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DevBlog - r015 Udpate (part 4): Talent System!

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35 minutes ago, Thasrion said:

Okay, I might be missing something here on how these skill are trained. So the way you're explaining it, we queue skills we want to learn and they cost points to gain those skills. As we do things in the game we accumulate points over time. When we have enough points for the first queued skill we gain that skill and the next skill in the queue is moved up into the first slot? Am I seeing that correct? If that is correct, that is nothing like the Eve skill training. Each skill has a designated time to complete, this is kind of point accrual than time base, kinda. 

No thats not what NQ wrote there. If you don't have a queue running you again X amount of sp/hour. If you queue up your skills you get Y amount of sp/hour (Y > X).

 

A skill needs for example 200 sp to train => 200/Y = minutes to train that skill

OR

you have Z amount of "free" so because you haven't queued anything for 2 days thus you have 24×X sp at your disposal. Then you can just "buy" that skill.

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3 hours ago, Thasrion said:

Am I seeing that correct?

Mind you, I only had a short time yesterday to look at and understand this but...

1. If you have points stored up already in your Pool you may spend them to instantly train a skill.

2. If you have an item in your queue. You acquire points faster (currently 90 instead of 60) and they are applied to the skill at the top of the queue.

3. If you re-order the queue the points you acquire start to get applied to the new top of the queue, but the other items in the queue keep their existing progress.

4. If you have nothing in your queue your Pool grows at the slower (60) rate.

 

frankly, I think the wisest choice is queue up the basic skills right away and don't spend your pool. You will train them very fast (a matter of an hour or so) and just start playing. Add stuff to your queue as you decide you want them, but always keep something queued. Save  your existing pool for "crap, I need that NOW" moments.

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Hi all,

 

Sorry this is all very interesting with the new patch. But, I have just signed up as a Sponsor. I can not find the forum which shows the status of the servers and I am stuck on Connection Pending... anyone can direct me to the correct forum page where the status of the server is visible?

 

Thanks

Albert

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On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 6:55 AM, Nanoman said:

To those who thought there would be no skills, or that they wouldn't be time-based:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1949863330/dual-universe-civilization-building-sci-fi-mmorpg

 

Search for "skill-based character progression" about halfway down the page. It says:

 

In other words this has always been part of the plan. The kickstarter was almost 3 years ago.

So if this has been known for this amount of time, why then does the main website have no mention of it until now. Not all of us have known about the kickstarter and been "that" early group.

Besides, taking a look at the image used in the YouTube video, (Total Talent Points used, divided into the time pts allocated at the top) you would need 3.97830815018315 years to gain those points to allocate.

 

Sounds like EvE, and you login, select a skill, wait 4 years and unlock a base skill. BORING. Eve is like facepalm games, a time sink and boring as hell.

 

Now change it to a dynamic "work-up skill-system" that you earn as you use makes more sense. I'm disappointed that they're simply copy/paste EvE plagiarising

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31 minutes ago, Shealladh said:

So if this has been known for this amount of time, why then does the main website have no mention of it until now. Not all of us have known about the kickstarter and been "that" early group.

Besides, taking a look at the image used in the YouTube video, (Total Talent Points used, divided into the time pts allocated at the top) you would need 3.97830815018315 years to gain those points to allocate.

 

Sounds like EvE, and you login, select a skill, wait 4 years and unlock a base skill. BORING. Eve is like facepalm games, a time sink and boring as hell.

 

Now change it to a dynamic "work-up skill-system" that you earn as you use makes more sense. I'm disappointed that they're simply copy/paste EvE plagiarising

I wasn't there for the kickstarter and i know about it.

 

I'd probably agree about eve but not necessarily because of the skill system.

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30 minutes ago, Nanoman said:

I wasn't there for the kickstarter and i know about it.

 

I'd probably agree about eve but not necessarily because of the skill system.

Well that's all nice and good, so you know something.

 

Others don't is my point

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1 hour ago, Shealladh said:

Well that's all nice and good, so you know something.

 

Others don't is my point

Yeah I don't know why its not on the main website (if it isn't - I haven't checked). It probably should be. But anyway now you and others know too. No problemo ;)

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On 5/10/2019 at 1:41 PM, Thasrion said:

Okay, I might be missing something here on how these skill are trained. So the way you're explaining it, we queue skills we want to learn and they cost points to gain those skills. As we do things in the game we accumulate points over time. When we have enough points for the first queued skill we gain that skill and the next skill in the queue is moved up into the first slot? Am I seeing that correct? If that is correct, that is nothing like the Eve skill training. Each skill has a designated time to complete, this is kind of point accrual than time base, kinda. 

time based? please tell me we dont just pick a skill then sit back and relax for 200 hours or something until it has finished cooking, at which point you are just handed an ability?  if so i am struggling to think of the merits of such a system. as it allows anyone with enough will to click a button once, to progress with no real effort, true understanding or learning in the capability that would be handed to them in 200 hours. (hypothetical figure) this i feel is equivalent to training pets on mobile games this in stark contrast to the 'grind' method where, put simply, abilities are earned with effort, complete with the knowledge and understanding that comes with genuine experience gained putting effort into something.

 

now that im looking at it i can see a couple of pros and cons to each system. maybe with the time based system  progression and abilities are afforded to everyone regardless of 'work' ethic and the system is much simpler, no partial progression, you either have the ability or you dont.  but i think that lacks meaning and substance,  granted partial progression is much more fiddly prospect. do they have some access to the rewards of the ability even if they have not completed training? and how do you service that in game? its more complex to allow partial control or access to things that  require full training in an ability to work at their best. and what would that partial control or access look like? 

 

aside from this with the grind method its also more susceptible to exploitation, positive feedback loops and the like. then there is the societal impact of this method  will  player actions differ from the aspirations of the developers? for example diverse cities giving way to sprawling training camps or pit mines, players locked in the positive feedback loop of  repeating one simple action for hours because it is the most effective way to acquire the ability. how do you offer a more effective and  engaging alternative? 

 

and then there is the issue of EXP distribution.  can you, having accrued enough EXP, respec your character at will or worse yet on the fly?  or will there be a max achievable EXP number, upon reaching which all abilities are fully trained? what happens when everyone is fully trained in everything? i dont think that is desirable, it will put a damper on the value of cooperation. why get someone else to do it when you can do it yourself? just re spec your character.  or will they go for a system where you cannot achieve mastery of all things  at once and EXP gained in activity contributing towards an ability in a particular field erodes the EXP level in another ability? they could also have all EXP erode naturally over time without continued activity in those fields, this i think is a more organic approach similar to learning in life. you put time into something you will get better at it, at the expense of eroding or forgetting a few  other skills.  given that JC-Baillie has stated in the past he would like the accumulated skills and knowledge the player gathers to matter and have value, im surprised that Novaquark have gone for what seems to me like a very limited system, that is as i understand it not nearly as representative of true learning as the 'grind' method.

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@robert131997 Time base system skill (talent) is a system where you queue and it will take real time to train, it mean you dont need online you still able to train the skill you have pick or have talent points when you didnt queue skill.

 

The biggest pros of this skill is it bring equally yo everyone, from the one have 6-10 hour play a day to 2-3 hour play a day. This system can guarantee that all of us can have equally progression so that none will fall behind.

 

Also you know talent (skill) system just a system bonus or system specialist you know, it like upgrading your tool and your weapon but without your real practing it is useless to have high-end tool. Just like you used high-end tool drill to mine dirt or iron instead of other value resource, it just a tool nothing more and all still depend on you. Even if a "veteran" who got lot of skill but if give into the hand of amateur it just nothing more a newbie, do EVE player newbie who buy a veteran account suddenly become pro ? Doubt.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

@robert131997 Time base system skill (talent) is a system where you queue and it will take real time to train, it mean you dont need online you still able to train the skill you have pick or have talent points when you didnt queue skill.

 

The biggest pros of this skill is it bring equally yo everyone, from the one have 6-10 hour play a day to 2-3 hour play a day. This system can guarantee that all of us can have equally progression so that none will fall behind.

 

Also you know talent (skill) system just a system bonus or system specialist you know, it like upgrading your tool and your weapon but without your real practing it is useless to have high-end tool. Just like you used high-end tool drill to mine dirt or iron instead of other value resource, it just a tool nothing more and all still depend on you. Even if a "veteran" who got lot of skill but if give into the hand of amateur it just nothing more a newbie, do EVE player newbie who buy a veteran account suddenly become pro ? Doubt.

 

 

 

clarify what you mean by 'real time to train'  if your referring to actual hours minutes and so on i dont doubt they will do that 

 

but does this training time take real effort or do you just press the train button then come back in a few hours

 

also as regards the genuine knowledge of how to use a high end tool versus just getting the tool with no knowledge of how to use it, i am concerned that if people can just press the train button and come back in a few hours and get a new ability,  they haven't earned that because they haven't worked for it, and perhaps most importantly they have not worked with it so they will not be able to use it effectively. not to mention the potential damage could be caused by those who do not respect their new found abilities because they have not worked for them and as such have no understanding of how to use them safely and responsibly.

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36 minutes ago, robert131997 said:

but does this training time take real effort or do you just press the train button then come back in a few hours

Where's the real effort when you aquire skills through grinding? That's just plain boring and there's no effort involved either.

The effort you're talking about is understanding the mechanic itself- like mining or building, piloting a hovercraft or spacecraft. It's learning the ends and odds of those things which require effort and A LOT of thinking on the players part. As you said, players never worked with that new tool they have to earn it. But even with an "active" talent system, players wouldn't magically get that tool. In both systems the player gets the NEW tool at some point and for that it doesn't matter at all if he was forces to spend the last 5h using another tool which basically has nothing to do with the new one or if he just got it because he waited 5h. In both systems, the player gets a new tool and has to learn it.

 

If the player doesn't want to go that talent path any further then he wouldn't use the Tools in any way, regardless of the system you're using. 

If the player wants to go that path (say mining and digging) then he obviously has to use the tools anyway and learn how to use them, regardless of the aquiring system.

 

An "active" system doesn't automatically make everyone good in what they do just because they rinse and repeat some boring activity. 

 

So all in all those arguments aren't rly strong 

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1 minute ago, Lethys said:

Where's the real effort when you aquire skills through grinding? That's just plain boring and there's no effort involved either.

The effort you're talking about is understanding the mechanic itself- like mining or building, piloting a hovercraft or spacecraft. It's learning the ends and odds of those things which require effort and A LOT of thinking on the players part. As you said, players never worked with that new tool they have to earn it. But even with an "active" talent system, players wouldn't magically get that tool. In both systems the player gets the NEW tool at some point and for that it doesn't matter at all if he was forces to spend the last 5h using another tool which basically has nothing to do with the new one or if he just got it because he waited 5h. In both systems, the player gets a new tool and has to learn it. If the player doesn't want to go that talent path any further then he wouldn't use the Tools in any way, regardless of the system you're using. 

If the player wants to go that path (das mining and digging) then he obviously has to use the tools anyway and learn how to use them, regardless of the aquiring system. An "active" system doesn't automatically make everyone good in what they do just because they rinse and repeat some boring activity. 

 

So all in all those arguments aren't rly strong 

when i think of game 'grind' im thinking of repeating a simple action over and over again to progress towards getting a reward at the end of it the reason it often boils down to this is because the tool with which you are practising often has a narrow use case and there are limited ways to effectively train with it.

 

as for when the player gets the tool i think you are right but it would be better if it was something you could just buy or learn how to make it and  proficiency levels in  that tool require  its use and are specific to the class of tool  you wouldn't have to master the previous class of tool.

 

and if the player does not use the tool the proficiency level would erode very slowly over time  or if using a equivalent tool from a separate field the EXP for the proficiency in that tool would gradually move over to the new tool with use   for example like  using dark magic would sap EXP from your light magic skills. 

 

what im opposed to in short is a system where you click train and sit there for hours doing nothing waiting for the ability to be granted to you. timers. 

i would prefer that if you want to get better at something you have to do that something. and that you can buy all the equipment you need regardless of the complexity of the equipment with the only barrier to entry being price and availability. theres nothing you cant go and try to do, fail, and gain skill in.

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1 hour ago, robert131997 said:

when i think of game 'grind' im thinking of repeating a simple action over and over again to progress towards getting a reward at the end of it the reason it often boils down to this is because the tool with which you are practising often has a narrow use case and there are limited ways to effectively train with it.

 

as for when the player gets the tool i think you are right but it would be better if it was something you could just buy or learn how to make it and  proficiency levels in  that tool require  its use and are specific to the class of tool  you wouldn't have to master the previous class of tool.

 

and if the player does not use the tool the proficiency level would erode very slowly over time  or if using a equivalent tool from a separate field the EXP for the proficiency in that tool would gradually move over to the new tool with use   for example like  using dark magic would sap EXP from your light magic skills. 

 

what im opposed to in short is a system where you click train and sit there for hours doing nothing waiting for the ability to be granted to you. timers. 

i would prefer that if you want to get better at something you have to do that something. and that you can buy all the equipment you need regardless of the complexity of the equipment with the only barrier to entry being price and availability. theres nothing you cant go and try to do, fail, and gain skill in. 

but that's exactly my point: it doesn't really matter how you get the tool (be it either because you buy it, magically get it, train a skill over time and suddenly that tool appears). Once you have it, you have to use it anyway to get proficient with it (you as a gamer, not your char). You as a player have to learn how to use it, get familiar with it. That's purely a RL skill. So in short:

 

You propose:

you buy a tool on some kind of market then use it and gain ingame proficiency with it along with some bonuses per level increase (+5% mining yield). So while you use the tool you obviously want to use (because you bought it in the first place) you gain RL skill/sp/bonuses with it. First levels will be quite fast, higher levels will take days and weeks to finally level up.

 

What DU does:

You have certain tools available from the start and queue up your talents to train for mining over time. When you leveld up (Mining 3) you get a new tool (+5% mining yield). While you use the tool you obviously want to use (because you train that talent) you gain RL skill with it. Meanwhile you passively gain sp/bonuses because you're training the next talent level which may also be very quickly at low levels but may take days to weeks to get higher levels. You can do other stuff meanwhile ofc and you don't need to mine all day to gain sp.

 

Doesn't really change much does it? It's really the same thing but with three major drawbacks for the "active" system: you open the game to bots, you favor 24/7 nolife players and you force players to constantly do the same thing to level up that skill.

 

You will encounter a lot of timers in DU - because they're neccesary in a MMO. Just think of timers regarding PVP, destruction of a city, killing territory units and so on. You need timers there too

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4 minutes ago, Lethys said:

 

You propose:

you buy a tool on some kind of market then use it and gain ingame proficiency with it along with some bonuses per level increase (+5% mining yield). So while you use the tool you obviously want to use (because you bought it in the first place) you gain RL skill/sp/bonuses with it. First levels will be quite fast, higher levels will take days and weeks to finally level up.

 

What DU does:

You have certain tools available from the start and queue up your talents to train for mining over time. When you leveld up (Mining 3) you get a new tool (+5% mining yield). While you use the tool you obviously want to use (because you train that talent) you gain RL skill with it. Meanwhile you passively gain sp/bonuses because you're training the next talent level which may also be very quickly at low levels but may take days to weeks to get higher levels. You can do other stuff meanwhile ofc and you don't need to mine all day to gain sp.

 

Doesn't really change much does it? It's really the same thing but with three major drawbacks for the "active" system: you open the game to bots, you favor 24/7 nolife players and you force players to constantly do the same thing to level up that skill.

 

You will encounter a lot of timers in DU - because they're neccesary in a MMO. Just think of timers regarding PVP, destruction of a city, killing territory units and so on. You need timers there too

if im understanding this correctly i dont like the idea of getting a new tool  id prefer that you are granted the ability to buy it 

 

i also dont like the idea of passively gaining sp/bonuses  if you are not actively using the tool, at least gain more points under active use of the tool im  concerned about engagement 

 

i would prefer that the skill points are specific to that skill branch and can not be respeced to completely different abilities also 

 

and that certain skills that are related cannibalise each other say for example mining and scanning they share points so if you increase mining you end up decreasing scanning 

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7 minutes ago, robert131997 said:

if im understanding this correctly i dont like the idea of getting a new tool  id prefer that you are granted the ability to buy it 

 

i also dont like the idea of passively gaining sp/bonuses  if you are not actively using the tool, at least gain more points under active use of the tool im  concerned about engagement 

I adressed that and explained why it's really the same thing - we fundamentally disagree here then, that's fine

 

8 minutes ago, robert131997 said:

i would prefer that the skill points are specific to that skill branch and can not be respeced to completely different abilities also 

that's the case with either system and I agree

 

9 minutes ago, robert131997 said:

and that certain skills that are related cannibalise each other say for example mining and scanning they share points so if you increase mining you end up decreasing scanning

I disagree here too as this would be a mess for players. In a game like DU skill/talent progression and quanta are the only values which count. If you lose skills/talents you previously got then ppl will be fed up with the game and just leave as it would be extremely tedious to do something you want

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1 minute ago, Lethys said:

 

I disagree here too as this would be a mess for players. In a game like DU skill/talent progression and quanta are the only values which count. If you lose skills/talents you previously got then ppl will be fed up with the game and just leave as it would be extremely tedious to do something you want

this is nice :) i understand most of your points now please continue if you have more to discuss after this reply

 

skills are not lost they would be transferred into another skill at the expense of a related skill like 2 sides of the same coin with the intent of preventing the player from achieving mastery of all skills as this would kill the job market with no demand for specialised people 

 

it would not be an instant respec of points in order to respec your character you would need to work with the tool or task it has abilities for  this would transfer the points passively at a standard rate but the rate of transfer is increased when you are actively working with the tool or task

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5 minutes ago, robert131997 said:

this is nice :) i understand most of your points now please continue if you have more to discuss after this reply

 

skills are not lost they would be transferred into another skill at the expense of a related skill like 2 sides of the same coin with the intent of preventing the player from achieving mastery of all skills as this would kill the job market with no demand for specialised people 

 

it would not be an instant respec of points in order to respec your character you would need to work with the tool or task it has abilities for  this would transfer the points passively at a standard rate but the rate of transfer is increased when you are actively working with the tool or task

oh don't worry, I'm quite vocal and I voice my opinion ;)

 

you contradict yourself there: if a skill is respeced (even slowly) to another skill at the expense of the first one then the bonus/sp in that skill are lost. If you don't "lose" the first skill you would achieve mastery, which you don't want. That's not possible without losing the first skill.

 

Why would it kill the job market? skill mastery in all skills will take YEARS (>10years imho). Not everyone will have that. Newbros who start later can master mining in let's say 1 year to fully specialize while a veteran only has lvl4 skills there. Specialization should take time but only few characters will truly master every skill in existance - there's plenty of room for newbros to specialize and be a higher level on certain skills than vets

 

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1 minute ago, Lethys said:

oh don't worry, I'm quite vocal and I voice my opinion ;)

 

you contradict yourself there: if a skill is respeced (even slowly) to another skill at the expense of the first one then the bonus/sp in that skill are lost. If you don't "lose" the first skill you would achieve mastery, which you don't want. That's not possible without losing the first skill.

 

Why would it kill the job market? skill mastery in all skills will take YEARS (>10years imho). Not everyone will have that. Newbros who start later can master mining in let's say 1 year to fully specialize while a veteran only has lvl4 skills there. Specialization should take time but only few characters will truly master every skill in existance - there's plenty of room for newbros to specialize and be a higher level on certain skills than vets

 

im not talking about losing skills to get the next level skill im talking about branches  like mining level 123 and scanning level 123  and  your transfering all of your skill levels in mining into scanning levels 

 

regardless of time to complete, mastery of all skills would still somewhere down the line create a class of people for which the skill system has no meaning. they can drop in and out of jobs with ease and there is no challenge left at that point. its unfair to other job candidates from a skills perspective and  these people will be extremely attractive to an employer, not to mention how the complete mastery of all skills will affect your decision to team up with others. why seek the skills of another when you have mastered them all. they have nothing to offer you  expertise wise  and if everyone ultimately ends up a master of everything people will drift apart, organisations crumble  and what about the pvp aspect. for example  2 ships, one fully crewed with masters of all skills and one with specialised people. losing crew members on the mastery ship isnt nearly as much a problem as it would be on the specialist ship that seems unbalanced. 

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53 minutes ago, robert131997 said:

im not talking about losing skills to get the next level skill im talking about branches  like mining level 123 and scanning level 123  and  your transfering all of your skill levels in mining into scanning levels

well yes, and that means you lose your mining levels and don't get a bonus there anymore but you gain scanning levels. You don't lose the SP but you lose the skill perk. Or you mean that in a completely different way?

 

54 minutes ago, robert131997 said:

regardless of time to complete, mastery of all skills would still somewhere down the line create a class of people for which the skill system has no meaning. they can drop in and out of jobs with ease and there is no challenge left at that point. its unfair to other job candidates from a skills perspective and  these people will be extremely attractive to an employer, not to mention how the complete mastery of all skills will affect your decision to team up with others. why seek the skills of another when you have mastered them all. they have nothing to offer you  expertise wise  and if everyone ultimately ends up a master of everything people will drift apart, organisations crumble  and what about the pvp aspect. for example  2 ships, one fully crewed with masters of all skills and one with specialised people. losing crew members on the mastery ship isnt nearly as much a problem as it would be on the specialist ship that seems unbalanced.

few things about that to consider:

- yes some will have very high skills but it's always challenging because they only got a bonus from the talent tree to that skill (fuel efficiency for example) but that doesn't make them the best pilot there is or the best miner. You still have to know mechanics, learn and use them. That's what ppl will shine at - not their ingame bonus they get from doing something

- point 1 goes for teamwork too. I may have all mining skills at 5 because I played DU from the beginning but some newbro might be way more efficient than me because he just knows the mechanics of mining better. Talents only provide a bonus to what you do, they don't make you automatically better

- pvp: yes ofc, such things may happen. But then again CvC/AvA is a branch on it's own and you may need all those skills anyway to even learn higher ones. And besides: NQ always said that you can get fairly quickly to a reasonable talent level (3-4), mastery needs a lot of time. So this isn't "unbalanced" because most pvp skilled avatars might only miss the lvl 5 skill which only translates to maybe 5% weapon efficiency, 10% fuel efficiency or whatever

- That being said: you just have to look at eve online where there is a similar tree. I can hop into the game right now, make a new char, train for 4h and go hunt other ppl. And I can even kill them, although they have millions of SP and play the game since 15years. Just because I know what to do, how to handle my ship, how to use the game mechanics in my favor and how to trick ppl into believing smth which isn't there. Same thing can and will happen in DU imho

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I would like to see a progression system that is more real worldly. Like a talent unlock that is directly related to the actions performed. If you fly a lot you progress in being able to fly better unlocking a talent in flight. But because you fly it should have no benefit to say building or mining. Each talent progression should be directly linked to your effort in a specific area of the game. The receiving of a talent in that area would be consistent with the over all theme of an alternate universe but with consistency of a real place.

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On 5/8/2019 at 8:26 AM, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

dualuniverse_2019-05-07t16h31m44s.png__960x509_q85_subsampling-2.jpg

 

The Talent System is a time-based progression model during which you will get more and more training points. Featured as part of the talent tree is a talent queue. Based upon what talents you wish to acquire, you may queue various talents in your training queue. This will allow you to set-up, plan, and prepare your talent acquisition for an extended period of time. Should you decide not to train anything in the queue, a portion of your talent points will be saved in your talent point bank, ready to be used at any time.

@NQ-Nyzaltar

@NQ-Entropy

 

You guys need to add a scroll bar to the talent page to get down to a larger view of the queue - it is very difficult as it is to re-prioritize talents as of the last iteration of the menu, and if you are adding more talents and taking more space away from the queue itself it is going to be virtually impossible. (Example attached)

 

 

Talent-Example.png

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