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totalwiz

Combat, Is it to soon t

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I know from the preditions we are years off from seeing any form of combat in the game but the more I think of the combat the more ideas that keep popping up in my head. I know this is way earlier than it should be discussed but I just cant stop myself from amagining the possiblities

 I'm liking the idea of following the tried and trued archtypes of tank, DPS,  and support, with shields being the main focusing point.

 Think about it. 

 If you made shields that had the ability to Overclock and Underclock. shields than are non collision. and that can be boosted from support class ships. That immediately allows for a more diverse type of gameplay. For example dps fighters are going to want to be small to allow for shields to be underclocked allowing for a shield stronger while also keeping them cheap and replenish able than something like a destroyer class ship that doesn't allow for as tight of a shield and has to be overclocked and supported by a support class ship that has shielding support(lot of supports)(am I even saying that right it looks wrong). 

 What do you think. Is it too soon to speculate? 

 

 

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The initial phases of combat are planned for mid to late 2019. The DU roadmap shows this information. Now how good combat will be is still up for debate.

 

Although I like your idea of an adjustable shield it just seems to complicated to implement in my opinion.

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I do like adjustable shields, especially in terms of capacity, recharge rate, and recharge delay.  Maybe we can have different elements that contribute to each stat individually (like having multiple different kinds of fuel tanks).  Though, I'm not quite sure what you mean by Overclock / Underclock.  Is there a reference for what that is in another lore?

 

 

My main interest in combat is how the infantry combat is going to play out.  imagine assaulting a defender that can literally just (re)place cover / walls.  And then, there are recreating iconic feats like Master Chief floating through space to deliver a bomb.

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8 hours ago, geronimo553 said:

The initial phases of combat are planned for mid to late 2019. The DU roadmap shows this information. Now how good combat will be is still up for debate.

 

Although I like your idea of an adjustable shield it just seems to complicated to implement in my opinion.

Yes OP, that's Alpha 3, so if NQ are on time, then we'll be seeing some combat implementation within 12 months from now. Account for some likely dev delay, it still should hover around about ~1yr + or - some months. So still less than years ie 1.x yrs is a healthy expectation.

 

As to combat, I don't think it will follow a regular RPG form of combat? What we do know is that one of the original EVE designers is now working on DU with NQ so that might influence some of the combat systems? Seems a fair bet.

 

That said, there's some very different game play factors which it is possible to speculate on with no little degree of future relevance: A large ship NEEDS a large crew to successfully fire all weapons. And repair "on-the-hop/double" mid-battle. This multiple human input into a sizeable craft and they can scale enormously from 1-person to >50ppl (we don't know how many actual weapons and systems a ship can carry (I presume they'll STUFFED full of them though given the sizes we're talking about and the room to hold lots of people (hopefully doing something useful!). So big ships more like death stars vs x-wing/tie-fighter: I put my money on the death star ship.

 

Then think about a similar sized-ship with low quality equipment vs one with the best quality (this too will be wide in range).

 

It comes down to the behemoth ships likely requiring a huge industrial-complex BACKING them to then kick ass against other ships in space ship battles. Obiously a well run org too with good organization of players.

 

As to solo-ships: It seems GREAT VARIETY might be possible at this scale of battle. I don't think it will come down to some sort of dog-fight star-wars battle but more like something from Space Engineers Eg

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4 hours ago, Borb_1 said:

I don't think it will come down to some sort of dog-fight star-wars battle but more like something from Space Engineers Eg

Just saying, I've had some amazing small scale star-wars like dogfight battles  (kind of like what you see in the more recent movies, Rogue One, Solo, and Last Jedi...also specifically recreating Hoth).  It's actually really cool to see someone get shot down while in atmo or low orbit and their ship just goes deadstick and augers in.  It also makes the battlefield look really cool after a while (and cripple the server).

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4 hours ago, Borb_1 said:

 

As to solo-ships: It seems GREAT VARIETY might be possible at this scale of battle. I don't think it will come down to some sort of dog-fight star-wars battle but more like something from Space Engineers Eg

 

That is my theory as well, DU mirrors many aspects of SE and I can see the gameplay being similar. 

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My only gripe about space engineers combat is the autoturrets.  I don't mind them specifically, just what people end up doing with them, and that the only way to make a ship harder to assault is to just place more.  If they had a large placement deadzone or if you could limit the amount you can place somehow, sure; but never cover the entire ship with them like a Tiki Marine

ie. from Ark:

https://goo.gl/images/jqtPJm

 

I feel like turrets should operate like in StarMade.  Where there you're given a reason to have bigger and fewer turrets (mostly due to power and size constraints).

 

 

On another note, I do hope there is ample opportunity to have multiple classes and types of ships fighting. I always love the combined arms part of combat.

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1 hour ago, Odendis said:

My only gripe about space engineers combat is the autoturrets.  I don't mind them specifically, just what people end up doing with them, and that the only way to make a ship harder to assault is to just place more.  If they had a large placement deadzone or if you could limit the amount you can place somehow, sure; but never cover the entire ship with them like a Tiki Marine

 

 

I also agree, there really needs more diversity in SE. However since DU uses control cubes, the devs can craft turrets designed specially for land constructs and for ships. So hopefully we will see a larger diviserity in turrets here. 

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Here's to hoping there will be ballistic weaponry that are properly influenced by physics and impart physics forces.  It's hard on the server, but i bet it'll look awesome when two large masses collide.

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8 hours ago, Odendis said:

Here's to hoping there will be ballistic weaponry that are properly influenced by physics and impart physics forces.  It's hard on the server, but i bet it'll look awesome when two large masses collide.

No, no physical projectile objects. It's a set of parameters with variables: Then it becomes a statistical abstraction. The players have to use the parameters eg proximity, aiming possibly (ie target locking) and then rely on the variables eg bigger guns have a longer range than smaller guns of the same type, checking any other factors eg speeds, directions maybe? Then chug out the animation and hit result/damage resolution etc. The servers can handle this and scale up.

 

Like you said, it's too hard on the server for an MMO where N interactions quadratically increases in proportion to N (number of acting objects interacting ie just visualizing each other is interacting for example).

 

What I would like to see is some sort of FURTHER abstraction where players on consoles in ships are doing something interesting to use their ship systems in combat. Eg a scanner produces a sort of *Battle Ships!** screen or hologram and players can simply choose different dot locations to predict where the enemy ship is moving to (on a 2D screen) to fire their missiles/lasers and see if they OUTSMART and hit directly full impact the ship. So it's COGNITIVE as opposed to fake point and click repetitions/cycles. Though those can still be used for the fake missiles which might be more of a shot-gun type weapon, blitzing a general area of effect for example. Some sort of Space Sonar scan to gather information (better scanner better info etc). Then have all the counter measures and more.

 

Of course solo-ships likely have less sophisticated combat systems and rely on good ol faithful lock and aim and buzz around pew-pewing.

 

For large ships, think Captain Sonar, more than Buck Rogers.

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Yea, I have this weird pipe dream of using a mass driver on one planet, and sending the round through a gravity field of another to hit a planet behind the 2nd.  I was thinking more of physical artillery than machine gun or battery fire.  If it isn't in the game then someone's bound to try to make a construct out of it (like the gravel launchers from space engineers).

 

I know they've said combat is supposed to be less twitch based and more lock on based, but I really hope its more like Armored Core, where you get a Lock Box rather than just a tab target system. 

 

I also hope that if there are any kind of AI turret they are limited to static constructs.  The way this could work for larger crew served ships is that the WSO can designate targets for turrets, which abstracts responsibility.  It makes commanding a ship more important as you have to delegate responsibilities properly to your pilot staff and weapons staff.  It also brings in actual real life skill factors rather than just level up points.

 

But I'll admit my biases though, in loud combat, I'm more of a small cavalry teams kind of person.  I know people are going to build massive crew served ships, and I really hope there's a way for them to relay targeting and maneuver information to me.

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On 12/17/2018 at 5:13 PM, Odendis said:

My only gripe about space engineers combat is the autoturrets.  I don't mind them specifically, just what people end up doing with them, and that the only way to make a ship harder to assault is to just place more.  If they had a large placement deadzone or if you could limit the amount you can place somehow, sure; but never cover the entire ship with them like a Tiki Marine

ie. from Ark:

https://goo.gl/images/jqtPJm

 

I feel like turrets should operate like in StarMade.  Where there you're given a reason to have bigger and fewer turrets (mostly due to power and size constraints).

 

 

On another note, I do hope there is ample opportunity to have multiple classes and types of ships fighting. I always love the combined arms part of combat.

I think the best way to balance out all the aspects of combat is to make everything combat related reliant on a power-source. Ie. if things like turbo lasers, and shields required a reactor of sorts, and possibly supplant fuel powered engines for reactor powered engines too you'd have to take into consideration the size, weight, dimensions of your ship as you're adding in turrets or creating your shield grid.  If you spam turrets, fine, but you'll be shield-less while you're firing because they're using up all the power.  I feel this would help to balance combat significantly.

 

Additionally, making power consumption the primary factor in combat, really emphasizes the advantages that planet side emplacements should have over ships/space fleets.

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Well I was gonna make a post on the same thing, but I'll ask this here since we are already on the topic of combat. My question would be geared towards the more up close and personal style of combat in terms of wondering how engaging would the actual player on player combat be? Is it just going to be a straight fps style or will there be 3rd. person view like in DayZ or how would that work in terms of the ground game combat? Most importantly will I be able to open fire on someone if I don't like the direction the conversation is going? Lmao!!!! :D

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