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Does anyone find the game playable without owning industry?


joaocordeiro

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I'm just a solo indy person right now. Setting myself up takes priority but I have put some things on market and plan to put up warp cells and other things soon too, and I usually can undercut the existing sellers quite a bit and still make a decent profit. Just takes time to acquire resources and set up indy to mass produce things. The bugs/performance issues aren't helping either, so I imagine things to get better. Jita wasn't built in a day.

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Hey fellow Noveans,

 

I can see two passionate sides in this argument and some rather provocative stances. So please, to everyone, remember our forum rules and keep things constructive, civil and friendly. Your postings will be just as content rich if you skip the strong language and focus on the statement ;)

 

Both sides hint at valid arguments. Nobody can force anyone to associate with others just for the sake of production. On the other side, if you chose a path that leads away from civilization, you probably will struggle with supplies and have to do/create/organize more things on your own or accept long travels. At least for now.

 

A personal note on the topic, not speaking on behalf of Novaquark: as I'd like to see Dual Universe evolve, expand and prosper, I do hope for some more game mechanics in the future that give people new paths to follow. As an example and I don't even know if this is on the table: I hope that at some point there might be a player contract system that lets players complete tasks in order to gain ℏ, elements or other rewards.

 

I say this because I think statements like the above could steer this thread in more constructive direction. Please join me looking for ways to improve, rather than just to oppose each other B)

 

Thank you!

Mod-Mondlicht

 

 

Edited by Mod-Mondlicht
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14 minutes ago, Haunty said:

I'm just a solo indy person right now. Setting myself up takes priority but I have put some things on market and plan to put up warp cells and other things soon too, and I usually can undercut the existing sellers quite a bit and still make a decent profit. Just takes time to acquire resources and set up indy to mass produce things. The bugs/performance issues aren't helping either, so I imagine things to get better. Jita wasn't built in a day.

But is was not advertised that way and does not have to be that way. 

Why should players and orgs not oriented to industry have to wait for the market to grow? 

Should we just quit the game and come back 2 months from now? 

 

There is an alternative. Make bots sell items at overpriced values. 

Any player that wishes to sell its goods, can still do it with huge profit margins. And the rest of us can choose if we want to wait for a good price or if we want to set up industry ot if we dont mind paying the overpriced value. 

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In agreement with Joaco.

The point is not that DU is a cooperative game.
The point is that it is advertised in a certain way but then the gameplay forces you to follow an industrial path that for many is pure boredom.
It is good for me to overcome difficulties, but there is always to remember that this is a game: we must be able to have fun in what we do.
And I must be able to have fun even if I choose to play alone.
It would also suit me if the non-fun part was necessary but short. But industry is a cornerstone of the game today. And it's a pretty big hinge.
At this moment preventing players from buying anything on the market will only choke the game of solitary players, who will sooner or later be forced to use the industry, devoting their time to boring activities to have a few moments of fun.

Let's be clear: often real life is like this.
But this is a game.

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I have zero interest in industry.

 

I'm a pilot that also mines, literally mine tons and instant sell, made 5 different ships so far (by parts from market), latest a nice big fat hauler.  I bet I make more money faster than you.  Mining is super easy cash cow, they will probably nerf it eventually.

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The big elephant in the room can’t even be discussed properly, which will answer and most likely had this thread closed 14 responses ago. This is a direct product of that elephant and why people are rushing to get an end game item 2 weeks after release. Regardless of any discussion here, Most of us know what the real issue is, so I won’t indulge the OP on a serious response about anything.

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11 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

But is was not advertised that way and does not have to be that way. 

Why should players and orgs not oriented to industry have to wait for the market to grow? 

Should we just quit the game and come back 2 months from now? 

 

There is an alternative. Make bots sell items at overpriced values. 

Any player that wishes to sell its goods, can still do it with huge profit margins. And the rest of us can choose if we want to wait for a good price or if we want to set up industry ot if we dont mind paying the overpriced value. 

Still complaining because you flew 600SU away and didnt have a plan for elements?

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6 hours ago, pewpewpew said:

I have zero interest in industry.

 

I'm a pilot that also mines, literally mine tons and instant sell, made 5 different ships so far (by parts from market), latest a nice big fat hauler.  I bet I make more money faster than you.  Mining is super easy cash cow, they will probably nerf it eventually.

It'll be nerfed once all the bot buy orders are used up, then it'll be "true free market" conditions. Hopefully, that will mean Good Things, rather than the market being dominated by a few ultra-rich entities spending their time manipulating prices to their benefit and everyone else's detriment.

 

And to the original point: before the 20th August, I (and my Org) were of the understanding that we'd be starting with literally nothing but a few quanta, the clothes we stood up in and some cool plans. Anyone who was here for the pew pew was going to have to hold their nose, pitch in and build the setting (you know, like the whole tagline of the game said) to the point where pew pew was possible, or sit on the sidelines, logging in to update their Talent queue, until their buddies/the free market needed their pewabilitiy. "You won't need to do [whatever]" could only ever be the case once the "civilisation" was more than people scraping the basics together. That was obvious.

 

A question was asked about availability of stuff on a Moon. "When will..[stuff] be on the market there?" was asked. I would estimate that this will probably happen somewhere around the far side of never. It's a MOON. Nobody will build their industry there. The buying market won't be large enough for anyone to make a profit hauling there, with the risks (or expense of mitigating that risk) that will be involved once PVP becomes more widespread (or which are present even now, I think, for the moon in question, which lies in the PvP zone; can't be bothered to ferret about and check). Barbarians in the wastes don't get to buy stuff at markets, it's the reason they raid: to get the stuff they want.

 

You want to buy stuff, go to the Markets that have stuff for sale. Don't expect the stuff to come to your rermote and isolated chosen base. Don't expect T2 and T3 items to be available for easy money at this stage. Build something T1 and go hunt haulers round the places people are actually working for a living. Then sell that stuff on the markets. Divert the intra-org traffic into the mainstream. Be a truly mercantile Robin Hood. Tears alone will not sustain your ammo bins.

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3 hours ago, Kezzle said:

It'll be nerfed once all the bot buy orders are used up, then it'll be "true free market" conditions. Hopefully, that will mean Good Things, rather than the market being dominated by a few ultra-rich entities spending their time manipulating prices to their benefit and everyone else's detriment.

 

And exactly how will this work for new players? A free market does not automatically mean lower prices. If you have a majority of established players with lots of quanta, then a completely free market will make prices increase, not decrease. Why would for example someone having player the game for years, bother with selling fuel to newbs with hardly any profit margin (relative to where they are in the game)?

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10 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

And exactly how will this work for new players? A free market does not automatically mean lower prices. If you have a majority of established players with lots of quanta, then a completely free market will make prices increase, not decrease. Why would for example someone having player the game for years, bother with selling fuel to newbs with hardly any profit margin (relative to where they are in the game)?

It'll mean that players will have to sell their T1s to other players instead of the bots. Currently the bots provide a guaranteed minimum price. Take that away and the meganodes that are currently destined for bot-fodder will be flooding the market with resources and the price will drop. Cheaper resources will mean lower prices for made products.

The alternative is that the current mega-miners will scale back their operations, restricting the supply of T1s, and pushing up the prices on the markets which will mean newbs will be able to sell their T1s for good money and get on the Element Upgrade ladder.

 

These two scenarios are, however, mutually exclusive, and the newbies will have to adapt to whichever market condition applies. If ore sells well for good money, they should optimally look at mining. If ore is cheap, they should go into industry. People who are determined to enter industry when ore is expensive, or mine when ore is cheap are setting themselves against the forces of the market and will have to be determined, to survive and thrive.

There's an example of ore shortages going on right now, with the mining bugs. Prices are going up, and industry is starting to get starved of input. If someone were to be able to mine consistently in this climate, they could make a killing. The same would apply if the "Big Boys" decide to not sell their stuff to players later. There will be a gap between the people affected by the market conditions and those Big Boys who set them, but that's always going to be the case. Newbies, though, can choose to go with the market, or fight it.

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This is just the same question in another form. Unless is was dirt cheap, why would anyone buy T1 when they can mine their own? And if T1 is dirt cheap why would anyone sell it instead of using it on industry? And beside all this, where is the money coming from that newbs is supposed to spend on the market?

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19 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

This is just the same question in another form. Unless is was dirt cheap, why would anyone buy T1 when they can mine their own?

Because mining is a tedious, boring process. For my part, I can't mine fast enough to feed the industry I've built, because I can't be bothered filling more than one M can at a time. People will trade Quanta for their time in game.

19 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

And if T1 is dirt cheap why would anyone sell it instead of using it on industry?

Because they are mining more of it than they need?

 

While those two answers may seem to be mutually exclusive, that's because neither is an absolute. The market exists to illustrate and make use of the balance between those two tensions. When "Quanta for playtime" codes (a la PLEX from EvE), which I gather is a plan, eventually, come in, the need for quanta will, for some people, mean that they'll sell ore at almost any price, because the player is so time rich and cash-limited.

19 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

And beside all this, where is the money coming from that newbs is supposed to spend on the market?

There might be a starting curve where newbs have to do some uneconomically sustainable activity to be able to get "on the ladder", but if ore prices bottom out, so will element prices, so that should be minimal. This is probably unavoidable, in terms of game design; parachuting the new player in at "competitive" isn't going to be well recieved by the extant population.

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It's in the nature of the development of the activity in games like this.  EVE was similar, way back in 2003.  The market  at the very, very beginning was very spotty, everyone had to build their own and people were grabby over resources because no-one had any industry and the market was very barebones in terms of what was available.  6 months or so later that had changed (it will go more slowly here, because the progression frame here is slower), and the market was more stocked, people were more interested in selling, trading was beginning (buying, holding and then reselling for a higher price or playing market location arbitrage) and things like that, but in order to reach that stage, the playerbase needs to be past the stage where resources and products are so scarce that it is a subsistence/build-for-oneself-ones-own-group situation to the point where there is a continuous excess, which builds the market and lets players diversify away into different kinds of gameplay.

 

This is simply how it works when the market is almost entirely player-driven, aside from a few seeds from the developer.

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I would also like to note things actually got destroyed in EvE online.  Present gameplay when you crash you never lose your stuff. Well the game world doesn't at least. No territory warfare, your bases are all safe. No need to ever replenish your L containers. Add more maybe, but not replenish. Even in PvP if you lose your shit the enemy can get it all, and keep it. Imo we need element destruction back sooner rather than later.  At the very least in PvP and cant til things are more stable for it to happen for everyday crashes and re-entry errors. This helps the economy, especially if your pressed for time, and only needing to replace 1 or 2 items to get you mobile again, you will see people probably buying more.

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That makes sense if your goal is to PvP. But for someone more interested in creating, it just means find another game. Why should I spend countless hours in this game creating nice things, if anyone with a gun feeling slightly bored can destroy it? The mark of an advanced civilizations is to build, not make war.

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1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

That makes sense if your goal is to PvP. But for someone more interested in creating, it just means find another game. Why should I spend countless hours in this game creating nice things, if anyone with a gun feeling slightly bored can destroy it? The mark of an advanced civilizations is to build, not make war.

So I guess that means the human race isn't an advanced civilization,  cause all we do is make war.

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1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

That makes sense if your goal is to PvP. But for someone more interested in creating, it just means find another game. Why should I spend countless hours in this game creating nice things, if anyone with a gun feeling slightly bored can destroy it? The mark of an advanced civilizations is to build, not make war.

Also, I didn't only talk about pvp so what you are saying doesn't make sense. Durability and things not lasting forever. We dont use the same planes over and over. Things wear out just by using them as intended. Those things then need to be maintained then replaced. Just using scrap alone wont help. 5 years from now is it a good idea if every container ever created was still in the game? EvE Thrives on the cycle of creation and destruction. 

 

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22 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

Well as long as NQ can admit that owning industry is ,in did, 100% necessary, so new players dont buy this game with false expectations, im ok with it

Industry isn't technically necessary. You can hop onto the game, sell ore to bots, use that money to buy T1 parts from bots, build your ship, and go fly away to whatever planet you want without touching industry. 

Bots provide all of that for you.

 

For you to acquire T2 items, somebody has to have an industry, and it doesn't have to be you. We get it joao, you have tons of quanta because of the event that we can't talk about and you want to spend it on an AGG and 1000 ECUs. Get over yourself. The economy is building, players are crafting, in a couple months all T2 items will be stocked at the districts and sanctuary markets. If you want to go live with your 50M quanta on some remote moon by yourself you aren't going to have access to a booming economy, and that's your choice.

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1 hour ago, JohnnyTazer said:

I would also like to note things actually got destroyed in EvE online.  Present gameplay when you crash you never lose your stuff. Well the game world doesn't at least. No territory warfare, your bases are all safe. No need to ever replenish your L containers. Add more maybe, but not replenish. Even in PvP if you lose your shit the enemy can get it all, and keep it. Imo we need element destruction back sooner rather than later.  At the very least in PvP and cant til things are more stable for it to happen for everyday crashes and re-entry errors. This helps the economy, especially if your pressed for time, and only needing to replace 1 or 2 items to get you mobile again, you will see people probably buying more.

I disagree that it will help the market at this stage. As Alreya says, the economy has a bunch of growing to do before we're properly out of subsistence level, and destroying things at this stage would only slow that growth. At the moment, it's the supply side that's got to grow; the scarcity of everything means what stuff is for sale feels "expensive". I totally agree that there  needs to be a sink for stuff (outside of voxels and "consumables" which are the only permanently-destroyed classes of thing at the moment that's not "ore sold to bots" or "Quanta paid to bots")  to drive the demand for new stuff to be made. If cores weren't required  for a construct to exist, I'd like to see them go "poof" when destroyed, and even other elements eventually. There should be a level of damage where they get reduced to "scrap" and can only be recycled, not being worth repairing.

 

1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

That makes sense if your goal is to PvP. But for someone more interested in creating, it just means find another game. Why should I spend countless hours in this game creating nice things, if anyone with a gun feeling slightly bored can destroy it? The mark of an advanced civilizations is to build, not make war.

We don't know anything about how atmo PvP is going to work yet, so don't get all tangled up about the potential for your nice things to get blasted to scrap just yet. But it is coming (assuming the current server woes can eventually be corrected), and you're going to have to deal with it in some manner unless you remain only in Sanctuaries, as I understand it. I'm relatively confident that casual vandalism will be strongly inhibited by mechanics like "shield timers" since there are an absolute ton  of little ouitposts in existence which will very quickly go down to "planet pirates" cracking their cores and making off with the elements if there's not something in place to give the defender time to respond, and letting that happen "willy nilly" with a 24 hour-notice "PvP zones go to the centre of planets now" announcement would kill the game stone dead in about 48 hours.

 

But make no mistake, the current understood intention of NQ is that the wider world outside the Sanctuary Moons is going to become FFA PvP at some point in the development of the game. You'll need guns, either your own, or friendly, or contracted, or manipulated, to keep your gin palaces safe from other people with guns. You might get by with leverage, but you'd need a lot of different levers to cover all the acquisition-by-force outfits that will accrete.

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1 hour ago, MRog40 said:

Industry isn't technically necessary. You can hop onto the game, sell ore to bots, use that money to buy T1 parts from bots, build your ship, and go fly away to whatever planet you want without touching industry. 

Bots provide all of that for you.

 

For you to acquire T2 items, somebody has to have an industry, and it doesn't have to be you. We get it joao, you have tons of quanta because of the event that we can't talk about and you want to spend it on an AGG and 1000 ECUs. Get over yourself. The economy is building, players are crafting, in a couple months all T2 items will be stocked at the districts and sanctuary markets. If you want to go live with your 50M quanta on some remote moon by yourself you aren't going to have access to a booming economy, and that's your choice.

Well im reporting this. You just made a accusation and i cant defend my self without breaking nda.. 

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17 hours ago, pewpewpew said:

I have zero interest in industry.

 

I'm a pilot that also mines, literally mine tons and instant sell, made 5 different ships so far (by parts from market), latest a nice big fat hauler.  I bet I make more money faster than you.  Mining is super easy cash cow, they will probably nerf it eventually.

 

 

I didn't understand what you mean. I have 4 ships, 2 M core bases, and numerous industry and container pieces.
The problem is not making money: the problem is that the markets don't sell you everything.
So what you can do is limited by what the market offers you, and you are forced to use the industry to do the rest or trade with other players by adapting and hoping to find what you need.

It is not a question of speed, but of opportunity.

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