will be EVE 2.0, and I do as well. EVE has player-made safe zones, so let the players handle it here, which they eventually will. I'm not interested in the game artificially limiting the one thing that gives everything else purpose.

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Just think of them as pirates.

 

And aren't there mechanics in the game already that balance that kinda thing? For example if they're using a big L or M ship, then you can outrange them with S / XS ship with if you guys have similar weapons / radars (you'll need a gunner of course). And if they're using small ships, just make bigger ships that can outtank them.

 

Not to mention radars, can't you see them from 400km away (way outside any gun's range) already?

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9 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

And aren't there mechanics in the game already that balance that kinda thing?

No. 

If you have the biggest range (L elements) with the smallest counter range (XS core) with the highest acelaration(cube full of engines), you can maintain range and shoot without being shot until your ammo runs out or your enemy is dead. 

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18 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

No. For S and XS targets, the radar identification happens below railgun range. 

My bad, meant to say "see" instead of "identify", fixed my post earlier

 

14 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

No. 

If you have the biggest range (L elements) with the smallest counter range (XS core) with the highest acelaration(cube full of engines), you can maintain range and shoot without being shot until your ammo runs out or your enemy is dead. 

Yeah, that's what I meant by outtanking them with larger ship (because you'd be accelerating already when you're heading towards them), and if anyone can't outmaneuver them (say they're really fast like you said) if they're doing that can't anyone just come with similar XS cheese-cube or multiple if they have friends / orgs? 

 

Plus if the guy in the XS core ship is soloing then they wouldn't be able to use larger guns / radars and anyone with radar + gunner can outrange them

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4 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

My bad, meant to say "see" instead of "identify", fixed my post earlier

 

Yeah, that's what I meant by outtanking them with larger ship (because you'd be accelerating already when you're heading towards them), and if anyone can't outmaneuver them (say they're really fast like you said) if they're doing that can't anyone just come with similar XS cheese-cube or multiple if they have friends / orgs? 

And who in their right mind would acelarate against a battle cruiser? 

Pirates match the target velocity and slowly get within range of using their wapons. And stay at that range, compensating the target's attenpts to run away or get closer. 

 

Even if the target has friends, the pirate only has to attack the closest one, and maintain range. 

If some other gets closer, he switches target and does the same. 

If that battle does not produce results, he can just retreat without ever risking his ship. 

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The fundamental aspect that hooks people to the game is making it from the ground, into space, and then making it to another planet.

 

 If they disable the ability to experience that hook to the normal MMOer/Space Engineers/Factorio player, and have any mistakes be "internal" ones to learn from.  They’ll lose pretty much all retention, except for people who join sponsored by an org day one.   (Pretty much a suicide for the game when it comes to player retention).

 

 Essentially the worst idea is to have a safe zone smaller than 3 planets.  Since that gives an option for your first newbie target.

 

—————

 

I know I would not have bothered with the game if I could not set an objective at least as small as moving to another planet.  And I sure as hell would not have bothered to be a newbie in a full loot region, on my first newbie goal.

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2 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

If you have the biggest range (L elements) with the smallest counter range (XS core) with the highest acelaration(cube full of engines), you can maintain range and shoot without being shot until your ammo runs out or your enemy is dead. 

If targeting range depends on the size of the core of the targeted but not the targeting, I can see that as a possible imbalance. I expect changes to come at some point.

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3 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

And who in their right mind would acelarate against a battle cruiser? 

Pirates match the target velocity and slowly get within range of using their wapons. And stay at that range, compensating the target's attenpts to run away or get closer. 

 

Even if the target has friends, the pirate only has to attack the closest one, and maintain range. 

If some other gets closer, he switches target and does the same. 

If that battle does not produce results, he can just retreat without ever risking his ship. 

I understand that it can be a problem, but that's part of the gameplay, and if any pirate does that anyone can bring similarly-equipped XS core ship to engage the pirate, and anyone with a gunner can outrange any solo pirate (or at least have the same range). The "They can always outrange us by moving away / closer" argument is not true if you have the right loadout for what you have

 

S space radar (the only radar any solo pirate can equip without gunner) have lockon ranges of;

 

  • 10km against XS core
  • 20km against S core
  • 40km against M core
  • 80km against L core

 

L space radar (if you're flying with a gunner / soloing your gunner seat) have lockon ranges of;

 

  • 40km against XS core
  • 80km against S core
  • 160km against M core
  • 320km against L core

 

You might not even need a gunner if you use a large missile with large gunner seat against a solo pirate, as you can stand up, go to the gunner seat and lock on the pirate that way as the ship cruises at the same speed and direction, the missiles have 180 degrees aiming angle and 60km max range (XS core lock range for L space radar is 40km) while an S radar can only lock as far as 20km for S core, 40km for M core and 80km for L core, so as long as you're not flying an L core ship you'll always have a good fighting chance against a solo pirate as they can't outrange you if you bring the right equipment / loadout for what you have

 

Here's how I see it;

 

  • If you're flying an XS core ship, then get your own space radar and at least a railgun, and you can have the same lock & firing range as any solo pirate flying an XS core ship (minus range from talents differential)
  • If you're flying anything larger than an XS core ship and want to not get outranged by any solo pirate, get L gunner seat, radar and weapon, and ideally bring a gunner with you
  • If you're worried that the pirate is gonna have a gunner / gunners as well, well that's part of the gameplay outside safezone

 

What I'm saying is there's really no imbalance as you can counter any pirate / attacker without being outranged if you bring the right kind of equipment for what you have, there would be an imbalance if any particular loadout / playstyle can't get countered at all, which is not the case

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39 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

What I'm saying is there's really no imbalance as you can counter any pirate / attacker without being outranged if you bring the right kind of equipment for what you have, there would be an imbalance if any particular loadout / playstyle can't get countered at all, which is not the case

The unbalance comes from freighters having to be big cores while attackers can be XS. 

That makes putting weapons on a freighter 100% useless. 

The freighter can only warp or die.... 

Radar range should allways be higher then weapons range, for any core size... 

 

Ans the onlu bonus a xs ship should have is less chance to hit it. 

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16 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

The unbalance comes from freighters having to be big cores while attackers can be XS. 

That makes putting weapons on a freighter 100% useless. 

The freighter can only warp or die.... 

Radar range should allways be higher then weapons range, for any core size... 

 

Ans the onlu bonus a xs ship should have is less chance to hit it. 

If you're in a large freighter you can always have an L radar with L gunner seat + L weapon and you can have the same range as any XS pirate as long as they're solo-gunning and as long as your large freighter is M core and not L core

 

If the XS pirate has a gunner as well, then you can bring a smaller XS core ship with a gunner as well and you can force the pirate to disengage your bigger ship as they will need to respond to your XS core ship attacking them at similar lock / firing distance

 

I do kinda agree that the different lockon ranges for different core sizes can favor some playstyles over others, but they do it so there's a counter against L ships (otherwise everyone with the means would just fly massive L ships and there's no way of defeating them if smaller ships can't outrange them, and this will force them to have smaller ships guarding them or just use smaller ships entirely)

 

Adding: And if the lockon ranges are the same across all cores as you suggested, then the current different tiers of radar system would be obsolete and everyone would just opt for railguns, and it would be a matter of who has the thickest cube ship with the most railguns instead of the possible varieties we have now

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17 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

If the XS pirate has a gunner as well, then you can bring a smaller XS core ship with a gunner as well and you can force the pirate to disengage your bigger ship as they will need to respond to your XS core ship attacking them at similar lock / firing distance

The problem with this logic is that it's not up to their freighter to decide when the engage happens and who to engage. 

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7 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

The problem with this logic is that it's not up to their freighter to decide when the engage happens and who to engage. 

Of course it's not up to the freighter, it's the pirate (attacker) which initiate the engagement, but that's just how it is and not a problem with any logic - you don't get to choose when or whether or not you'll get engaged, that's unrealistic. I'm merely saying that's what you can do to counter a pirate attacking your ship - Max radar scan range is 400km, if you see an XS pirate coming with a gunner you can deploy your XS craft which should ideally also has a gunner and the pirate will be forced to deal with the XS craft instead of shooting at the freighter

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8 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

Max radar scan range is 400km, if you see an XS pirate coming with a gunner you can deploy your XS craft which should ideally also has a gunner and the pirate will be forced to deal with the XS craft instead of shooting at the freighter

Sure. This makes guns on a freighter useless. What he needs is a escort. 

But this situation denounces the current meta. 

Only one core size is usefull in pvp. (XS) 

Only one radar size is usefull in pvp. (L) 

Only 3 weapons are usefull in pvp (rail L, M and Laser L) 

Only one shape is usefull in pvp (cube) 

 

Why do we have all those elements if those are useless? 

NQ needs to do some proper math and balance this.

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7 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Sure. This makes guns on a freighter useless. What he needs is a escort. 

But this situation denounces the current meta. 

Only one core size is usefull in pvp. (XS) 

Only one radar size is usefull in pvp. (L) 

Only 3 weapons are usefull in pvp (rail L, M and Laser L) 

Only one shape is usefull in pvp (cube) 

 

Why do we have all those elements if those are useless? 

NQ needs to do some proper math and balance this.

Not true;

 

  • M core with a gunner can have similar range as any solo XS gunner
  • S core with a gunner can outrange solo XS gunner
  • Yes XS ship with a gunner can outrange any bigger ship, but XS ship can't hold that much within the confine of 32m size and can't possibly have all the things that S-L core ships can have
  • Railguns have the worst max firing cone while something like a missile have 180 degree firing cone
  • In atmosphere max scan range is 5km and max lock range is 4km so cannons or missiles or even smaller ones can be more useful / efficient than railguns
  • Cube ships have their own flaw (too big and bulky for anything else other than space PvP, faster ships can outrun them as any ship that's not a cube can fill in more engines than cubes)

 

However I agree that M radar is useless, but S radar still has its use for solo gunner.

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Just now, joaocordeiro said:

Who is the pirate that will do piracy with XS guns? 

Thats not a pirate its a newbie. 

See my third point. XS core ships can only hold so much so it's already a pain and expensive to fit L radar, gun and seat on an XS core, not to mention the thrusters and fuel tanks needed to propel it (L railgun is about 16t) plus you can always deploy an XS ship with a gunner like I said if an XS core pirate with a gunner is coming after you

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Just now, lucagrabacr said:

See my third point. XS core ships can only hold so much so it's already a pain and expensive to fit L radar, gun and seat on an XS core, not to mention the thrusters and fuel tanks needed to propel it (L railgun is about 16t) plus you can always deploy an XS ship with a gunner like I said if an XS core pirate with a gunner is coming after you

Is it? We made one in 30min 2 weeks ago. It was even atmo capable. 

1L radar, 1 L rail, 2 seats. 

Just hold using arrow keys... 

Zero difficulty.

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1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:

There is no other pvp. And there wont be for a while. By that time NQ will probably have fixed this. So there is no point of using it as example. 

It is a planned feature so it's a valid example.

 

And to my previous point, here's my XS ship next to my L railgun, see how unfeasible it would be to get an XS ship properly working with an L railgun attached?

 

Untitled.jpg.b846ac109923fff42625ca51cc54fd94.jpg

 

That doesn't include fuel tanks, engines, L radar and gunner seat, plus all the piloting elements needed to move them

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3 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Is it? We made one in 30min 2 weeks ago. It was even atmo capable. 

1L radar, 1 L rail, 2 seats. 

Just hold using arrow keys... 

Zero difficulty.

Show me this ship you made. And are you sure it can even outrun S ship with proper thrusters? And tell me how you made it in 30 min, as L railgun and L seat each takes 19 hours to make, not to mention their materials, and L radar takes hours, unless you already have them in stock of course and you're only talking about "putting it together" time which doesn't really say anything since most of the time is coming from manufacturing them

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